No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jun 00 - 03:56 PM

Max, could you EMail me an update? I'm a UK copyright lawyer. Legal Eagle was my alter ego (for when I wanted to be someone else)! For future reference, I assume the 'cat is a corporation. If not it should be. You need personally to be able to distance yourself from it should the fewmets hit the windmill. I don't have a huge amount of time to do pro bono stuff and of course (although I did once read Nimmer from end to end) US law is not my native scene.

If there is a problem I wonder if InoBU and I could be of at least some use?

I do agree that NOTHING which might be of use to the enemy should be posted. This includes the identities of contributors. If the enemy do sue and win, they might try to get at contributors. I'm not posting how on the site.

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Easy Rider
Date: 12 Jun 00 - 02:23 PM

Meanwhile, is anybody gonna help the nice guys at Tabledit?

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Jun 00 - 04:52 PM

For all of you who DON'T LISTEN to MUDCAT RADIO (and you should)........The latest update on the HFA saga is in the beginning of the June 7 episode. max will also give you a little more info on how YOU can reach old Harry's boys yourself. Most of the stuff on this thread is dated and as said above, there have been several other threads on the subject. Check out the radio archive.

Spaw

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 11 Jun 00 - 04:41 PM

Seems to me that would involve, in significant part, closing Mudcat access to guests. Possibly requiring some sort of initiation fee?

Also, I'm not sure of the legal judgmnent made that a private club would be free from liability. Even if that's a good legal principle, HFA et al. could still make a durn (read expensive) nuisance (at least) by legally attacking whether Mudcat is legally a private club. Lots of worms in that can.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Sailor Dan
Date: 11 Jun 00 - 03:28 PM

Max

When I sent in my Contribution, I also sent you a private message regarding making Mudcat a private club. I just read in "Is napster a good thing" something by Mark Clark on 6-11 at 2:16 that might help in keeping these guys off mudcats back.. It appears its alright if its in a private club to exchange music which includes lyrics of new songs and older songs, probably most of the copyrighted. I might be wrong in my reasoning, but is it worth a chance that it is right??

Sailor dan

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Pixie
Date: 11 Jun 00 - 10:40 AM

Suggestion for those who want to contribute to the cause but don't want to send VISA, etc. Go to bank, get "World Money Order" for US funds (it would be in US funds?)for the amount you want....send off to Mudcat, and Bob's your Uncle....same as cash.....no fees at Mudcat end.

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: GUEST,Harry O'Prey
Date: 10 Jun 00 - 08:27 PM

Thank you. MichaelK. What have I done to reduce you to obscenities ? Harry

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: SeanM
Date: 10 Jun 00 - 07:09 PM

For everyone who missed this when it happened close to a year ago, things aren't as bad as they seem on this thread.

There are probably 4-5 threads that followed this one (due to length), updating the story from the letter exchange to the current state.

If I remember correctly, I believe that Mudcat and the DT are currently "off" the hitlist, but HFA ARE aware of both of them - probably even more so than other servers, as Max didn't just roll over and give up.

Contributions will probably always be welcome, though. Just 'cause they went away once doesn't mean they won't be back again.

M

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: paddyc
Date: 10 Jun 00 - 05:53 PM

Those cold bastards!

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 09 Jun 00 - 06:36 PM

Good letter Max but a bloody shame that you can't get them to name the artists involved -I'd be prepared to swear an oath never to sing any of their songs again or buy another CD by that artist, never attend another concert or buy another song book ...cc donation on it's way

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: GUEST,Chris Flint
Date: 09 Jun 00 - 05:00 PM

Hi having recently discovered Mudcat I would be seriously pissed off if the faceless money grabbers win and caused any limitation in Mudcat. good luck

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: MK
Date: 09 Jun 00 - 04:57 PM

Here is the link.
(Sorry for the above screw up.)

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: MK
Date: 09 Jun 00 - 04:56 PM

Not to worry.

Here is a mirror site containing a lot of the best tablatures, that the Tabledit people were forced to remove from their site.

Gotta love it.

(By the way, fuck you Harry!)

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Easy Rider
Date: 09 Jun 00 - 04:12 PM

The Harry Fox Agency strikes again!

They have attacked the TablEdit Web site, www.tabledit.com intimidating them into removing ALL of their tablature files.

The TablEdit guys could probably use som advice from Max on how to fight back. Max, would you contact them?

Thanx

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Oct 99 - 07:21 PM

Okay, Fielding, ya owe me!**BG** For the next chapter, click here. This one was getting WAY too long. Thanks, Rick.

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: JedMarum
Date: 26 Oct 99 - 03:24 PM

Max - will you let us know what response you get from your letter?

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Sapper_RE
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 02:33 PM

To Seed (and anyone else!!) If you are likely to be visiting the Derbyshire Dales, you are welcome to drop me a note and we'll arrange a meeting either at a local pub, or in the Real Ale emporium of the Brunswick in Derby. There are usually several varieties of "black nasty stuff" there, not just the one everyone knows about!!! Bob

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: KathWestra
Date: 20 Oct 99 - 05:56 PM

Max -- How're we doing on the contributions side? Keep us posted, o.k.? And do let us know when/if you hear from them varmints. Sorry about the car, but GLAD its contents were undamaged! Kath

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Max
Date: 19 Oct 99 - 04:45 PM

OK, the letter is off Certified. Meant to mail it Monday, but I was in a minor traffic accident that left me stuck out of town for a couple days. Luckily, only my vehicle was injured. Will let you know more when I get a response. Thank you all for your support and contributions.

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From:
Date: 19 Oct 99 - 04:29 AM

Check this out. Hope the blue clicky thing is right!

OLGA

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Felipa
Date: 18 Oct 99 - 02:30 PM

I think the copyright police are not acting in the best interests of the artistes; the net result of the Mudcat Forum is probably an increased purchase of books and recordings. Participants often recommend particular publications and recordings and sometimes we actually hear from people who have made purchases as a result of these recommendations. Indeed Mudcat exploits this tendency with those irksome green shop labels in the threads. Although I can't make the same argument for the database, the DT and the forum are complementary to each other and at the end of day I reckon Mudcat is beneficial to the music business.

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Jeri
Date: 18 Oct 99 - 10:58 AM

I have a wee song I'll be sending off to Max.

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 18 Oct 99 - 09:41 AM

Harlow, I like it!

T.

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 99 - 09:08 AM

I haven't worked out how to send money across the Atlantic, so here's my contribution. It's a new set of words to a song I've been singing a long time now (which I'm sure you've got in the Digital tradition. I just wrote to fit the situation.

The Mudcat was so busy out there on the net Hanging out those songs for anyone to get But then a letter came from someone in the name of Harry Fox And he said "We're going to catch you, going to put you in a box" - But the Cat came back the very next day, The Cat came back, they thought he was a gonner, But the Cat came back, he just couldn't stay away.

"Now I've heard you cats a-singing, you keep singing like you're free, But those songs that you keep singing are my private property, But if you keep caterwauling then I'll catch you by the tail, And I'll take you to the cleaners, and I'll put you into jail" – But the Cat came back the very next day", The Cat came back, they thought he was a gonna, But the Cat came back, he just couldn't stay away.

But from every nook and cranny all the cats began to creep. And the cats they started singing, woke the dead from out their sleep, And the dead joined in the chorus, sang the songs that they left behind, And if you say that you own them, then you've surely lost your mind - And the Cat came back the very next day, The Cat came back, they thought he was a gonna, But the Cat came back, he just couldn't stay away.

Hit the road, Fox, and don't you come back, no more, no more, no more, no more, Hit the road Fox, and don't you come back no more.

MIIAAOWW

October 18th 1999 copyright Kevin McGrath, and with full permission to Mudcat and Digital Tradition to do what they like with it.

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Tom on Comfort
Date: 18 Oct 99 - 02:18 AM

Max, good luck & blessings & right on! And a check in the mail

Tom

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 18 Oct 99 - 02:02 AM

We have ILS. Francophone, OLGA, Mudcat--what other sites have been approached? Which one have altered and deleted contents, and which have been shut down?

I am particularly interested in the products and services that HFS and NMPA offer for sales--

I am something of an activist. organizer, and general troublemaker--I know that if you want to change anything, you have to make people believe that they must take you seriously, and to do that, all you have to do is show them that you can have a negative impact on their cash flow--

If the publishers are persuaded that their financial intersts are being adversely affected by HFS, their game, which has been going on for a couple of years, and has destroyed many, if not most of the non-commercial music resources on the web, will end very quickly--

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Max
Date: 18 Oct 99 - 12:05 AM

Well Joe, at least we see what their strategy is. Again, you can send contributions to The Mudcat Cafe, 5 W. Gay St. Suite A, West Chester, PA 19380. No idea how much this is gonna take.

Legal advice? Only what we got here so far. Grass roots is the way this is gonna go. I'm gonna go as far as I can without it. Seems to me that 2 wrongs don't make a right, no need to get another lawyer involved. Even if it goes to court, I'll probably at very least be co-counsel. What I am doing is right, that is what I will stand on till they kill me. No worries folks, nothing is going to stop us, we will make them understand.

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Pauline L.
Date: 17 Oct 99 - 11:57 PM

Max,

What's the current plan of action? Have you gotten sound legal advice? The latter is crucial.

Re my check: To whom do I make it out? Where do I mail it?

Do you have any idea of how much money we will need?

I have faith in Mudcatters. We'll do whatever it takes.

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Oct 99 - 11:19 PM

Well, what happened to the International Lyrics Server is sad. Click here to see what's left of it. You can't copy the lyrics, and they're displayed so fast it's hard to just read them. These money people are cutting their own throats by trying to dump something like that on the public.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Max
Date: 17 Oct 99 - 10:59 PM

Good thing is, the Mudcat does not own a single computer. We rent. Trust me folks, if this goes to hard ball, I'm ready!

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: j0_77
Date: 17 Oct 99 - 09:34 PM

ILS - I doubt that they paid anybody - they did make a deal with some half butt outfit hawking cds by untracable artists -Hairy Fox again- LOL.

Where do NPMA & al get those horrid recordings? Who buys that junk?

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Sail
Date: 17 Oct 99 - 08:57 PM

Max, I'm sending a check out tomorrow morning. Penny M.

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 17 Oct 99 - 08:34 PM

Anybody seen Guy Wolff? He skipped town ever since I donated to Mudcat & requested one of his lovely pots.
Little Neo

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: bet
Date: 17 Oct 99 - 07:33 PM

Wow! I havenb't been in the mudcat for awhile and get on and this is on the top of the list. Max, what a deal. sounds fishy to me but i really don't know. will send a check on Wednesday, payday. Actually I'll send it tomorrow yu won't get it before Wed. which if you haven't guessed is pay day. bet

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 17 Oct 99 - 07:21 PM

T, for "not a lawyer," you sure do a good job of covering your arse (and you offer excellent advice).

And Sapper, we haven't heard from you in a hell of a long time. Drop in the pub and I'll buy you "a proper of the vile black stuff," if that's to your taste. If you prefer something drinkable, it's still on me. --seed

And Max, I'm buying in the auction and as soon as I take some pictures and get them processed, I'll offer a couple of my little-used instruments, as well. Also, I tried to get onto the secure server and spent about five minutes watching the aol triangle go round and round, so I'll get a check in the mail, too.

--seed

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 17 Oct 99 - 06:39 PM

jO_77, I heard the ILS is still on line because it made a deal with the rightsholders and paid up.

On the other point, I know that a copyright plaintiff can get (and sometimes has gotten) a preliminary injunction allowing it to seize the alleged infringer's computer. I wouldn't be surprised if some statutes, such as the No Electronic Theft Act, allow the Justice Department to do the same thing. I can't cite any such provision (if it exists) by Title & Chapter. But, as I said, it wouldn't surprise me.

T.

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: j0_77
Date: 17 Oct 99 - 03:04 PM

Acually T they can and do ban servers connected to the internet which provide access to illegal material so the USA authorities can disconnect servers! I do not know the exact mechanics of it but I understand it is quite complicated.

The ILS is probably still on line through the good will of the government of the host country. It is the case that in some countries Fair Use laws are much much more liberal and it would not be Legal for the USA to act in these places. Hence they do not because they cannot.

A good case is material online in Holland and Findland both in the EU - and bound by their stict rules. Here I mean really naughty stuff warez etc!!

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: j0_77
Date: 17 Oct 99 - 02:51 PM

Hi Max, it says in the Bible judge em by their actions ...it is very good advice :0)

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Max
Date: 17 Oct 99 - 02:36 PM

The NMPA Web site has a press release about them suing the International Lyrics Server in Sweden. Didn't slow-em down a bit.

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 17 Oct 99 - 02:24 PM

lloyd61: my (possibly incomplete or flawed) understanding is that if the lyric database is outside the USA, it is beyond the direct reach of US laws. (But remember, I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, does not establish a lawyer-client relationship, etc.) Depending on the state of copyright relations between the US and the country where the database resides, parties who fancied themselves infringed might be able to bring actions in the other country's courts. Also if the other country is a member of the World Trade Organization, the US might be able to use the WTO mechanism to make thing unpleasant for the other country.

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: lloyd61
Date: 17 Oct 99 - 10:04 AM

Max.......The check will be on the way in the morning.

One question: What happens if the Lyric data base is in another country?

lloyd61

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Matthew B.
Date: 17 Oct 99 - 08:52 AM

So let us know when you send it, Max. We're all eager to hear the outcome.

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Alan of Australia
Date: 17 Oct 99 - 04:55 AM

Good reply Max. Also a Visa contribution is on the way.

Cheers,
Alan

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Haggie
Date: 17 Oct 99 - 12:12 AM

Hi Folks, Thats quite an uproar. Good ol' dollar. Maybe we can use some of the other pressure that works well in this society: refusal to do business with about 700 members of the NMPA, and let them know about it. Would have to find out who they all are, and personally write, call (most of them will have 800 numbers) or email them with a firm statement that you and all your very musically active aquaintances will not have any business relations with any of them until they cease and desist from such harrassment. Now it's just like with Monsanto and the seeds they steal from natives all around the world, including our own Western culture heritage seeds, and want to monopolize them. Folksongs, or those that start out commercially and then become folksongs due to their popularity, are property of the people who sing them. How many popular songs can be traced back to that one or several anomymous author(s), one version or another? Just a hurried emotional thought. Good Luck.

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: annamill
Date: 16 Oct 99 - 11:46 PM

Max, I've not written because right now I'm a little low, but come Thursday I'll be able to help with at least $50. I have the address. The letter sounds great, but I'm not a lawyer, thank goodness. We'll weather this.

That reminds me. Is everyone ok with the hurricane?

Love, annap

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Lesley N.
Date: 16 Oct 99 - 10:04 PM

Thanks T - I'm familiar with the EFF (though I haven't been to their site in a while - so I will check it out again). On your recommendation (I'm pretty sure) in another thread I checked out Professor Karjala's site a while back. I can't recommend it highly enough. It makes the incomprehensible understandable. Wish I'd known about it when the fight was on!

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: JedMarum
Date: 16 Oct 99 - 10:00 PM

Great letter Max!

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 16 Oct 99 - 09:46 PM

LesleyN, a site I forgot to mention in my last post is the site for the Electronic Frontier Foundation in which John Perry Barlow is so prominent.

T.

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: MaryLee
Date: 16 Oct 99 - 09:33 PM

Long and interesting thread. Well, most of it is interesting. Well written response, Max. OCTMA goes through the discussions of which non/not-for profit entity it should be almost every new Prez and Board term.

Trying to keep it all "legal" is a hassel. Glad I'm just the NL Ed. :)

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 99 - 06:37 PM

Good luck with all this, and I hope the site doesn't have to go into exile to somewhere outside the American Empire.(Which includes England, where I'm writing this) I've just been checking the National Music Publisher's Association website. Even aside from the issues of principle, it really is bloody useless as a way of finding any interesting songs, and extremely irritatating to find your way round in it.

You're not alone in this, as of course you already know - I came across a lovely site with lyrics of French chansons, http://www.math.umn.edu/~foursov/chansons/index.html, and it's had to give up including some of the best chansonniers around (including Jacques Brel), for just these kind of reasons. But of course those were songs which were definitely written by identifiable people, and most of the songs on Mudcat/DT are either traditional, or written by people who would be proud to be seen as of the tradition, and thus included in the hall of honour.

(In the unlikely event that you ever feel like including any of the songs I've written, you hereby have my irrevocable permission to do so.)

Kevin McGrath [e-mail] www.bigfoot.com/~kevin.mcgrath