Getting on the bottom rung

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: Vic Smith
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 07:23 AM

There's some pretty frightening things going on at the moment. Yesterday I received a brand new CD through the post from a superb five piece band. I played it straight away and it was excellent.
Where are these guys on the ladder? About half way up, I'd have thought. Three of the names are pretty well know from other bands they have been in and I have reviewed albums by them enthusiastically in three different folk music publications.

The frightening thing? With that album came a note. - Hope that you like our album and will review it. We would love to have a gig at your club and would not expect to be paid.

I will probably put it to the others involved in running the club that we should book the band but we will expect to pay them! I don't think that I could live with myself if I were to ask them to travel from a different county, play two sets and then say, "Thanks, lads, that was great! Now off you go."

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: johncharles
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 06:14 AM

Dear Like a complete unknown, I have been on mucat for some time and I don't know you. so how will I ever be able to give you feedback.
I have been playing with a couple of friends the last 5 years. We play what we want to play and have been lucky in getting a few gigs at clubs and festivals (good contacts help with this). we attend our local club and run a fortnightly slow session. we also made our own luck; we set up our own session in a local pub which has been running for 18 months.
Playing a beer festival tomorrow hoping for some free beer.

string theory
I guess you have to make it happen for yourself no one else will.
We are amateurs with a shared love of music, we play in order to have fun and if along the way we get a gig or two or an occasional payment that is a bonus. we like this rung on the ladder. John

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 05:32 AM

'I am however large and very ugly which may put some people off'

I think you may well have inadvertently stumbled over your unique selling point -

'Quasimodo - a smile, a song and a hump in the back of the van....'

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: GUEST,Like a complete unknown
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 04:43 AM

Recognition? Yes. Money? Not too fussed--I'm not even dreaming of going pro--EXCEPT that the money's a token of recognition--if they pay you they probably like you (if they pay you twice, anyway). Applause? Yes. Yes please. Had it, loved it. But it has to be for something I chose to do--which comes back to recognition.

"If folk clubs don't like what you do, conform or forget it and move on"

Thanks for that--lightbulb moment!

I've known for a while that I could get a spot at my local FC if I was half as good a guitarist as I am a singer. (The problem is I don't play guitar, and getting to that sort of standard from scratch would take years.) But I've always seen their tendency to prefer guitarists unaccompanied singers as a fault on their part--or a terrible injustice if I'm in Kevin-the-Teenager mode--and it's not really. It's just what they like--accept it and act accordingly (find somewhere else or get a guitar and start learning).

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 04:24 AM

Just like to feel I'd moved on a bit in terms of recognition from the complete unknown who got up nine years ago.

So... is this what you want: recognition? Or is it money? Or is it that adrenalin rush that comes from a burst of real applause at the end of a song? Or all three? Only you can decide.

Al's comments about folk clubs are, as ever, interesting. The folk scene is complex, unlike others I've played in. Here's an example: When I played in a 1950s rock'n roll trio - the real stuff, by the way, nothing earlier than 1956 and nothing later than about 1961 - work was plentiful, and still is. We played Trades & Labour clubs, Con clubs, Working Men's clubs, British Legions, etc. in Sussex, Surrey, Hampshire, Kent and south London. We did support for name acts of the time like Showaddywaddy, Matchbox and Bernie Flint. We played showcase R'nR weekends in wintertime holiday camps, monthly stints in local pubs, golf clubs, tennis clubs, rugby clubs, Sergeants' Mess functions for the Parachute Regiment in Aldershot and for the Military Police in Chichester. We did gigs for social clubs of all kinds - prison officers at Ford Open Prison, pilots at the Beehive Club at Gatwick, birthday parties, wedding receptions, etc, etc., etc. In the immortal words of Mick Jagger about the early Stones: We knew we were bloody good. We played several nights a week and made quite a bit of money - even paid tax on it! After 13 years of this, I quit it - utterly tired of making music. Took a break, joined a Southern Soul band for fun, played once a month for peanuts, and let the music flood back into me. But note this: that scene is still available. There are rock'n roll clubs all over southern England and it would be no problem to get a band again and get work again - which I don't want to do. In short, the venues were/are incredibly varied - but the music is utterly consistent: 1956 to 1961, full stop.

The folk scene is, IMO the reverse. Every club I've been to - and I've been to them all over the place - has a different take on the music and a different atmosphere and ethos. They're usually run by individuals or a small band of individuals - all hard working and dedicated (otherwise they wouldn't be doing it) who have their own idea of what they want their club to be. You have to fit into this somewhere and gauge the market for what you do. You either perform what you think these people want - or you do your own thing regardless and see where it gets you. As far as folk clubs are concerned, I've always performed what I have personally liked and taken whatever outcome that implies. You have to make that kind of decision - and also abide by the outcome. If folk clubs don't like what you do, conform or forget it and move on - form your own club, play in a rock'n roll trio, join a blues band, get a duo and do covers in pubs, be a singer-songwriter...

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: cooperman
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 04:21 AM

It's a big step going from a couple of songs to 45 minutes. I built up with a few charity events to start with. The organisers are looking for people to fill up the bottom of the bill and volunteers are usually gratefully received. You don't get paid but that works both ways - if it doesn't go well you don't feel you've let anyone down particularly or guilty about taking the money. You gradually get used to doing longer slots, your confidence builds up and you get known (and you help a worthy cause). Just a suggestion.
The other thing is, unless you are spellbinding, you need some variety to keep people interested. There are some instruments that are relatively easy to learn (washboard!!!) and you can throw in a couple of songs on those.

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: GUEST,Banjiman
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 03:39 AM

...... have you ever asked anyone if you could do a gig at their festival/ club/ venue?

If not, how do they know that you want to do one?

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: GUEST,Like a complete unknown
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 03:21 AM

Wow--that's a lot of replies! Thanks all.

Tootler--no, on balance, I don't. It would be ridiculous to think I could be a success in this field. People much more talented than me scrape a living at this stuff or can't even do that. My dream is just to be asked to perform somewhere and come away with money in my pocket, and to shift a few CDs/downloads. Bottom rung!

johncharles--just to be clear, I don't want to stay anonymous; I am known on Mudcat and my music is available online, under my real name. (41 plays last week. No downloads.) But I want to stay anonymous ON THIS THREAD, so that I can say things that would embarrass me otherwise and people can respond honestly.

From floorsinger to full 'spot', that's the hurdle I'm falling at. Maybe Al's right and it would have happened by now if it was going to.

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 10:24 PM

{{{{{hug Bruce}}}}

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 09:06 PM

"Just like to feel I'd moved on a bit in terms of recognition from the complete unknown who got up nine years ago."

A whole nine years? Listen up: nine years ain't nothin' in music.

One of my three 'best' friends is one of the greater musicians I have ever heard. He's a good performer, becoming a great songwriter, and he can play guitar better than most in about five genres.

Another friend is one of two greatest guitar players I ever met; the other greatest is mentioned earlier. He is a tremendous back-up guitar player and he makes me sound twice as good as I will ever be. In fact, we play together when we get the chance because we love playing together. We have so much fun doing that that it will no doubt be declared illegal. I was asked a few years back by another 'musician' if I didn't feel insecure playing with someone of his quality, the implication being that I was overshadowed. I said, "Tell me, did you like the performance?" He replied, "It was great." I then asked if he went out of his way to find back-up people who were weaker than him so he would be the best thing on the stage? Silence. More silence. As I left I said, "I am honoured to work with people better than me, and when THEY don't want to work with me anymore, then I'll know it's time to pack it in."

I write songs, and so many people don't like them I have often wondered if I should qui--in fact I quit music in 1980 and didn't get back to it until about 2005 with the help of people like Amos Jessup, Bill Garrett, Ron Bankley. I know I will never be famous. I listen to people like Bob Knight and Kathy Stewart and Joanne Crabtree and wonder why I think I could ever be so arrogant to think I'm in their class as a singer. I know I'm not, but that isn't what matters.

As I deal with self-induced lung cancer, I am about to do a gig with the two best musicians I ever met, and I intend to hit a sustained note that lasts for 45 of 48 beats in a moderately-paced song. I can do that, and hold the note. So, how many people you know can do that? But, how many people give a shit! Almost none.

You stop looking for help here and instead write me at

irishancestry @ gmail . com

I'll "i'll gie ya a han, jimmy"

BM

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: GUEST,Tony Rath aka Tonyteach
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 07:57 PM

Interesting thread. I have working as act doctor to a newish duo called Monkton Wyld who work the London clubs. Luke is a very very good guitarist and entertainer who writes good songs and has a partner who plays a number of instruments and sings very well. They have been working the circuit for a year and have made progress BUT it is a hard grind and all the advice above applies.

Interested in Al Whittles points - I am a good all round guitarist and singer and piano player I have worked as an actor and MC and do not suffer with the nerves. Adrenalin yes - fear no Maybe its time I had a go. I can play fingerstyle blues - pick blues -flat picking - flamenco - fingerstyle guitar - classical - boogie - blues and jazz piano - bass and also a trained singer. I am cheap reliable and available. in the London area. I am however large and very ugly which may put some people off

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: johncharles
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 07:53 PM

your comparison of yourself to Elle Osbourne is flawed. It is clear that she gets paid gigs and features in reputable papers/journals.
Wanting to remain annymous is hardly likely to help your cause. post some songs give your name and ask for honest feedback. ( slightly problematic given the inherent niceness of much of the folk community)
john

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 07:44 PM

Well - people on this site always accuse me of being bitter and twisted, but here's my advice and assessment of your situation for what its worth.

Face facts - folk music is a bit of a closed shop, and if you've been giving it your all for ten years (longer than it takes to qualify as a doctor) - the chances are, they ain't going to let you in the door.

I would say   learn to play your instrument well, England's a great country to be a musician - its what I've done most of my life. Believe me, if you've got the chops - you'll make a living. And you will have money for all the instruments you need (not all the ones you want!), and you'll have leisure time to think about and learn about folk ,music. and from the outside you'll out find out why the poor frightened sods need to keep it so exclusive.

Actually I'll tell you the secret - its a simple equation of supply and demand.

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: Leadfingers
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 07:40 PM

Basically , its being in the Right Place , at the Right Time and doing the Right Thing . In Other Words , LUCK .

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 07:35 PM

If you wanted to do this, you need to work up a set list. Since you're singing, you just to know how to play the chords and keep the beat. It's that simple.

The deal is, though, no one is going to walk up and hand you performing opportunities, you have to get out and make those happen on your own. At first, you'll probably have to push your way into playing at birthday parties, store openings, reunions, and such things, but it will give you a chance to figure out how to Razzle Dazzle 'em.

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: Tootler
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 07:14 PM

Do you really, really, really want to succeed?

I mean really, really, desperately want to succeed?

I ask this because I have a daughter who though she might like to make it as an actress. She was good enough but lacked that inner compulsion to succeed, so she got nowhere. She got a drama degree and spent two years doing work experience type projects and in the end my wife found her a job supporting special needs adult students in a college. She found she liked that and was good at it, so she has abandoned any thoughts of acting, having realised it was never for her.

In the end, without that inner compulsion you won't want to make the effort to do the things that are being suggested in this thread or, more likely you'll start to do them but when things don't go your way, you'll start to lose heart and eventually give up.

Think hard now and avoid disappointment later.

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 06:19 PM

It takes more than just getting around, you have to make an impression.

Some people do it with funny glasses, or blue hair, or a catch phrase, or with a signature song, but whatever it is, it should be something people will remember.

Confidence is critical, too; you should always walk into a room like everyone knows you, introduce yourself, and, (this is really important) remember names. Being nice is great, but there are some who manage very well by being a bit self-centered and slightly condescending(a little of this goes a long way, tho)


Here is the best advice anyone ever gave a performer, in the form of a song: Give em the old Razzle Dazzle

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: GUEST,Like a complete unknown
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 06:13 PM

Will Fly--that last question is a good one! Honest answer: I don't know. I started this thread because my inner Kevin The Teenager was complaining that it's totally not fair that I never get to sing to lots of people and make albums people want to buy, and I thought rather than just bracing myself and trying to do something constructive--which is what I usually do when the mood comes on--I'd put some of the grumbling out there for people to pick holes in.

Could I do half an hour? Well, I've never done half an hour--because I've never been asked to do half an hour--so I've never worked out a half-hour set, so I don't know if I... correction, I know I COULD, but I don't know if it would actually work. But you don't know until you've tried.

Can I entertain? I know I have entertained, both in the sense of holding a room and in the sense of raising a laugh--one of my fondest memories is noticing someone in the middle of the audience helplessly crying with laughter, and I hadn't even got to the end of the song. But would that transfer to a half-hour slot? I don't know. How can I know if I've never tried?

Still chewing over how-far-do-you-want-to-go. However good my singing may be, I'm nowhere near as accomplished a musician as any of the people who've replied, and mostly-unaccompanied singing is always going to be a hard sell. And I do like to have the odd spare evening, and my family like to have me around at weekends - so in some ways obscurity suits me pretty well! Right now I think I'd just like to be asked some time, even if it was only four or five songs, even if it was for beer money. Just like to feel I'd moved on a bit in terms of recognition from the complete unknown who got up nine years ago.

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 05:39 PM

Good advice from treewind, which I won't repeat.

I do have one question, though: Are you any good? Do you honestly feel that you've got what it takes to hold an audience for 30 minutes - 45 minutes - 2 x 45 minute spots? If the answer to any of these is not a positive "yes", then you have to work even harder. I'm not implying that you're not good, by the way, just that you have to have a realistic view of how you measure up - ask people for their honest opinions if you're not sure.

OK, so you can sing. Good! Can you perform? More than that, can you entertain? It's not always the greatest singers or performers who get regular work. Rapport with an audience, the ability to click with an audience, to feel at ease, to engage, perhaps to amuse. The ability to not get phased or panicked if a spot isn't going well. Being totally rehearsed and professional in attitude. These are also important.

Are you performing what people want to hear? No reason that you should, by the way - do your own thing by all means - but knowing what 'sells' can be important. I'm always amazed when I get a booking in a mainly traditional folk club, because traditional songs form a very small part of my repertoire. Quite apart from ceilidh band work, which is regular (if seasonal), I perform anything from jazz to blues to rock'n roll. But I do a fair number of freebies - at which I'm usually asked for a card or a telephone number - but I wouldn't get asked for card or number if someone hadn't heard and seen something they liked... So the freebies can bring in gigs.

And how far do you really want to go? I sense some ambiguity about this in your post.

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: treewind
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 05:08 PM

Getting to all the folk clubs a bus ride from where you live is a start. Going to folk clubs further afield is the next step. If you (not you personally, you said you don't want to do this, but your hypothetical bottom-rung singer) want to do gigs you'd better have your own wheels to get to those gigs, so use them to visit clubs as far as you can reach in an evening - an hours drive away, maybe an hour and a half. Set up a web site (or facebook page, YouTube channel, whatever) get some cards printed, maybe a small promotional leaflet. Make a demo CD. Let club organisers know you are looking for bookings, either before you visit, while you are there or afterwards, or all three. Don't be put off by the majority that say no. Be nice to people and make friends. If you know anybody with some influence, twist their arm. Do the same with festivals. Funnily enough, festival appearances can lead to club bookings, more than the other way round. Keep at it - eventually you'll get lucky, but it is a painfully slow process, and like any sales or seduction effort, if 99 out of 100 say no, you call that a success!

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: stallion
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 04:43 PM

who is Ellie Osborne? link maybe?

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: GUEST,Like a complete unknown
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 04:05 PM

Thanks for that, Greg.

What do you mean by 'get around'? Honest question, not meant sarkily. I did a bunch of different folk clubs for a while--name a folk club within a bus ride from where I live and I've sung there--but I guess you don't mean them. Are you talking about festivals or...?

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: greg stephens
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 03:58 PM

You raise Elle Osborne as an example of someone who is a rung or two or three up the ladder and you are still feeling a bit on the ground. Well, for a start she has been performing all over the shop for ages. I don't know about online presence particulalrly, but the reason I felt liuke commenting in the thread about her is that I've run into her many times in many places.
So let's start with that: maybe this is a difference? Do you get around? Have I for example met you and heard you a few times? Because then, I could talk about you on Mudcat, and if someone said you were crap, and I thought you weren't, I would write in and say so. But if you just sing the odd floor spot in your local folk club, well the odds are I won't have heard you unless I come to your club, which is unlikely as I dont play folk clubs very often.

Subject: Getting on the bottom rung
From: GUEST,Like a complete unknown
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 03:42 PM

[Regular 'catter, cookieless for reasons that will become obvious]

I've been singing folk songs for a while now. But if I used my real name you wouldn't have heard of me--or rather, you might know me on Mudcat, but the chances are you wouldn't know me as a singer.

I got up on stage at a folk club eight, nine years ago; I thought I could do it. Three minutes later I KNEW I could do it. I'd been coming to the folk club for a few weeks, getting up courage to put myself forward, and after I'd done my song the MC came up to me and asked why I hadn't told him I could sing.

So I'd arrived. Hooray. I'd arrived as a floor singer. Eight or possibly nine years later I'm still a floor singer--although I mostly go to singarounds these days.

It was reading the Elle Osborne thread that got me thinking. Everyone had an opinion--she's great! she's overrated! she sings flat! she sings like nobody else!--and so it went on. Now this isn't Elkie Brooks we're talking about or even Eliza Carthy. (Is Elle Osborne even professional? I'd be delighted if she was but I somehow doubt it.) In terms of fame and fortune she's not THAT far above the level of interesting floor-singers and singaround regulars like me--but at the same time she's in a different league. She's one of the people that people talk about on Mudcat, not one of the people who do the talking.

What makes the difference? Let's say it's about having an online presence. Or let's not, because I've got one of those. You can even buy my music (or listen to it free, obviously, I'm not stupid). So far I think the number of paying punters who aren't personal friends is 1. Might have been 2, I forget.

Or let's say it's about gigging; let's assume you've got to do the gigs, old-style, Transit van up and down the M6, whatever. So how do you get the gigs? Make it easier: how do you get the first gig, and the second and the third? If you're not an immediately attractive selling proposition--if you haven't got the kind of voice that you can listen to singing the phone book, and not many of us have--how do you get people thinking that giving this particular floorsinger half an hour might be a good idea? (To be fair somebody did once ask me to do a spot, but by the time I asked him about it again he'd sobered up and forgotten all about it.)

I don't want to climb the ladder--I don't kid myself I could ever go pro--but it would be nice to at least get my feet off the ground (or the floor). But how do/did you do it? How do/did you get started?