BS: Politics: UK Labour leadership election

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: UK Labour leadership election
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 02:59 AM

There was an interesting article in yesterday's Independent newspaper by one of their economics editors, Ben Chu. He made the point that if an organisation is to move forward, it has to invest for the future and such organisation's often need to borrow in order to invest. In the current business world, companies are not investing enough in R&D, new equipment etc. because shareholders are demanding short term gains. Governments are not investing enough either but, instead, are obsessed, like Osborne, in 'reducing their deficits'. Chu asserts that the failure of governments to borrow and invest - in things like infrastructure (and, I would add, education) - is storing up trouble for the future and reducing the ability of nation states to grow. Corbyn is proposing to borrow in order to invest (orthodox economics) and is labelled as an 'extremist'! In a sane world, Osborne should wear the extremist label. But the pernicious cult of neo-liberalism has taken us so far from sanity that we no longer recognise sanity when we see it!

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Aug 15 - 12:53 PM

Oh no Richard, the population overspent, but successive govts including "Labour" governments encouraged them to overspend.

The banking system was deregulated by the Tories and further deregulated by Blair and Brown, "plenty of credit, no need to worry about whether you can afford it or not".....can't blame them for trying to make capitalism work, can we.

Regarding govt spending, we can only spend what money is produced by the economy.....and we are producing little.

At present we are involved in a holding operation. Soon the dam will burst.

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Aug 15 - 09:46 AM

Hateon - bullshit. The idea that the economic crisis was caused by labour overspending is a piece of the lying propaganda from the right wing press that TCs swallow.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10207460470495934&set=gm.968800589809613&type=1&theater


http://www.rt.com/uk/311653-austerity-labour-poll-nonsense/



FFS if you are the communist you say that you are, take the fight to the capitalists instead of relaying their propaganda.

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Aug 15 - 09:42 AM

What Kevin said

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Aug 15 - 08:47 AM

I imagine Jeremy Corbyn would point out that there's only a strike because management are trying to impose major changes to work conditions, and have effectively refused to negotiate a deal.

People don't vote to strike and go on strike for fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Aug 15 - 07:11 AM

One thing that intrigues me is that for all the talk of "Maggie destroying the unions" I don't remember her trying this one, and if she did she didn't succeed, presumably because you can stockpile coal but not daily journeys

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 06 Aug 15 - 07:04 AM

All four will profess to see some merit in the workers' cause until they are in power. Then three will say, regardless of any facts in the matter, that the bosses were right all along.

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Aug 15 - 06:44 AM

Moving away from these rather abstract ideas, how do you think each of the candidates would address the current tube strike (Hint: saying it's all up to the mayor will be recognised as just a cop-out and regarded with scorn)

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 15 - 05:12 AM

"Embedded into the benefits culture..." Translator's note: thrown on to the scrapheap during Thatcher's determined drive to destroy our industrial base.

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Aug 15 - 04:21 AM

Richard Bridge....that is simplistic nonsense.
Many of my neighbours are what used to be known as "one nation Conservatives", they are not monetarists or fascists, just people with conservative social values, who believe that the Tory party are better at running a Capitalist economy than a Socialist party.
They are undeniably correct in that assumption, given the past record of successive administrations.
I would hope that you do not label the Blair government as in any way Socialist.
Peter is correct as usual, we need to make a start on a complete change in the system, but the point is that we need to take these good sensible people with us, not fight or demonise them.
Socialism will mean a fall in wasteful living standards for many, and hard work for generations who have become embedded into the benefits culture......we need to inspire everyone but the rulers of capitalism, that there is a better way for people to exist than the financial aspiration which drives folks at this time, and that the sacrifices will be worth making in social terms.

As a lifelong socialist, I fervently hope Jeremy can succeed in his leadership bit and in a GE, but I feel that to implement change, the UK electorate need a shock which goes right to the heart of their comfort zone, cuts through the chains of the benefit system and blunts financial aspiration.

The good Jeremy is , I'm afraid, not the person to provide such a shock.   He will be ritually crucified......Hope I'm wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 06 Aug 15 - 03:35 AM

MI5 under Hollis and Furnival-Jones were right in the pockets of the Tories, and would be formenting rumours and distrust against any Labour leader. Ironically there were also rumours that Hollis was a Soviet agent, possibly started in revenge.

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Aug 15 - 03:28 AM

The con-servatives are the rich making war on the poor (and TCs who believe their lies). You cannot oppose that by supporting the con-servatives, or accepting all or any of their poisonous core belief.

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 05 Aug 15 - 09:31 PM

Here you go, GSS: Sunday Times pays Foot damages over KGB claim. Incidentally I had occasion to down many pints of Beamish in Vinnies, Rosie's, Levis' etc during a pleasant few days last week, and my pal bought a painting from a chap called Bruno. Alas you were not around.

Ake, if Corbyn is not the solution (or the start of it), what do you think is? Does it mean nothing that people are turning out in thousands for a guy who wants to ditch Trident, get us out of NATO and take the utilities back into public ownership? We can debate dialectic materialism as much as we like with the handful of folk still clinging to the remnants of CPG, SPGB, and the rest, but what's that going to achieve beyond giving you a warm glow? Someone needs to motivate the maases, and that's what Corbyn's trying to do. I hope he pulls it off.

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Aug 15 - 07:37 PM

Michael Foot was falsely exposed as a Soviet spy"
I thought that accusation was made against Wilson,
Harold Wilson conspiracy theories
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Harold Wilson in 1974

Since the mid-1970s, a variety of conspiracy theories have emerged centring on British Labour Prime Minister Harold Wilson who served as the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom from 1964 to 1970 and 1974 to 1976, winning four general elections. These range from Wilson having been a Soviet agent (a claim which MI5 investigated and found to be false), to Wilson being the victim of treasonous plots by conservative-leaning elements in MI5 - the latter being claims which Wilson himself made.

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Aug 15 - 04:21 PM

I didn't mean to compare Claire to Jeremy Peter. I was simply illustrating how the guts can be removed from an inspirational grass roots movement by compromise(which will be in Jeremy's case, unavoidable.)

The worst possible option, is to give the impression that the system can be managed.

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 05 Aug 15 - 04:01 PM

Clare Short was in the band of opportunists who took over the Labour Party after John Smith died. Any suggestion that Corbyn's cast from that same mould would be far wide of the mark.

I agree with Ake that if Corbyn wins, he will face an onslaught from all manner of interests vested in the status quo. Wilson had to cope with MI5 scheming against him; Michael Foot was falsely exposed as a Soviet spy. Corbyn has all that crap ahead of him and worse. But where does the fight start, if not here?

I don't know if anyone remembers that disturbing telly drama, A Very British Coup (requires registration to view, probably UK only)? For some reason it's writer, Chris Mullins, has decided the time is right for a sequel....

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Aug 15 - 02:53 PM

What is ake on? And on about?

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Aug 15 - 07:36 AM

I believe Jeremy could win a GE Peter, and I would love to see it, but could he make the current economic system work to our satisfaction?.....He would have to make so many compromises that any inspirational movement would be disarmed.

I remember Miss Short a leftish politician who joined Blair's War Cabinet and sabotaged the huge grass roots movement against the war.

Had she joined Mr Cook in resigning everything may have been different, but she now says she thought she could fight better from "inside the Tent"....the famous cry of the hypocritical left.

The only way we will get change is through a popular movement, a charismatic leader, and a population which REALLY wants change

Still a long way off unfortunately.....or perhaps fortunately. :0(

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 05 Aug 15 - 05:03 AM

Those like Fred who warm to Corbyn but accept the received wisdom that he can't win a general election might be interested in these thoughts from the senior Tory ex-minister Ken Clarke, former Chancellor of the Exchequer, Home Secretary, etc, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Aug 15 - 04:43 AM

It's even more complicated than that , one can be a social conservative, and also a political radical.

One cannot be a social conservative and a "liberal".

One cannot be a liberal and a "liberal"

This forum has a coterie of the most illiberal "liberals".

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 05 Aug 15 - 03:23 AM

i agree, i used 'radical' to mean drastic -though right wing (fascist? or neo fascist?) change. political terminology has become very confusing - especially the 'liberal' term. i think republicans (as in trump and palin not mcguinness and adams) regard liberals as communists. american neo-liberal global capitalists are heavily indebted to chinese communists party who are, of course, the most currentlly successful capitalists on the planet. politically, 'liberal' has so many interpretations that perhaps all meaning is obscure or lost. is the new liberal leader more liberal than the previous neoconsevative enabler leader clegg? i think there still as a 'Liberal' party (presumably holding on to a traditional view of what liberal is - as opposed to 'liberal democrats'

of course it's all very confussing - i prefer to stick to the old marxist definitions of bosses and workers. or if i'm being really modern - banging on about the crimes of the 1%. in supporting JC in for the labour leadership am i being a conservative, or at least, traditional - conservative?

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 09:01 PM

I think you mean "reactionary and backward looking" not "radical".(Richard Bridge)

Surely "radical" can properly be used to refer to reactionary and backward looking political ideologies, provided they are drastic enough in destroying the status quo, more especially the good things that existed. As in the case of Isis or Thatcherism, or the present government.

If we had a decent society the important thing wouldn't be to try to change it, but to protect it from destructive changes. We could all be genuine conservatives with a good conscience...

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 06:02 PM

Again, agreed BWM. And, NO, ake. Go away and read some statistics.

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 03:50 PM

There appears to have been a tightening of Moderation Controls.

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 03:47 PM

as this topic looks set to drop off the live charts could i ask why there are usually 2/3 times as many threads on music etc than on general stuff. sorry if this question has been asked before.....

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: Stanron
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 11:39 AM

Fancy some cold water being poured over rosy dreams?

Remember Greece.

A strongly left wing party sold the hope of an end to austerity to an electorate who bought it hook, line and sinker. What was the result? A near bankrupt country and even more austerity. Oh yes and a referendum that then got ignored. More hopes dashed.

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 10:34 AM

Very astute comment :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 09:54 AM

here's some interesting comment from the 'national' newspaper. please note how welcoming the scottish independence movement is (and has been throughout) to positive ideas from england.



http://www.thenational.scot/comment/cat-boyd-jeremy-corbyn-could-be-best-thing-to-happen-to-english-democracy-in-generations.5936


come on comrades - allow yourself a bit of hope - it's been a long time coming

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 07:06 AM

One really has to wonder about the news coverage in the UK. On the same theme I noticed this story today. Woman (who is now a sitting Labour MP in the Liverpool area) up working for Better Together during the referendum was charged with assault on a Yes campaigner at the polling station. The case has been dropped on a legality though the Crown Prosecution say they are going to represent it today!

Now I know that everyone is innocent until found guilty so it is not so much what did and what didn't actually happen! But I just couldn't believe the fact that this is the first time I'd even heard of this story! You can rest assured that had it be a Yes Campaign worker, who was now an SNP MP, who was accused of the assault then it would have been splashed on the front page of all the tabloids.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-33765416

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 04:10 AM

What you seem to be saying Allan, is that Labour and Conservative are equally ineffective in making the UK economically viable and constructing a society which gives everyone a chance of a fulfilling life?

Does that not bear out my point?.....for change to be effected, the source of the problem has to be addressed, we are simply uncompetitive globally and no amount of smoke and mirrors will make us so.

A smaller unit like an Independent Scotland could survive economically..... with the will on the part of the population, but it will require sacrifices.
In Scotland, the Labour Party is gone for good and with it the UK main office.   They represent no major group in the political spectrum any longer.
I expect to see in an independent Scotland, a real battle between the traditional conservative elements and some proper socialism.

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 03:34 AM

You're right, of course, Allan. Just before the election a letter, from 100 or so 'business leaders', was published, and widely publicised in the media, stating that they only trusted the Tories with the economy. But I read in the Independent business section that 50 or so leading economists wrote another letter stating that austerity wasn't working and that the rate of recovery from the recession, under the coalition government, was much slower than it should have been; this letter received almost no publicity (who reads the business section of the Independent?).

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 02:19 AM

I can't believe how both TV presenters and Labour speaker after Labour speaker let Tory speakers away with the "historically we are the fiscally responsible ones" argument in the run up to the election. The stats just don't seem to show that. Since Thatcher came to power there have only been 6 years when there was a surplus and 4 of them have been under Labour with only 2 under the Tories! If you discount the figures since the 2008 credit crunch (a massive and rare world event) then yes Labour may have had a big deficit but it was no worse than John Major's was and they average out almost exactly the same with Labour's figures only being slightly better than the Tories.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2010/oct/18/deficit-debt-government-borrowing-data#img-1

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 10:08 PM

Yes, BWM.

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 05:14 PM

I think you are right about the media, BWM, but what worries me is how and why has it happened? You and I can see it. I don't know about you but I am not particularly cynical and tend to take people on trust. I know when someone is trying to manipulate me though. Why can others not see it? Why are those MOR and floating voters so easily fooled? Why are some people on Mudcat so under the spell of the media barons? I can only shake my head at some of the comments made here at times, particularly by those who espouse that things must be true because they read it in the paper or saw it on TV!

Still, what a boring world it would be if we were all the same. Safer, fairer, cleaner and greener, But boring... :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 01:45 PM

I agree with Fred. And with Jeremy.

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 12:30 PM

Dave. If Jeremy Corbyn ran my local you'd never get me out of the place. I've heard him speak at two rallies since he announced his candidacy (the one in Liverpool last Saturday attracted over a thousand people). What impressed me wasn't just his candour, or the fact that he reiterated virtually everything I believe in. It was that his speech took in such a huge field. He didn't just talk about the things which most people would consider mainstream socialism, although they were certainly in there. He brought in women's rights, gay rights, the torture regime in Eritrea, children having to go hungry during school holidays (yes, folks, this is 2015) because the school meals kitchens were closed, climate change, fracking, the disgusting mess we are making of the planet, and much, much, more.

Two things impressed me more than anything else though. The first was the way that capitalism stifles the artistic endeavours of ordinary people, and the role which art will fulfill in the new society. "Everyone has a genius inside them", he said. And by God he was right.

The second came right at the close when he said we have to forge an end to this dog-eat-dog/rat-race/competition-led-ethos which currently surrounds all of human existence, and let us instead build a society where everyone cares for everyone else worldwide. "You can call it Humanism or Christianity, or Humanitarianism", he said. "I call it Socialism".

Is Jeremy Corbyn the man to lead Labour to victory at the next general election? Personally I don't think he is, and I don't think he is because if ever he came within breathing space of victory, the media and the establishment would bury him just like they buried Jesus Christ and the Diggers and the Tolpuddle martyrs and the Chartists and Joe Hill, and everyone else who had the brass neck to stand up and shout for a fair and equal world.

But let's look beyond 2020. For more decades than I care to remember, the left in Britain has been wandering round like a lost dog, alienated, thwarted, and totally demoralised. That is partly the result of Thatcher and the lengths she went to to crush the unions, and it is also the result of Tony Blair's efforts to sell us his ersatz version of toryism.

What I saw at those two rallies was a left wing which has been galvanised back into action. At long last, it has picked itself up off the floor and it is fighting back. Let a million red banners be unfurled. The people are on the march again.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/jeremy-corbyn-tells-echo-i-9774468

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 12:09 PM

BWM....what do you wish to oppose?
The Conservative govt are in the business of getting the economy into some sort of shape, they are attacking the benefits system, using Eastern European labour to produce a little growth, encouraging wealth differentials, all policies which will be effective in the short term.
Within a few years they will be turfed out and a "liberal" govt of some description elected .....it will keep itself in power by giving handouts and borrowing money just like they always do....and the wealth gap will continue to widen..... so the circus goes on.    There is only one thing to be opposed and that is the machine itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 11:37 AM

There's no doubt in my mind that Jeremy Corbyn is a damn fine Human Being (deliberate capital letters) and that he eschews policies and ambitions that demonstrate the very best 0f human qualities.

But, sadly, I believe that his election to the leadership of the Labour Party will result in the party becoming completely unelectable - not because there's anything wrong with Corbyn or his policies, but simply because the vile, disgraceful lies and shit-slinging by the Tories and the Tory Press have brainwashed floating- and MOR-voters into believing that the Labour Party, and particularly those very policies that Corbyn espouses, are the root cause of all that's been wrong in the UK since before the financial crash of 2008.

The Labour Party and its supporters in the Press need to get their act together, stop attacking one another, and get hold of the Tories by the balls and squeeze until their arrogant, self-serving eyes are out on stalks. Metaphorically speaking, of course! :-)

They are the opposition. Time to bloody well OPPOSE!

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 10:23 AM

If Jeremy Corbyn ran your local pub

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: GUEST,Selby
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 09:53 AM

Politics in this country has run out of steam. We and I suspect many others do not see our MP until an election is due. We all bumble along slagging each other of because we are red blue yellow or any other colour that does not fit with our individuality. The world has changed and a better approach is required but it suits ALL career politicians to keep the same same old

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: pdq
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 08:54 AM

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
                ~ Benjamin Franklin

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 07:43 AM

Like so many of these things, that list is more problematic than it seems. Freedom and equality are not good bedfellows since effective equality usually needs some regulation which is a limitation on freedom. Bringing the thread back to the Labour candidates the impression given is that Corbyn is more inclined to balance things towards equality whereas the others are more towards the freedom side in the tradeoff.

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 05:21 PM

Once again, shite.

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 02:12 PM

Richard, you claim to be some sort of armchair socialist, have you ever been out on the march for a decent wage....when we got £8 per week, or had your head split open by people who though we had no right to protest US involvement in Vietnam?

40 years in the CP and you say I have no credibility regarding politics?
I have said that constantly changing parties to make sure the cursed machine keeps running is madness.....the problem is the fucking machine itself, it has run out of fuel.....you know what it runs on? Exploitation, theft and aspiration. I have a vision but you wouldn't like it, for you would be out in the fields losing your belly.

Lets hear your views on how we build a better society instead of your constant whinging and nit picking

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 12:55 PM

Ake - you seem repeatedly to contradict yourself. I still see no coherent vision for progress from you.

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 05:25 AM

Until we learn that aspiration for personal wealth and personal "freedoms" is a curse, society will continue to disintegrate.

Other countries have managed to build proper public services, though personally poor financially....They do not abuse what they themselves have created.

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 05:00 AM

Yes I agree 100% with what you say DmG, there is such a thing as too much "freedom", and "equality" is a myth which even if it was attainable would be little benefit to society.

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 04:31 AM

I meant forgotten about the coalition with the Tories.

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 04:30 AM

If Corbyn was elected and gained respect as leader of the opposition the Lib Dems would probably have to take on those of his policies that have support in the centre (see article linked above). By 2020 a lot of Lib Dem supporters will have forgotten about the coalition but the party will know not to risk it again. It may be the best way of getting the Tories out and also have a socialist party with some integrity, even if only getting a share of power through a coalition.

I am probably wrong but would like to hear why.

Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 03:18 AM

There's an awful lot of truth in what you say, DMcG. I would also add that, the older I get, the more I realise that a huge percentage of the electorate don't deserve democracy!