Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: Taconicus
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 07:48 PM

I think he's saying that only in heaven will they mind their business. Of course, that's his heaven. In your heaven I suppose folks would sing only as you'd like them to. ;)

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 07:13 PM

Hmmm.. a folk and blues discussion forum where we're instructed to "mind our own bloody business" and not have any opinions on how people sing! How curious!

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 01:29 PM

I suspect that will take place in heaven. It would have to be there, for you traddies to mind your own bloody business as to how people want to sing.

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 12:37 PM

Close your eyes and imagine this:

Hank Williams finally makes it to The Grand Old Opry. The steel guitar comes in on the first few bars of "Your Cheating Heart" and Hank is about to sing. And then, blow me, Hank starts singing in a Brummie accent!

A ridiculous idea? Perhaps, but not essentially different from what so many British singers do with cod-American accents, even when they're singing their own songs to other British people!

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: GUEST,More than 3 chords is jazz
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 12:16 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6S7agOnOTE

Hopefully the link is now there properly? Sorry about that.

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: GUEST,More than 3 chords is jazz
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 12:02 PM

Boy has this thread run and run?

I can tell you why I sing in an accent not my own? It's not an affectation, I don't talk between songs like I'm Steve Earle's cousin. And I don't want anyone to think I'm 'Merkin.

With me (and I think with some others) it's because I am not a natural singer and if doing a cover or whatever I sort of default to the accent I heard it in originally. Gotta be honest though if I am covering a Billy Bragg or Chris Woods song I become far more aware of trying not to sound like a mockney cockney than if I am covering say Darrell Scott. I think this probably has to do with what is generally accepted in many forms of music?

I was quite interested to read recently that Woody Guthrie's wife commented on the fact (as she saw it) that Bob Dylan's distinctive singing style was him copying how Woody sang. More than that she argued that Dylan copied how Woody sang after he became ill with Huntington's, and that he (Woody) was always precise with his phrasing and clear with his singing until ill; and that Dylan was copying how he sounded at the start the start of his illness?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6S7agOnOTE

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: GUEST,KP
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 11:55 AM

I don't know what you're all on about, the real mid-Atlantic Accent is of course this one!
Folk music from the Azores

KP

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: GUEST,Sometimes The Norm
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 07:30 AM

When trying to sing in the Mid Atlantic, not many would expect to get further than "Burp Oogle Gloop" (in any accent) without first having hired a boat.

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 04:29 PM

I lived in one house and stowmarket, around that period.I lived next door to the Shepherd and Dog pub at OneHouse

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 11:29 AM

Maybe? I was there from 1957 - 1970s then 84-86 (showing my age again!)

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 11:18 AM

do i know you tattie, i used to live in Suffolk too

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 11:05 AM

GSS: Allan Smethurst's accent was definitely Norfolk: I doubt if he'd retain much of the Lancashire accent if he moved away from there when he was 2! Kids can change their accents quite successfully maybe up to mid-teens, and tend to talk more like their peers than their parents or folk in place they were born.
I was born in Glasgow but no way have I a Glasgow accent: I speak with a slight Suffolk accent, the place where I grew up.
My daughter went through three different accents according to where we lived, before coming to Scotland when she was 9: she, and our son, who came here aged 3, both have an unequivocal Edinburgh accent.

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: s&r
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 01:23 PM

I tend to think that, far from being an awful imitation of a Cockney accent, Dick van Dyke did a wonderful tongue in cheek pastiche of a Cockney accent. It made me chuckle because it was intended to...

Stu

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: Taconicus
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 01:18 PM

Thanks for that well reasoned post, Mike of Northumbria. I agree with you completely. And Jim Dixon, you're right too. It's perfectly natural to have a different accent when speaking, when singing, and even when singing different types of music. It doesn't have to be something done purposely; it just naturally happens. Sometimes it's just what feels right.

But I can identify with the story about Peggy Seeger. I remember one time, while visiting Scotland for the Stonehaven Folk Festival, having to stifle a fit of giggles while listening to a late, well beloved (by me, too) Scottish folk singer singing the American folk song Shenandoah (one of the many American folk songs that seem to be more popular in Scotland than in America). Hearing him singing "Oh, Shen-en-dough-uuuuh" was just the funniest thing, sounding so strange to my American ear. I imagine it would be kind of like hearing someone singing a song about Edinburgh and pronouncing it Ed-in-burr-ooooh. Since then, I've been too self-consious to ever sing Scottish folk music when in Scotland. That's what I mostly sing here in America, because I love the music, but when performing in Scotland I'll generally stick to American folk music, which is appreciated.

Here's a strange thing, as an addendum. Sometimes parts of my pronunciation that people think are "imitating Irish or Scottish" actually stem from my having lived in the Ozark mountain area (Missouri/Arkansas area, American Midwest) for about a decade. The accent there isn't noticeably Irish or Scottish, but there are some similarities, probably because the Ozarks, like the Appalachians, were largely settled by immigrants from those places, which probably also accounts for the similarities between bluegrass and Celtic music.

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 12:38 PM

sing the songs and shut up, this thread is a load of old squit.

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 12:25 PM

I know I come late to this discussion, and it's likely no one will pay attention to what I have to say, but here goes—

I think people are reading way too much into this—it has nothing to do with "cultural imperialism," or "the collapse of confidence in the British [or any other] way of life." And they are being way too judgmental.

The fact is: people imitate what they hear. This is the most natural thing in the world. Children do it all the time. That's how they acquire language in the first place. That's why a Yorkshireman sounds like a Yorkshireman, and why a Texan sounds like a Texan. It isn't "in the water" and it isn't in their genes, and it isn't even dictated by geography. It is determined solely by what you hear.

For example, if you grow up in Texas but both your parents came from Boston, your own accent will be a mixture of Texan and Bostonian. It may sound strange to both Texans and Bostonians, but it is perfectly natural for you.

If there is anything "unnatural" it is the belief that all imitation ought to stop when you're, say, 10 years old.

I suppose this would be hard to understand if you have lived in one place all your life and your family has lived in that same place since time immemorial. For you, accents might seem naturally immutable, and to change one's accent might seem "unnatural," "affected," or "artificial." (Those are some of the judgmental terms I have seen in this thread.)

But if your brother or sister has moved hundreds of miles away, and lived "away" for 10 years or so, and then you go to visit them, you will notice that their accent has changed. The change might be unconscious and barely perceptible to your brother or sister, but it will be obvious to you.

Even more surprising, they might become "bi-accented" (to coin a phrase) in the same way that people become bilingual. They might speak one way to their neighbors and coworkers and another way to their visiting relatives.

I repeat: imitation is the most natural thing in the world. It is part of our adaptability as humans. It is a strength that helps us survive. I think it ought to be praised, cherished, and admired—more so when it is more successfully done—rather than criticized and condemned.

And I don't see that it should be treated any differently in the context of music.

Music is a language unto itself. Like spoken language, it has myriad components: tone, rhythm, style, tempo, and lyrics. (Am I leaving anything out?) When you learn a new song, you typically learn everything at once. It would be unusual (although, I suppose, not impossible) to deliberately separate out the various components: "Today I'll learn the notes, tomorrow I'll learn the rhythm" or "I'll learn the notes, but I'll apply a different rhythm."

Well, suppose a certain accent feels to you like one of the components of a song, along with rhythm and all the rest? I don't see why that feeling—which you could also call an artistic judgment—should necessarily be considered wrong.

For those who want to do it that way, I say, more power to them. Anyway, I'm glad we have some people who have the courage to do what feels right to them, even if it sounds wrong to someone else.

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 09:22 AM

'I think the one I'm not fond of would be more along the lines of an actor using one accent for say giving a tv interview and another for speaking to his friends. I wouldn't get why he could not be himself for the tv interview.'

I think the answer to that one is rather strange. Namely, for a guy on the news being asked about the motorway scheduled to come through his garden - the interview is just talking and giving a point of view.

for the skilled performer - the radio interview is a creative opportunity.

I used to do interviews for paul Mackenzie on radio Derby for Paul Mackenzie's afternoon show.(I and a few others, were always persona no grata on Folkwaves - that's why I didn't join the general clamour at its demise). However nothng ever really came of these radio shows i did. and I was semi-deatched - I was never sure anybody was listening. i was teaching one time when Paul asked me to do a live radio gig with George Melly - so I never did it - something I regret.

Anyway one time, possibly the last time I did a show for Paul. A few days later I heard Glen Campbell do a similar interview on Loose Ends a few days later. And suddenly I knew all the things I had been doing wrong on the radio. Glen had had his own radio show from the age of ten. He knew how intoduce a song, what guitar to choose, how to promote his gig without being pushy.

In a short, the radio is separate skill. I had done thousands of pub gigs, a fair few festival spots, even had a record out and mimed to it on telly. But I was completely shit radio guest.

No wonder Kenneth Williams was always being invited to do these radio things. Like Glen Campbell - he knew his craft.

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 08:58 AM

Since the debate is widening, let's turn over another stone.

At primary school,my contemporaries and I learned to speak one dialect in the classroom, and another in the playground. Both were somewhat different from the way we were expected to speak at home, in the presence of our parents.

There was an equally sharp linguistic contrast between the hymns we sang in school assembly, the 'polite' songs we learned in music lessons, and the much cruder songs and chants we picked up in the playground. This didn't bother us - we took it for granted, the way kids do.

By the time we hit puberty, a lot of us had become so excited by American songs (jazz, blues, country, folk or rock,according to taste) that we wanted to sing them ourselves. Putting on what seemed to be an appropriate accent felt like the right thing to do. After all, we were well used to putting on different accents for different occasions. Sometimes the results were dire, but sometimes the process appeared to work reasonably well. Most of us didn't reflect on it much, we just got on with doing it.

Fifty years later, after a listening to a great deal of ethno-musicological and ideological debate, I'm still inclined to the 'just do it' approach. Sometimes I learn a song because its words expresses something I want to say better than I could say it myself. Or sometimes a song's tune haunts me like a spectre until it's infiltrated my repertoire. And sometimes I pass these songs on to other people, hoping that they will share my pleasure in them. Where the song originally came from, and what accent it 'ought' to be sung in, matters less to me than whether it works in front of an audience.

This seems to be the path that Ralph McTell and many other British 'mid-Atlantic' singers have taken. A lot of people have enjoyed listening to them. And quite a few of those listeners have been isnpired by them to discover more traditional music (from both sides of the pond). On the whole, this seems to me to be a good thing.

Once upon a time, so the story goes, Peggy Seeger nearly fell off her chair laughing at a young Londoner's attempt to sing a Leadbelly song. And once upon a time I nearly fell out of my chair laughing at Dick van Dyke's attempt at a cockney accent in 'Mary Poppins'. Well, a good laugh usually does us no harm, but let's get over it and move on. Just do it - and if it works, keep doing it!

Wassail!

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 08:41 AM

That's a very good point Alan. As An Irish Ballad singer, performing Iris songs correctly is as much to getting the mood and feeling righ. I know an English chap regularly sings Iris trad stuff and plays it well and has a good voice. But it never feels right to my ears. On the other hand I've heard other English and other non Irish singers perform them wonderfully well, and in most cases had gone and played in Irish session, which I reccomend any singers to experience. It is really quite a difference playing over there than in your average folk club. you go along with the mood of the night much more. I go back as often as I can to play in Sessions, and I've always returned having learned that much more and playing that little bit better. I reccomed Cleeres Bar in Kilkenny especially, wonderful sessions every Monday there

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 06:02 AM

Its like an actor has different voices for different characters.

I think the one I'm not fond of would be more along the lines of an actor using one accent for say giving a tv interview and another for speaking to his friends. I wouldn't get why he could not be himself for the tv interview.

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 05:35 AM

Interesting Richard! Your comments made me think of the time I figured I might earn a living from the acoustic guitar by gigging the Irish theme bars.

Its more than pronunciation, you know. the actual rhythm of the words take you into an alien accent. someody said to me one night - you know you did that song with exactly the same phrasing at Christy Moore. And sometimes you'd come off stage - not having spoken all night - some places you didn't say a word hardly - just cranked out the music - and you'd be speaking unwittingly with an Irish accent.

Palph McTell is pretty straightforward compared to us singers who dabble in a variety of songs from different places.

He sings in one voice - talks in another. And its all pretty constant.

Oh hell - we're entertainers, or at least we should aim at entertaining people. Its like an actor has different voices for different characters.

we're allowed!

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 04:58 AM

I'm firmly with Mike (theGM one) on this.

When one sings a song that comes from a part of the English-speaking world different from one's own, there are pros and cons to assuming the corresponding accent -- whether deliberately or by unconscious imitation of one's source.

I loved it when I heard Maggie Holland sing blues in an English accent. It can work and it certainly did with her. But it might not with other singers or for other listeners.

Personally I make a distinction between Scots and the rest, partly because Scots has some claim to be a language rather than a dialect (but let's not get side-tracked into arguing about that) but mainly because, as Taconicus mentioned, English pronunciations of Scots words don't sound right; and because many rhymes don't work.

When I hear a Scots song sung in an English accent with just an occasional Scots word such as "frae" instead of "from" and "hae" instead of "have", to me it just sounds wrong.

I will either sing in Scots (generic, based partly on "staying" near Edinburgh for part of my university career but mainly on listening to lots of Scots singers from all over the country) or, if I can manage it, anglicise.

Anyway it is utterly daft for a British singer-songwriter singing their own song to use anything other than the same accent that they speak with. It may sometimes be necessary to adapt both for a particular audience, but if the audience can understand the introduction they can understand the song.

Richard

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: Taconicus
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 03:42 PM

MikeofNorthumbria wrote on 8 January:

Now there are many British singers who love American folk (and jazz, and rock) music ... [a]nd the songs they love to sing have speech-rhythms that are just as distinctive as Shakespeare's. To sing them convincingly, it's essential to understand and respect those rhythms. ... [T]he Beatles sang Carl Perkins songs for exactly the same reason that Orson Welles played Shakespearean roles – because they found them irresistible.

I think that's exactly right. And the same goes for Yanks who sing Scottish songs with Scots pronunciations.

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 01:38 PM

jimmie rodgers influence on alan smethurst, is most noticeable in his guitar playing, he also took the tune the wabash cannonball for one of his best songs, on the night of halloween, this is imo a well written song.
alan smethurst did spend 90 percent of his formative years in norfolk, from age 2 onwards.

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 08:33 AM

The reason actually is much more scientific. I remember some science show on TV some years back looked into this phenomena of 'american' accents in Singing. I can't remember much detail but there was certainly proof that the answer is in the lyrics of most popular songs. The R sounds and vowel sounds especially when sung do naturally produce a sound similar to what we think of as a standard american accent and somewhat more in Females than males, hence even many female folk artists develop what appears to be an american/trans Atlantic accent

Which is why it's much less prevalent in Folk music which is largely written in a more british and often dialects, and suits a more British accent, it may also be why much irish music lent itself to originating U.S country music, due to the strong R and vowel sounds. So usually it's not even deliberate, though in the rock n'roll days I'm sure many record producers encouraged artists here to Yank it up a bit

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 06:15 AM

I've heard quite a number of American actors taking on Shakespearean roles. Many of them have (IMHO) performed very creditably, delivering their words with intelligence, with feeling, and with sensitivity to the dynamics of native English speech. Orson Welles' Falstaff, Marlon Brando's Mark Antony, and Paul Robeson's Othello were outstanding examples. Nevertheless, it was still obvious from their accents that they were Americans.

What I have a problem with is the far worse fakery British actors bring to these roles. They are nearly always done in "RP", the standardized form of the class-laden dialect of the southern English upper bourgeoisie. Actors learn that accent no matter where in Britain they come from, because the drama establishment insists on it. It would have been barely intelligible to Shakespeare and completely fucks up a lot of his rhymes and assonances (effects that often would be preserved if the roles were delivered in a regional working-class accent). That's considered irrelevant. The point of the RP crap is to establish *ownership* of Shakespeare by the ruling elite, to make him "one of us" and to assert through every vowel that he speaks for the ruling class alone. I find Olivier's voice an unlistenable obscenity because of the political statement it's making.

And there's a lot more RP in Rafferty's voice than there is American. They're equally distant from the speech he grew up with. He very successfully internalized both the voice of British class hegemony and the voice of American cultural imperialism. After doing that to himself, small wonder he achieved sweet fuck all and ended up as a deranged self-mutilated mess.

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: Will Fly
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 05:11 AM

If you want to hear some hideous accent mangling try a Northern Working Mens Club Country and Western act. Singing half the time in a mock American accent and constant lapsing into broad Yorkshire on certain phrases!

Excellent - "Phoenix Nights" moved across the border! There was a wonderful ending to one of Peter Kay's "Phoenix Nights" episodes - the bit where they always auditioned new acts. A one-legged man, dressed as Elvis, was doing a Presley song and beating out the rhythm on his tin leg with drumsticks. They all said, "Great - can you do any more?"

His reply was, "yes - "Blue Suede Shoe!"

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 12:19 AM

Mike of Northumbria: I think you miss the point. No-one objects to Americans using their own accent; nor even to Brits doing the·best·they·can with American accents to sing songs which are American (or for that matter, if they can, Irish accents to sing Irish songs &c). It's that instinctive [for some reason] adoption of none-too-convincing "Mid-Atlantic" to sing just any song, esp when this is clearly inappropriate to the song's subject/milieu, as in e.g. 'Baker St' or 'Sts Of London', which is at issue.

~M~

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 09:36 PM

Re the Singing Postman, he moved to Norfolk when he was 2 and his mother came from Norfolk.

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 07:59 PM

Taconicus wrote on 6 January:

"I sing the music because I love it, and I sing it the way I love to sing it. And if you don't like it, you don't have to listen."

Agree entirely. Perhaps after that, as Hamlet says, "The rest is silence…"

Or perhaps that line suggests another way of considering this issue?

I've heard quite a number of American actors taking on Shakespearean roles. Many of them have (IMHO) performed very creditably, delivering their words with intelligence, with feeling, and with sensitivity to the dynamics of native English speech. Orson Welles' Falstaff, Marlon Brando's Mark Antony, and Paul Robeson's Othello were outstanding examples.   Nevertheless, it was still obvious from their accents that they were Americans.

And yet I wouldn't dream of dismissing what they did as 'mid-Atlantic'. These actors were, I think, trying to preserve the English speech-rhythms of the text, but without faking an English accent. Now there are many British singers who love American folk (and jazz, and rock) music just as much as these American actors love Shakespeare. And the songs they love to sing have speech-rhythms that are just as distinctive as Shakespeare's. To sing them convincingly, it's essential to understand and respect those rhythms. But IMHO it isn't necessary (or even desirable) to produce a perfect facsimile of the original accent.

I would submit that the Beatles sang Carl Perkins songs for exactly the same reason that Orson Welles played Shakespearean roles – because they found them irresistible. And critics who ignore the power and passion of their performances, and merely carp about the 'inauthenticity' of their accents, are totally missing the point.

Wassail!

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: tritoneman
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 06:52 PM

I was taken in by the Singing Postman. I thought he was totally authentic Norfolk Man.
This makes me start to re-think my decision on the accent to sing with. Although I was born in Surbiton and spent the first nearly thirty years of my life in London I moved to Exeter thirty years ago. Maybe I should adopt a Devon accent to sing in?
Going back to the Singing Postman, he said that his biggest influence was Jimmie Rogers.
A Lancashire man singing a Blue Yodel with a Norfolk accent.....

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 04:52 PM

Allan Francis Smethurst (19 November, 1927[1] - 23 December, 2000), aka The Singing Postman was an English postman and singer.

Born in Bury, Lancashire, the son of Allan and Gladys Mabel (née Curson),[2] Smethurst was raised in Sheringham, Norfolk. His mother came from the nearby village of Stiffkey. He later moved away from Norfolk.
much as i admire the singing postman, in view of the fact he was born in lancashire, I think he should come straight down from heaven and re record all his songs in a lancashire accent

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: tritoneman
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 03:13 PM

I've been reading through this thread with increasing unease. So, after decades of singing - and every now and then pondering over the problems of accent (particularly the 'mid-atlantic variety)- I've finally decided to sing everything in my own accent. No more sounding like a demented Ramblin' Jack Elliot for me! I was born in Surbiton and so shall stick to a Surbitonian accent - whatever that may be.... and I think it would probably be best to stick to English songs too.

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: GUEST,Bruce Michael Baillie
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 02:48 PM

If you want to hear some hideous accent mangling try a Northern Working Mens Club Country and Western act. Singing half the time in a mock American accent and constant lapsing into broad Yorkshire on certain phrases! I've seen it done trust me!

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 08:40 AM

From Jim Carroll's post on 3rd Nov (just catching up with this thread!)
"Walter Pardon, in his gentle way, took ubridge at the mock-East anglian one that he came across on the radio occasionally.
We were recording him talking about accents one night (we had just got hold of a very early recording of him at the Norwitch Festival noticed that his own had lessened somewhat over the years).
He went into a gentle rant about 'country accents' on the radio; "They always depict us saying ""ooo, ar"".
Pat said to him, "But you do sometimes say "oo-ar", Walter.
He sat for a moment, stared up at the ceiling as said, "Oo-ar". "

I'd agree that there are very few actors or others who can do an East Anglian accent: it usually comes out as "standard BBC rural" complete with Oo-Arrs. But one thing East Anglians DON'T do is roll their rrs. In the West Country OO-arr seems to be used as a term of agreement, whereas what they say (frequently!)in Suffolk and Norfolk is OO-WAH (no r!) and that's more an expression of surprise at something someone has said than in agreement!
O becomes OO
A gets elongated
and et becomes more like ut or 't
So Stowmarket (mid-Suffolk) becomes Stoomaaahk't.
And they can't say a "you" sound properly - hence Bernard Matthews' famous "boot'ful" or our son's name (EWAN) became OOWAN.
(I lived in Suffolk most of my schooldays and again in the 80s)

Just listen to some Sid Kipper or The Singing Postman on Youtube: here's one example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnioP0T_3Ao

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 08:33 PM

You see Mike - even the Romans agree with me!

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: Taconicus
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 08:19 PM

Two comments.

First of all, it's possible to have different accents singing and speaking. I remember back in the 1960s I was puzzled because I would listen to the Beatles speak and they had a decidedly English accent, but when they sang, they sounded American – unlike other British groups like Herman's Hermits for instance.

I don't think with the Beatles it was a matter of trying to speak with an American accent. I think the fact is, they spent so much time listening to, and singing American music, in particularly rock 'n roll, that they developed that particular accent while singing. I don't think it required a conscious effort or desire to "fake" an American accent; I think it was a natural development, just as a person develops a secondary accent when they live for a while in a country different from their native land.

I know that I myself, having spent so much time singing Celtic (Scottish and Irish) music, have developed an accent when singing that is different from my speaking accent. I wouldn't call it a Scottish accent, or an Irish accent, but there are some elements of that in there. I'm not trying to "fake" a Scottish or Irish accent, it's just the way I sing now.

The second comment I have is directed to the person who says they particularly hate when someone tries to sing in a "fake" Scottish accent. Bear in mind that it may not be an accent you're hearing. It may be that the person is singing a Scottish folk song that has words of the Scots dialect in it. A lot of Scottish music has Scots words in it, and a lot of the time they just don't sound right – they don't really scan properly – if you don't use the Scots pronunciations for the words, for example hae, hame, lang, dee instead of have, home, long, die. So it may not be accent (fake or otherwise) you're hearing – it may be a legitimate attempt to properly pronounce Scots dialect lyrics, in order to sing the song properly!

Finally, I'll just say that I sing because I love the music. And I sing it the way I want to hear it sung. That's all. I sing the music because I love it, and I sing it the way I love to sing it. And if you don't like it, you don't have to listen.

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 06:49 PM

did he speak welsh with a mid atlantic accent

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 06:31 PM

There once was a king called Art
Who perfected the silent fart
He'd say, Arfur mo!
And he'd then let one go
but he said it in Welsh, which was smart.

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: GUEST,Allan Con
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 06:09 PM

"I have just watched a wooden version of "King Arthur" wherein the Arch-Saxon drawls in an accent unbeknownst to any other incontinent but America"

Mind I can't imagine a modern English accent would be any closer to how Arthur (if he existed)would have talked than an American accent is. Arthur would have talked in a P-Celtic language akin to Old Welsh.

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 10:53 AM

"Northerners and midlanders pronounce cup differently from southerners"

I'll borrow that brush to clean my yard. East midlanders and west midlanders speak differently from one another. Even within the a small area vowel intonation is different, a Birmingham dweller typically has a long 'south eastern' a, down the road in Wolverhampton, a short northern a is the norm.

Universal rock is closer to northern english than southern.

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 10:52 AM

Ah Mike! If only we were both younger, we could be teaching a course at Newcastle University - Elocution for Singer Songwriters 101.

All those lovely undie-graduates, we could have got our hands on......

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 10:30 AM

Bob Copper, Yes indeed a great singer and a good honest Sussex accent. But on one occasion when I visted him at his club he sang a blues number in his usual - as far as I am aware - voice and to me it just diddn't work. I seem to remember that he also committed a Sleepy John Estes song to disc which had the same effect on me. That doesn't mean that he shouldn't have performed them but for me it explains why a "cod" accent is sometimes preferable.
I know from a converastion with Bob that evening that we both shared a love and respect for American vernacular music and if we wish to sing it and enjoy doing so what the heck.

Someone above mentions the Barking Bard, one who does not sing with a cod or "mockney" accent. Personally I cannot listen to him especially when I have heard him do a Woody Guthrie number. But still he is a liberty to do so.

Regarding critics professional or otherwise, the opinions are only that of that one person.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: Old Vermin
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 09:54 AM

Pleased to see mention above of the Coppers. Bob had a lovely voice and very pleasant Sussex accent.

Not only is there still a Sussex accent to be heard from time to time, but there is also still a rural Surrey accent. Understated rural,not Hampshire, nor Sussex,a bit pinched maybe. Difficult to describe, and not glaringly obvious, but there nonetheless. I hear it sometimes in neighbours. The man next-door tells me his family have been local - well, a mile away in Farncombe - for the last three hundred years. A father and son up the road have a similar accent. They don't sing.

Don't think I've picked it up in 35 years, but who knows.

40-something years ago we might adopt a Scots or American accent or whatever in folk-club chorusing. As schoolboys, we did a cod-rural accent - extreme Borsetshire - for the Bog Down in the Valley-Oh. Wouldn't intentionally do any of that these days.

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: GUEST,Mr Red
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 09:25 AM

Mid Atlantic accent?

Where is Skarpi when we need him?

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 09:21 AM

hi,Norman, welcome to the asylum

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 09:20 AM

Northerners and midlanders pronounce cup differently from southerners, Ralph May[aka Mctell, has a south london accent,which is quite clear in his singing, it is a south london accent very similar to Carthy

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 09:14 AM

Well as you say Mike you're qualified all right - however any project which starts off with elocution tips for singer song writers....well I can see it being more of interest to elocution nerds than singer songwriters.

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: GUEST,Sometimes The Norm
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 08:19 AM

Further to your complaint may I add that:-

1)I have just watched a wooden version of "King Arthur" wherein the Arch-Saxon drawls in an accent unbeknownst to any other incontinent but America.

2)A reversable question.... How did KC get away with it in "Robin Of Hollywood".

P.S. Forget Dick Van Dyke

Norm

Subject: RE: Mid-Atlantic (accent) ~~ Why?
From: GUEST,Sometimes The Norm
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 08:05 AM

Met a funny little German once who hung around for awhile.
(He reckoned he was an expert on the 5-String banjo and had intimate knowledge of the "Folk Music" of his forefathers)....
I somehow managed to get him so pissed that he fell over backwards before he ever samg a word.
Don't remember which direction he was facing when he came to....

[Norm]