the UK folk revival in 2010

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 01:32 PM

PS - only joking Marge.
Can't get The Archers here in Ireland now as overseas BBC radio is taken over by the ******* cricket!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 01:28 PM

Folk and acoustic: I know what folk is in terms of song and music - acoustic defines as 'pertaining to sound' - which surely all music, whatever variety, does. However, am happy to accept F & A as a warning not to bother as it takes away any chance of choosing what I listen to (not keen on C&W, Wagner, hip-hop, garage, punk......)
If you think that turning a club over to non or bad singers is going to attract audiences (other than those who prefer non and bad singers) - we move in different circles. Practice before you go public, not in public. What do you do if, as one singer improves having practiced at your club, another bad singer comes along - ad infinitum? There are many ways to learn how to perform, but NEVER in front of an audience.
Landfill as far as I used it, refers to not giving the audience what you have promised but running a 'song' club rather than a 'folk' club; standards is a different question altogether.
As an ex-teacher you will be aware how self conciously frightened young people are of making a fool of themselves in front of strangers, especially a large number of them - it only takes one song to fall apart and you won't see them for dust - seen it happen.
Why are people so insistent that encouraging aspiring singers with help and advice rather than throwing them in at the deep end and watching them flounder, is abandoning them?
If I had been a casual individual interested in finding out what folk song was and had visited a club where you were "playing wrong chords, forgetting words and sounding really awful", I certainly wouldn't have come back. Did you expect the other singers at the club to pick up the pieces after you had made a fool of yourself and was the extra work you put them through worth it now you have "had your first professional booking"?   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 01:17 PM

having the balls to get up and perform in the first place

That should not be overlooked. My first floor spot was at Borehamwood Folk Club in about 1965, I was very nervous playing for a young lady known as the "singing matchstick" as she was so thin, and the guest artist for the night - I think it may have been Bert Jansch, came up to me and said "pretty good for a rock guitarist" - it obviously showed!

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Marje
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 12:56 PM

Oi, you lot, lay off the Archers!

The Archers has a lot in common with a good folk club, e.g:
People in the Archers don't fluff their lines or have to apologise for delivering them badly.
The younger actors are sometimes a bit clunky but often improve.
Several of the older ones have beards.
The Bull in Ambridge sells real ale.
The plotlines (like songs) often have good stories and some humour.
The Archers deals with many issues to do with England's rural heritage.
It has being going for almost 60 years, which is longer than most folk clubs.
And best of all, it's traditional!

What more could you a folkie want from a radio drama?

Marje

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: autoharpbob
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 12:20 PM

1. Many of the clubs I go to now are called "Folk and Acoustic.." - so I do know that I will hear a mixture of styles and am not disappointed. In amongst that will be some traditional folk. Thats great, I like the variety.

2. Many of the people I hear at these clubs have not succeeded yet in learning the words, being able to play competently, or in learning how to sing. I applaud them for having the balls to get up and perform in the first place, it does not put me off going back to that club and guess what - when I hear them again they have improved. The only way to learn how to perform is to do it, you cannot get good at performing before going out in public.

3. Encouraging the people above to keep coming is what makes a friendly and flourishing club. Discouraging them is what would kill off the club. I was useless when I started performing, playing wrong chords, forgetting words and sounding really awful. I had my first professional booking before Christmas. If I had been treated as landfill I doubt that I would have kept at it - except that I love what I am doing, so probably would have.

4. As an ex-teacher, I am used to making a fool of myself. IMHO you cannot be a teacher if you are afraid of this. Maybe thats why there are a lot of teachers in clubs.

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 10:09 AM

"i to assume then that folk in all its guises belongs to the collectors and academics"
No, it doesn't; it belongs to all of us - or so Walter Pardon once told us. Acedemics and collectors are just part of the process of passing it on, just as the singers in the clubs are part of that process.
It is up to all of us to value and take care of what we have been given so those who come after us get the same pleasure out of it that we did.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: romanyman
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 09:35 AM

with out starting the thread on a totally different road, do i and forgive me if im wrong, from the above post am i to assume then that folk in all its guises belongs to the collectors and academics therefore pushing it into the realms of club sshhers and the like, if you wants folk to be put into the eye of the public , take it to em . when i lived in wales there was an ol boy used to come into the boozer with a battered and obviously well loved sqeeze box, he would order his pint, sit in a corner or in the garden if the rain god was in a good mood, and off he would go playing away, no one booked him no one paid him he just played for the heck of it, once he had his pint off he would go now thats folk

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 08:34 AM

"academics and collectors and the Archers - all a pain in the neck!"
Wonder what we'd hav been singing if the collectors hadn't got off their bums and recorded them and the academics hadn't bothered to gather them up and publish them? Interesting that virtually every folk song has passed through the hands of a collector before it was made available.
Agree with you about the Archers though!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 07:58 AM

Just been digitising my recording of the John Kirkpatrick Wassail show at the Maltings in Farnham from December 1995 - with none other than George Faux in the band.

Now that's real trad folk!!!!!

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 06:10 AM

Beginners Tune Session tomorrow, Tuesday, the Beech, Beech Road, Chorlton, Manchester.

All welcome

L in C

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 05:09 AM

Some of us are committed to the music and the people who gave it to us and feel that they have been given a raw deal by many of the clubs.
Personally I'd rather try and put that right rather than indulge in a backslapping session of telling each other what a great job we're all doing - sorry if the answers don't suit you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: romanyman
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 04:12 PM

as usual thread breaks into slaging off session rather than a so called forum, ive been on the outside looking in and in my humble opinion if you want folk to be more widely thought of stop being so bloody eliteist, it happens everywhere, im still fighting with my bloody melodeon, i dance no i am part of a morris side, so you would think thats a good basis,       nah, our musician live miles away has a very busy job travels all over the place , so to sit down with me and try to help, is really a non starter. yes begginer sessions would be good and yes wether in a pub or a community setting, either would do, but again in my opinion if you had beginer or even folk sessions in a community setting im sure youd get more response. dunno,

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 03:27 PM

As I said further up

academics and collectors and the Archers - all a pain in the neck!

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Paul Reade
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 03:17 PM

This thread seems to have got completely away from the original question of "How can the revival be improved?" and degenerated into the usual "tradition v. others" arguments that we've been having for the last 50 years. In case you haven't noticed, whilst we've been having this argument, the audience has lost interest and gone elsewhere.

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: GUEST,Poxicat
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 03:15 PM

I trust this will serve as a consistent identity if I post using a proxy server.

Without getting sidetracked, I should like to know what this 2010 UK folk revival is and where I can find it.

By which I mean "folk", not contemporary acoustic and ARSS.

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 02:12 PM

Leveller,
It occurs to me that you might think my "sedentary pontifictor" remark was aimed at you - it wasn't. That seat is well and truely occupied and I have no doubt the occupant would totally resist any suggestion that he might move - sorry.
Congratulations Bryan.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: TheSnail
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 01:58 PM

I hope everybody had a thoroughly enjoyable Christmas; I certainly did. Discovered I'm going to be a Great Uncle.

Lots to respond to here but I'm just off to a session. Back tomorrow.

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: theleveller
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 12:56 PM

"we need to square the circle of designationg different types of music 'folk' that obviously, to me anyway, bear no relation to each other"

I suspect it would be easier to find the holy grail or guarantee world peace. I sympathise with your frustration because I know that you have devoted many, many years to the cause of traditional music.

I have decided that, personally, rather than argue about it I'd just rather listen to individual artists' take on it. So, if I listen to Chris Wood or Dick Miles or Mawkin or whoever, I've a rough idea of what to expect. Those who are new to me, I'll make my mind up about when I come across them. Certainly, from where I'm standing, the folk music scene here in Yorkshire is as vibrant and exciting as I can remember it ( and I'm an old git).

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 12:56 PM

yes, I see no harm in Blues clubs being labelled such, even though I consider it folk music,it is a specific type of folk music.
likewise if a club was to specialise in Indian Folk Music,it should be reasonable to describe it as such.

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 12:39 PM

Leveller;
I thought we were having a civilised debate too, and my intention certainly wasn't to convey any nastiness; if it does so, please accept my apologies. Your sense of humour does not offend me in the slightest and I have always read your postings with interest, though I might not agree with them.
I confess to becoming a little frustrated at times at having to go over the same ground over and over again, as I detect you do.
Despite the fact that I have been away from the club scene for some years, I attach a great deal of importance to it. It was my way into the music and I believe it still be can an introduction to others.
I am convinced that for that to be possible we need to square the circle of designationg different types of music 'folk' that obviously, to me anyway, bear no relation to each other, either in form or origin.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 12:25 PM

academics and collectors and the Archers - all a pain in the neck!

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 12:19 PM

Banjiman
this thread is about the uk folk revival,and that story is a recent happening in the uk folk revival,thats the relevance,this sort of thing should not be happening in folk clubs in the year 2010.
I am going to give this club a chance ,its got six months to come back and offer me an alternative date,if it doesnt I will name it.

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: theleveller
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 09:57 AM

"Jim, I think yourself and The Leveller probably share quite a lot in common over your tastes of what is presented in folk clubs"

Thanks Paul, I think that's probably very true. I do, however enjoy listening to a wide range of music that may or may not be called folk. Many of the songs I write do come from a traditional source - Jack and Jill is a story told to me over 40 years ago by an old farmer from the Yorkshire Wolds and much of what I write comes from the legends, stories or whathaveyou of that area and of Hull, two parts of East Yorkshire where my family comes from.

Anyway, back to the subject of folk clubs. I like to hear a mix of styles in clubs. The first clubs I went to, over 45 years ago were like this - lots of Americana, Dylan, "new" stuff from the pens of Jansch and others and, a real treat when I first heard them, The Watersons. They frequently came to our local clubs and I often went to The Blue Bell in Hull - but that wasn't a purely traddie club; I became acquainted with a wide range of music there. In fact, I think the only "policy" club I ever went to was The Singers' Club and decided (probably too) quickly that it wasn't for me.

Jim, I thought we were having quite a civilised debate here, so no need to get nasty - if my sense of humour offends you, I apologise (happens all the time :0).

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Aeola
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 09:35 AM

' words mean what they mean '

If only that were true, over the years words seem to change their meaning!

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: GUEST,Banjiman
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 09:08 AM

Dick, that is a horror story, but what is the relevance to this thread?

.....or have I missed something?


Jim, I think yourself and The Leveller probably share quite a lot in common over your tastes of what is presented in folk clubs. Certainly the material that Pete sings is all pretty traddy...... you should get the sound working on your computer again and have a listen to his self penned song "Jack & Jill". Very definitely in the tradition (as I would understand it anyway) and a real treat.

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 08:57 AM

Dick: that is unacceptable and unprofessional behaviour.
Do you not have a cancellation clause in your contract, like how much notice before some or all of the fee becomes due?
If you didn't I hope you've put one in now.
"Organisers" might be doing this as a spare time hobby, for you it is a livelihood.

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 08:39 AM

Sorry Leveller; cross posted;
"I find the use of the term 'landfill' for something that you personally don't like is extremely offensive"
Tough tittie - I have found terms like 'folk police' and 'finger-in-ear' and 'purist' extremely offensive down the years, but have had to learn to live with them as it seems to go with the territory. I find it offensive to drive half way across the county only to find some burke serenading the fluff in his navel with some sort of indefinable dirge when I have been promised an evening of folk song. I find it offensive when, after 35 years of field work I am told by some sedentary pontificator that I have rigged the evidence.
I have long come to the conclusion that these debates aren't for the faint-hearted and learned to live with it - suggest you do the same.
Your particular brand of music may be worth listening to if we are allowed to judge it on its own merits, but we are not being given the opportunity to do so while it is being passed off as folk music, so as far as I'm concerned 'landfill' will suit as well as any.
"It's folk, Jim - but not as you know it! "
See what I mean - define your terms.
Paul:
"even by your very tough and narrow definition."
As a researcher my definition is fairly narrow because that's what I do - research folk traditions (though I confess that moving to Ireland has forced me to rethink some of the ideas I have previously had - another story).
As a singer, club organiser and listener, my definition is not particularly narrow - I cut my teeth on MacColl and Seeger who have individually probably written more songs than any other performer on the folk scene. I listened to the new songs with pleasure, sang them (and still do), helped sell 'New City Songster', as far as I know the only magazine regularly produced to circulate new songs made in the folk idiom; I even tried (and failed miserably) to write some myself. I believe that without new songs the revival would be no more than a musical version of 'The Sealed Knot'.
My gripe is that much of what I have heard (and heard argued for) owes nothing whatever to the tradition, it certainly doesn't sound like it - fair enough, but I'd rather be doing something else and I resent being conned by being told it is folk song.
If you are presenting songs that I can identify with folk, you have my support and gratitude (can't listen to anything at the moment - my computer sound system is up the pictures).
If my side of the revival fails I will be very sorry, but it has to fail on it's own merits and not because it has been used as a dumping ground for something else.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: GUEST,woodsie
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 08:37 AM

I think that is a disgusting way to treat any artiste. The club in question should be named and shamed!

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 08:28 AM

here is something I feel should not be happening to any artist in 2009 or 2010 or anytime.
I was offered a booking at a UK midlands folk club,some 18 months ago,which I accepted[it was part of a week long tour]scheduled for june 2010, six months before the gig,the gig was cancelled,the reason given,was that there were too many squeeze boxers in a period of six weeks.
what has happened at the club is this:the previous booking secretary is now very ill,the person that has taken over the bookings now,has discovered that a third person,in an interim period booked a few people.
my booking was made 18 months ago,by the original bookings secretary ,
on receiving the email cancelling my booking,I replied offering a compromise: a reduction in my fee,or a possible alternative date, the problem[in this situation] is this that every club has their schedule arranged further than six months ahead,neither of the suggestions I offered appear to have been thought suitable by the present Folk club bookings secretary.
of course every folk club bookings secretary has a perfect right to book who they wish.
however cancellations at short notice should take into account the fact that an artist is on tour from another country,that other comparable artists who in fact live locally,are not going to be so inconvenienced[as regards finding accomodation].
I understand that folk clubs are run by amateurs,most of whom are professional in their attitude and who treat guest artists in a decent manner,but in my opinion the treatment given to me by this club, should not be given to any guest artist,and is not acceptable.
even if I was to be offered an alternative date,there is no guarantee I can make it part of a tour,[bearing in mind the original fee was a tour fee not a single one off fee]
is it surprising that so many talented performers give up [to the detriment of the scene], when they get treated in such a cavalier manner,look at all the talented performers who have given up over the last 15 years.
in fairness to the UK folk scene,this is probably only the third time this has happened in 30 years,but it should not happen at all.

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 07:56 AM

"The same could equally be said about those involved in the so-called Folk Revival which bears little functional, cultural or socio-economic relation to The Tradition it is claiming to Revive."

I'm not sure that that's true. I once heard a lecture from the folk scholar, Chris Bearman about the communities in Somerset from which Cecil Sharp collected many fine folk songs and which produced singers like Louie Hooper and Emma Overd. I seem to remember that the point of this lecture was that these singers tended to live in little sub-communities and I got the impression of one or two people in a sub-community gaining an interest in old songs and inspiring their neighbours to take up singing them as well. This is not so very different from the traditional song circles that I move in, although modern communications means that we no longer live 'cheek-by-jowel' as Sharp's informants did. The main difference today is that there are professional singers around and rich sources of material such as records, CDs, books and the internet.
I acknowledge that the material circumstances of the 'old style' traditional singers were very different to mine, as were their relationships to the society of their day (although not all trad. singers were poor or destitute by any means). But the more I read about them, the more I am struck by the realisation that the reasons why they sang old songs were not so very different from reasons why I and many of my friends sing old songs. After all trad. singers were people just like you and me and if they were lucky enough to have their material needs fulfilled (however inadequately) I would bet that they had the same needs for novelty, entertainment, self-expression etc. as we do.

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: GUEST,Banjiman
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 07:21 AM

Thanks for that Jim.

At least I've previously booked one artist on your "approved" list and she pulled in a crowd!....... and she even plays the banjo! Can't have it totally wrong then, even by your very tough and narrow definition.

I didn't ask you to adapt your definition, but as a club organiser I rely on pulling people in. If I don't then our club dies. To me, it is the nub of the argument, if you can't attract people in the music will die..... you've made the very point yourself (and you have blamed non-trad music in folk clubs as a reason why audiences might be dwindling).

We try to put on a varied programme, but most of the acts we book play/sing at least some traditional songs & tunes, or very trad sounding material. We put on a few acts that move away from this for a bit of variety. The average age of our audience is 40 - 50 (with a fair smattering of teens, 20's & 30's) which pretty much mirrors the demographic of the very rural area in which we live.

I think you would enjoy most of the evenings that we put on Jim and it's really very easy nowadays to check out an artist on YouTube, MySpace etc to see if they are your cup of tea.

Lay off the UK clubs a bit mate, they're probably not all like you imagine.

Leveller, thanks for your kind words.

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 06:41 AM

"And just where did I say I don't believe in research?"
Please don't make me dig it out - you said it word for word - If I am wrong, please show me some of yours.
Folk was a term conceived to identify and explain a cultural phenomenon and its origins - if you've got a better one, let's have it.
Banjiman:
Plenty of example of people who would be 'folk' enough for me - Terry Yarnell, Bob Blair, Len Graham, Kevin and Ellen Mitchell, Gordeanna McCulloch, Sara Grey, Peggy Seeger..... hundreds of Irish singers and musicians (all bringing in audiences and attracting youngsters onto the scene over here).
Whether they would bring in audiences is beside the point of this argument - I really don't adapt my definitions to fill the clubs; words mean what they mean.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: theleveller
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 06:33 AM

"we can no longer go to a 'folk' venue and listen to the music that we like, the way that we could say twenty-odd years ago. "

"my freedom to choose what I listen to has been curtailed"

I'm not sure who this "we" is that you refer to and I don't see how your freedom has been curtailed. If you don't like what you hear in a club, you have the freedom to leave - the people who go there obviously enjoy what they hear. Most people who go to folk clubs - certainly the ones I go to - have a wide taste in folk music, both booked artistes and in singarounds. I don't like all of it but it is a real joy to go along and discover some new talent that would otherwise have escaped me. I'm sorry that your tastes are so narrow that you can't appreciate the people who are writing the folk music of today. Incidentally, is that the view you take of the songs that Ewan MacColl wrote? Personally I much prefer those to his renditions of traditional songs.

I find the use of the term 'landfill' for something that you personally don't like is extremely offensive - what you are saying is that your taste is good but mine is rubbish!

One of the best folk clubs around is Kirkby Fleetham run by Banjiman (Paul Arrowsmith) and his wife, Wendy, who is herself an excellent example of people who are writing and performing songs in the folk idiom. The success of this club is testament to the fact that folk is alive and well.

It's folk, Jim - but not as you know it!

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 06:16 AM

SO'P had declared long and loud that mine, and others like me's idea of folk is the invention of academics and collectors;

Folk is an academic concept of culture defined by criteria developed by outsiders seeking an objective viewpoint - as E.P. Thomson said: Folklore in England is largely a literary record of eighteenth and nineteenth century survivals, recorded by parsons and genteel antiquarians regarding the across a gulf of class condescension. (Folklore, Anthropology and Social History, 1979). The same could equally be said about those involved in the so-called Folk Revival which bears little functional, cultural or socio-economic relation to The Tradition it is claiming to Revive.

And just where did I say I don't believe in research? Maybe that's another of your obtuse misreadings of what I actually wrote. Point is, I know when the sun is up, Jim - it is as empirically self-evident as the true nature of Folk.

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: GUEST,Banjiman
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 05:55 AM

Jim,

Anyone actually still alive that a folk club organiser could book that would be "folk" enough for you? (and who would bring in an audience).

Names would be useful.

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 05:06 AM

"I think what we need to do is stop the pointless and unproductive arguments about what is folk music"
To an extent I sympathise with Levellers comment, but it seems to me inevitable that when the subject of clubs or the revival comes up, eventually it will come down to an argument on definitions, simply for the reason that many of us feel the word "folk" has been usurped by something that bears no relation whatever to its meaning. This means that we can no longer go to a 'folk' venue and listen to the music that we like, the way that we could say twenty-odd years ago. This hasn't happened through 'evolution'; much of the music that is being performed under the auspices of folk has its own history, identity and definitions, but has been unceremoniously crammed under the term 'folk' for the convenience of a group of people who, it seems to me, were looking for a pit to hiss in, can't be bothered to dig their own, so the folk clubs were as good a venue as any.
SO'P had declared long and loud that mine, and others like me's idea of folk is the invention of academics and collectors; he is perfectly at liberty to hold that view, but if he is going to make any headway with it, he really is going to back it up with something more than empty declarations. I certainly don't object to his thinking the way he does, but I do feel it more than a trifle arrogant that he should try to wipe the slate of centuries of work with – well – none of his own; he doesn't believe in research!
In the long run it doesn't matter; those who would wish for 'folk' to mean something else have not come up with a viable alternative, a body of work, even a logical argument to back up their claims, and rely totally on the Humpty Dumpty philosophy of "words mean what I want them to mean". This doesn't make for good communication and, as far as it affects me personally, means my freedom to choose what I listen to has been curtailed by the fact that I can no longer trust folk clubs to provide me with what I am looking for as I once could.
As far as the future is concerned, we have our credentials in the form of a workable definition (certainly in need of adjustment) and our literature, recordings and documentation. Our work as researchers and collectors has been carried out (thirty-odd years of field work with traditional singers in our case), indexed, annotated, documented, archived and made available for public scrutiny, and will survive long after the landfill sites have been bulldozed over and parks put in their place. If nothing else, it's comforting to think people will be listening and referring to Sam Larner, Harry Cox, Walter Pardon, Mary Delaney, Bill Cassidy, Tom Lenihan, et al, long after the snigger snogwriters have faded from memory. Even the work of the best of the revivalists, MacColl, Lloyd, McGinn, Tawney….. has been documented well enough to be reference points for the foreseeable future.   
Pip may be right that the clubs will survive as landfill sites for a time to come, but they will have to clean up their act – literally – audiences don't renew themselves indefinitely unless there is something worth making the effort for, and the tuneless mumblings of forgotten words, by 'singers' who don't understand what they are singing and are not encouraged (or think it will spoil their enjoyment and so can't be bothered) to put in the necessary work just won't hack it. This is evidenced by the fact that many of today's clubs are populated by and large by crumblies of my generation who will eventually fall off the twig, leaving nothing. The need for standards was recognised as far back as the seventies and eighties when one of the great headlines which preceded the folk 'holocaust' then was "Crap Begets Crap" and it certainly does.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 04:32 AM

Well I don't mind at all, though I do object to Bozo's teminology. I don't go to folk clubs to judge musical ability, rather to celebrate to wonders of traditional song and the potency such material has to invariably lift my spirits no matter who sings it, just as long as they have a passion.

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 04:26 AM

all manner of loner looser and scruff

Another example of Bozo's social conscience.

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 04:17 AM

nobody minds

Oh yes they do.

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 04:14 AM

"Some people don't make sure they're on top of a song before singing it in public - and I think there is something wrong with that."

Well, if you go to one of the London folk clubs, you will see all manner of loner looser and scruff who are almost certainly not on top of anything yet alone a song, but they simply take part and nobody minds.

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 07:06 PM

It is a very bigoted view to think that song sheets should not be used.

I didn't say that, and don't hold that view. What I did say (and you quoted) was:

"Some people don't make sure they're on top of a song before singing it in public - and I think there is something wrong with that."

Nothing there about song sheets.

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 05:19 PM

"Unless you only go to watch traditional music."

Watch traditional music?? Personally I don't perceive any sort of music through my eyes ... but I suppose in certain very rare cases a few people might ...?

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 05:10 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOrd3JJePIc&feature=PlayList&p=0BEBEADB0557BC9C&index=0&playnext=1

that's better!

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 05:08 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOrd3JJePIc&feature=PlayList&p=0BEBEADB0557BC9C&index=0&playnext=1

Richard Shindell forgets the words to You Stay Here!!!

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 05:04 PM

I sympathise both with SO'P, who points out how the label "folk" is often used nowadays, and with Jim, who points out that that label on the tin gives a poor indication of what you're likely to find inside.

Perhaps dear Jim will hit the roof at me saying this but essentially I feel the same way he does. I'd just as soon as not use use the word Folk at all because of what it has come to mean - or rather come to mean nothing at all, or else everything that is performed by enthusiastic amateurs in a folk club regardless of genre. Whilst I think this is, in general, a very good thing, it no longer floats my particular boat.

When it comes to Traditional Song I am infamously tolerant of all abilities, and am generally happy to hear any Traditional Song sung by anyone, regardless of musical ability. Some of my favourite singers of trad. songs are some of the worst singers in terms of conventional technical musicality, but their passion, knowledge & understanding of the material override any such considerations.

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 04:11 PM

Some folks cannot remember the words to songs so they have a piece of paper handy to remind them. Nothing wrong with that.

Some people don't make sure they're on top of a song before singing it in public - and I think there is something wrong with that

Listen, Richard Shindell ALWAYS has his word book and I should think that he makes a pretty good living - he lives in Buenos Aires and commutes to the USA and Europe. Polly Bolton who perhaps has one of the best folk voices ever in the UK, ALWAYS had her words.

It is a very bigoted view to think that song sheets should not be used. Some people simply have short term memory loss.

I have heard men who sound like bleating sheep singing in folk clubs but I would never say that they should not perform. I saw a female duo in a Euston folk club having a chat as if they were in their kitchen at home before they sang, but I would never say that they should not perform.

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 03:59 PM

In response to Mike's points, just above:

1. Yes there is evolution, but a major aspect of the evolution during some periods such as around 100 years ago and around 50 years ago (and to a lesser extent before and since) was the devotion of considerable efforts to collecting, disseminating and performing material that was looking likely to be lost without such efforts. I thing "revival" is a good label for that aspect.

2. I sympathise both with SO'P, who points out how the label "folk" is often used nowadays, and with Jim, who points out that that label on the tin gives a poor indication of what you're likely to find inside. This is epitomised by GUEST,John Tucker's posting
> Folk Music is alive and kicking in clubs up and down the country! People of all standards from beginners to pros are coming in each week to perform wonderful songs by the classic masters of the genre - Bob Dylan, Ewan MacColl, Joni Mitchell, Richard Thompson, Donovan, Billy Bragg and lots more.<

I would regard those song writers as masters of some of the range of genres that all get lumped together as "folk". And John didn't mention traditional songs at all, though some of those people have sung those as well as their own compositions.

3. At the one club that I have attended at all often in the last decade or so I don't think either the blend of material or the standards to which it is performed have changed much. I am in no position to agree or disagree for any other clubs.

4. I agree. I disapprove of crib sheets in general, but they are legitimate in some special circumstances. Two that I sometimes see are a newly written song, which the song writer gives an airing to as work in progress (a bit like a beta software version, only to be inflicted on willing victims); and a song that is outside the singer's usual repertoire and brought out for special reasons on a particular occasion.

5. No opinion, yet. Try different arrangements and see what works.

Richard

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: MikeL2
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 03:00 PM

hi

As usual here there is a very wide gulf of opinions..........

Could I try to stay as close to the thread as possible by offering the following -:

1. There is no folk revival but a constant evolution which has been happening for as long as music has been played and sung. It is evolving in ways which some people here don't like.

2. There seems to be a view among some that folk isn't folk if it isn't traditional folk. Not true.....Traditional folk music is a small ingredient in the whole package.

3. Folk clubs are declining in standards. Again not true. Unless you only go to watch traditional music.

4. Use of crib sheets and other aide-memoirs are unforgivable. I don't necessarily agree. It depends how they and when they are used.
I don't believe that they should be an excuse for not learning and practising the material thoroughly.
For instance in my time I have perfomed literally hundreds of songs - most of which I learned and practised to my best standard possible.
However sometimes on stage for no accountable reason I suffered " mind blocks". I used to prepare some cryptic guides to help me remember the words, which on occasions I did have to use.....but I did so discreetly and in a way that most people never knew that I was doing it.

5. Workshops may well be extremely valuable as teaching and learning aids but I don't like the idea of becoming integrated into folk club nights.

My hope for the coming years is that all folk enthusiasts of whatever leaning try to pull together and improve the image of the whole.

United we stand - divided we fall and all that.....

Mike

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 02:30 PM

"Some folks cannot remember the words to songs so they have a piece of paper handy to remind them. Nothing wrong with that. Some folks cannot sing in tune but it's the taking part that matters -"

As a singer who does manage to remember the words without a crib sheet, and one who has to work very hard at learning the tune, I feel rather insulted by people who can't be bothered to do either.

As a member of the audience I much prefer to listen to people who know the words and can hold a tune. If you're a beginner good luck to you, but please put the work in in private, and get some advice and feedback from other singers, before you inflict yourself on me!

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 02:20 PM

. Some folks cannot sing in tune but it's the taking part that matters,QUOTE.
NO, 99 percent of the people can sing in tune if they work at it,train their ears, learn to breathe well,learn where to pitch their songs.
however taking part is important too,and trying to improve,amnd learning to perform has to be a doing it experience.,that is why recording oneself and listening critically is important,so that you can get better each time,nobody minds a beginner, who is nervous but can be seen to be improving on each performance.