Brexit #2

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Aug 18 - 01:40 PM

Rag,
Keith you do not know which newspapers or other media sources I access.

I have read all your posts on this and you have only ever linked to or quoted Guardian articles.
If you had read any Leave papers how could you claim, "To date almost every single report I have read has been in the negative."

You have now posted twice with attacks upon people who favour the remain site and have not, as yet addressed the subject.

I have not. I have only disagreed with them.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 01 Aug 18 - 01:26 PM

Whether Jeremy Hunt is a reliable source of not be is still a senior member of the cabinet.

But the problem with both he and many other mp's is, are they for or against Brexit? Their party colours ain't necessarily their batting colours. This adds further complexity in trying to puzzle out who and what can be believed or nor believed. How many MPs are trying to forward Brexit, and how many to frustrate it.

Is May a passionate Leaver or a traitor? The jury has largely made it's mind (in my case)

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Aug 18 - 12:45 PM

Why was a quote made by Iains put in my name?
This thread is an attempt to keep things civil and calm. Misattributions don't help.

On the other thread I attempted for quite a while to distinguish between Leavers and Brexiteers, though in the end I gave up. A leaver may well have voted to leave as a matter of balance: some who voted remain or leave will not have finally decided until they had the pencil on their hand. Others will have mixed feelings, liking some of the leave arguments but not others. Only a comparatively small number are likely to have been leave at any cost Brexiteers. Equally, remainers also cover a spectrum of views. Can I then suggest we try to avoid terms like Brexiteer except for those towards the very end of the spectrum?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Aug 18 - 12:36 PM

Whether Jeremy Hunt is a reliable source of not be is still a senior member of the cabinet. If senior members of the cabinet, who have access to information we are denied, are voicing concerns, then I think it is a worry.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Aug 18 - 12:17 PM

Iains, I can understand your concerns in that regard, however, whether you or I like the fact, the world is changing and the ideals that you and I held thirty, forty, or fifty years ago are history.

We have to deal with the now, and we have to deal with the future and the ever growing globalisation of the world.

The fundemental question is whether to be a part of a big organisation or be a very little fish in a very big pond, and as you and I both know little fish invariably get eaten.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Aug 18 - 12:11 PM

Keith you do not know which newspapers or other media sources I access.

I link to the Guardian because, in the main, it echoes my own opinions which I arrive at after having read many sources.

You have now posted twice with attacks upon people who favour the remain site and have not, as yet addressed the subject.

If you continue to do so, I will have no other option than to ask the moderators to delete your posts.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 01 Aug 18 - 12:04 PM

Raggy I suspect how a person voted was driven by their perception of what the EU was morphing into, today, tomorrow, 5,10,20 years down the road. No matter how much TPTB dodge the issue, I feel it is all about destroying the nation state, constucting a US of Europe with all power financial, economic and planning being tighly grasped by centrists.
This is not the world signed up for in 1973. The Bilderbergs and globalists of the world may embrace the idea. I do not and never will.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Aug 18 - 11:59 AM

DMcG,
So far all we are getting is progressively more hysterical exaggerations from both sides,

There has been no hysterical exaggeration from Leave side.

Rag,
To date almost every single report I have read has been in the negative.

That is because Guardian only prints negative reports, and you only read the Guardian.

The problem here is that Remainers worry about everything and believe every scare story, while Leavers only worry that Brexit will not not be delivered because the establishment is trying to subvert the process.

That is the whole discussion.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Aug 18 - 11:50 AM

Iains, I think we all understand that the discussion has two sides.

What I and other people have asked for is some indication of what good bits the UK can expect. To date almost every single report I have read has been in the negative.

I honestly would like to believe that some good could result of us leaving the EU but to date I have seen none.

Therein lies the fundemental problem.

And now we have a situation where a senior member of the cabinet is clearly expressing his concerns.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 01 Aug 18 - 11:40 AM

In todays Guardian Jeremy Hunt, the Home Secretary, has suggested that the possibility of a "no deal situation" outcome is growing by the day. He suggested that this "is a huge geo-strategic mistake".

In today's Express "THE EUROPEAN Union is finally accepting Brussels needs to “fudge” crucial Brexit negotiations and offer the UK a vague blueprint for future ties with the bloc as tensions surrounding the divorce deal increase."
The Daily Wail:Just 5,000 jobs are expected to go in the City because of Brexit - despite earlier forecasts of 200,000 cuts

So who to believe?

So far all we are getting is progressively more hysterical exaggerations from both sides, in a world where nothing is agreed until all is agreed.
A lot of posturing and nonsense from both sides I suspect.
With no deal, both sides end up losers. Every upside has a downdside.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Aug 18 - 11:30 AM

SPB: What is this problem with 'open skies and aviation safety'?
Where can I read about it to see whether you viewpoint is valid?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 01 Aug 18 - 11:02 AM

I concur - this is potentially the most far reaching event in UK and Europe for decades which could have an impact on more than half a billion peoples lives, and a greater impact on over 60 million lives in the UK, and when we hear, now almost on a daily basis, potential problems - the latest being continuation of an open skies and aviation safety deal if the UK refuses to recognise the ECJ as an overarching regulator. I will continue to voice my concerns on these matters and say why I am concerned, and respect the right of those who hold opposing views to explain why there is no cause for concern. Also I respect the right of some to say that they are not bothered about how things may impact on other peoples lives, as long as they are honest enough to say they don't care less and own that view rather than profess to be speaking on behalf of the UK electorate, and comments like 'they are only saying that because they want to remain, are traitors, it is all fake news is singularly unhelpful in progressing the debate and providing the reassurances that people are looking for.

So yes, lets ask the questions that need to be answered, lets hear both sides opinions about what is likely to happen, and why they think that, lets try to avoid thread drift into endlessly repeating polarised views on sub-topics, and above all, not engage in insulting language directed at other mudcatters (though I would suggest that politicians could be fair game).

Anyway, that is my two-pennorthworth of ground rules.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: JP2
Date: 01 Aug 18 - 10:57 AM

Completely agree Nick,but,and it's a big but,I'm not holding my breath!

I voted to remain in 1974 and the same again last time and nothing that I've heard in the last two years about leaving has made me sanguine about the future.

I've always taken the view that if the European Adventure has done nothing else it has meant that nobody in my family has been forced to put on a uniform,pick up a gun and fight in a European war since 1945.

There,I did that without being rude or offensive to anyone!!

JP2.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Aug 18 - 10:48 AM

Foreign secretary surely Raggy?

Anyway, as I kept saying elsewhere, we all know what people mean so it doesn't really matter ;-)

Here you go.

D.

Subject: Brexit #2
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Aug 18 - 10:36 AM

OK Can we now have a discussion about Brexit without personal attacks, without name calling and one that sticks to the topic, without deviation or picking up on spelling or perceptions of the use of words.

We are all supposed to be adult and have a modicum of intelligence, hopefully that will remain to be the case.

In todays Guardian Jeremy Hunt, the Home Secretary, has suggested that the possibility of a "no deal situation" outcome is growing by the day. He suggested that this "is a huge geo-strategic mistake".

Could someone kindly provide a link to the article.

PS I will ask the Moderators to delete any post that contains even a slight personal attacks on anybody no matter which side they support.