BS: The Atheist Delusion

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 08:47 AM

You will also note that Pacelli was not the only person to ever have balanced one evil against another.   Note Churchill's famous quote the night before Operation Barbarossa started:

"If Hitler invaded Hell, I would at least make a favorable reference to the Devil in the House of Commons."

Nor was Pacelli the only person to think he could negotiate with Hitler and come out of it with a worthwhile outcome:   consider, Munich, Chamberlain and "peace in our time."

In fact Pacelli was one of the first to try to get a quid pro quo from Hitler.   In this case his goal was to assure that Catholicism would not be attacked in Germany.

However German Catholics, with a much clearer picture of what was actually going on in Germany, opposed the idea of a Concordat--and remained a strong party in Germany.

Cornwell p 133:

In the March 1993 elections "....the Catholic Center" (party) "which had conducted a courageous campaign in the face of widespread Nazi intimidation, remained impressively solid at 13.9 percent, actually gaining three more Reichstag seats."

Right up until March 1933,, then, German Catholicism, with its 23 million faithful, still comprised an impressive, independent democratic constituency that, together with the Catholic hierarchy, remained steadfast in its condemnation of National Socialism.   While the Center Party had no viable allies to form a coalition, and therefore no purchase on power, Hitler feared a reaction from the bastion of political Catholicism as a whole, a group that was naturally much larger than the Center Party vote, with extensive links and associations on many levels throughout the country. Because of his long-standing determination to avoid a new Kulturkampf and the attendant risk of a successful Catholic noncooperation or resistance, Hitler was not inclined to tackle the bishops head-on.   
Something nevertheless had to be done to neutralize them and it was here that Pacelli's Reich Concordat ambitions came to Hitler's aid.."

From Hitler's point of view, the ideal solution to the Catholic threat was precisely a summit agreement with the Vatican in all respects similar to the Lateran Treaty, which had outlawed Catholic political action in Italy and effectively integrated the Church into Fascist Italy."

"There could be no Reich Concordat, however, without the bishops reversing their denunciation of National Socialism".

more later

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 08:11 AM

More from Cornwell, p 110:

Meanwhile two Catholic journalists, Fritz Gerlich and Ingbert Naab, excoriated National Socialism in the pages of the Munich-based periodical 'Der Gerade Weg', characterizing the movement as a 'plague'. In the issse dated July 21, 1932, the writers declared that "National Socialism means enmity with neighboring countries, despotism in internal affairs, civil war international war. National Socialism means lies, hatred, fratricide, and unbounded misery. Adolf Hitler preaches the law of lies. You who have fallen victim to the deceptions of one obsessed with despotism, wake up.'

So why did Pacelli seek an accommodation with Hitler?

Primarily because of other enemies.

Cornwell, p 112:

"Lenin, and Stalin after him, had never concealed their intentions. They had declared war on religion itself and the Orthodox Church in Russian had suffered widespread murderous persecution at the hands of the Communists since 1917. Bishops and priests were jailed and murdered; churches were despoiled and destroyed or turned into atheist museums; the schools and the press were exploited as a means of vilifying religion.   It became a crime to teach children under sixteen about God."

"Although Roman Catholics in Russia numbered no more than 1.5 million and offered noo threat to the regime, the Catholic Church was no less a victim of Bolshevik persecution."

"By 1930 there were no more than 300 Catholic priests in Soviet Russia (compared with 963 in 1921), of whom 100 were in prison."

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 07:54 AM

When I said, we should look for shades of gray, I did not mean to deny that there are such things as true villains.   My top candidates for truly evil people would be those who cause the deaths of the largest number of humans.

That would be: Hitler, Stalin, and Mao.   Atheists all.   Not to forget Lenin--another atheist.

To return to the book by Cornwell, Hitler's Pope:

And going back to the time before the Concordat:

p 110 (Cornwell):

In the spring of 1931 a Catholic Reichstag representative, Karl Trossmann, published a best-selling book entitled Hitler and Rome, in which he described the National Socialists as a 'brutal party that would do away with all the rights of the people'    Hitler, he declared, was dragging Germany into a new war, a war that "would only end more disastrously than the last.'   Not long after, the Catholic author Alfons
Wild published a widely distributed essay entitled 'Hitler and Catholicism' in which he proclaimed that 'Hitler's view of the world is not Christianity but the message of race, a message that does not proclaim peace and justice but rather violence and hate.'

(to be continued)

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 07:57 PM

More likely my reading slag - sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Slag
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 07:52 PM

It was meant to be humorous, Jon! Sorry if I failed.

re the second point, the "called out" are the church. "Where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst." JC

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 07:48 PM

Waht are non-churches of non-believers?

Round here atm , I am aware of a Christian fellowship which has no affiliation (although I think they follow the Baptist ideas) I am also aware of a COE church that pretty well sorts itself out - it would have been closed had it not.

I have met the people who do the organisation of both and I can assure you they are very much believers. I can't speak for them but I think you would find that it is their faith/belief/whatever and wanting to share that which keeps them going.

If I ever did find faith properly, I'd personally rather be at one of these places than I would a "major church"..

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Slag
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 07:23 PM

I sense denominational differences may soon result in disaeastablishmentarieanism and a plethora of new non-churches of non-believers. Un-A, Un-men!

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 05:59 PM

Love thy neighbour but most of us fail in some way at some point.

Sorry, no at numerous points.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 05:47 PM

Jack, it is quite easy. If you belonged to a race of green people and I belonged to a race of blue people some (not all) politician with want for power is going to say something maybe like the cause of our problems are the green people. We have gone that sort of way for centuries.

Personally and doubly personally as this is the way I want to believe, Christianity should offer a way out of that, not in to that.

Love thy neighbour but most of us fail in some way at some point.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 05:23 PM

Politicians use any pretext they can to get people in support of a war which they want support for. Little Hawk's statement was crystal clear to me. So wassup, Jacko?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 05:15 PM

Politicians use any pretext they can to get people in support of a war.

That is a pretty broad statement. Have you heard of Neville Chamberlain?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 04:43 PM

Politicians use any pretext they can to get people in support of a war, and religion's a handy one. What the wars are generally really about though are land, resources, trade, and money.

Politicians also use religion to get people's votes, but they don't do that FOR religion itself. They do it to get into power.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 04:21 PM

I would tend to ask "How many of these wars and atrocities were actually less about theological disagreements and more about secular power and economic advantage, with religion being a rationalization to cover the real goals?"

Sorry for a me too but in trying to get myself back to the thread subject.. me too and very much so.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 04:14 PM

We had a squirrel taking peanuts from a bird feeder this year. Didn't mind that. One of our 3 cats and I'm pretty sure it would have been Worthy got him though.

(btw Rags on pet numbers in case you remember who we had, don't know if you remember a pic of Bella our grey cat or of Misty the dog. Both had to be put down this year. Misty's heart problems got worse and worse and diuretics, etc. did not work Bella developed some form of quick spreading face thing I guess was a cancer)

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 04:07 PM

I would tend to ask "How many of these wars and atrocities were actually less about theological disagreements and more about secular power and economic advantage, with religion being a rationalization to cover the real goals?"

All of 'em, Don, every single one. I'm a rabid atheist (according to some), but I know that arguments that claim that things "are done in the name of religion" (or atheism, come to think of it) are generally eyewash. There are plenty of arguments against religion already that don't require bringing in holy wars and the rest.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 03:46 PM

Yeah, I think the chipmunk has stored up so many peanuts that's he's decided to just hole up now for the duration.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 03:42 PM

That's an old pic, ragdall. He (as you know, a stray) wandered further after that pic and wound up with a bit of an ear chopped off (my own feeling is that it was a marking for ferals to indicate he was neutered by a vet/local cat group) before deciding that we actually did provide a good home for him. I was not sure if he would stay but he seems very well settled in spite of his snotty moods.

Not sure how to get back on topic from here...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: ragdall
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 03:30 PM

Meet Worthy the Snot Cat

Worthy certainly does portray attitude, Jon. I'm glad to see he's still around and looking so well.

LH, maybe the munk has decided it's time to dig in for a long sleep? I hope it will turn up safe and sound when it's warmer.

rags

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 03:23 PM

"Over the years if you add up the Crusades, Auto-de-fes, religious wars (even being fought now), troubles in Ireland, Israel and the Palestinians, the purge by the Catholic Church over the Knights Templar, British history regarding Elizabeth and Mary Queen of Scots, the Holocaust (a religious war), the use of religion to encourage slavery in the American South, the rise of the K.K.K. (with the burning cross), and religious wars over every period of history (there has never been peace among religions), they eclipse Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot atrocities. . . ."

I would tend to ask "How many of these wars and atrocities were actually less about theological disagreements and more about secular power and economic advantage, with religion being a rationalization to cover the real goals?"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 03:18 PM

I've known cats all my life Jack. Know there get what they want from you ways, etc. but this one is especially snotty at times.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 03:13 PM

Duh.... He's a cat!!

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 03:06 PM

No Jack, he just can have snotty moods.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 03:05 PM

I didn't see the snot. Does it not photograph well?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 03:03 PM

Well if it's going to drift that way. I have a lovely snotty mate. He really can be snotty in mood is big and a bully to other cats but there is plenty loveable about hin. Meet Worthy the Snot Cat

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:58 PM

Isn't calling someone "snotty" a little "snotty?"

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:54 PM

I like Ron too. But I don't like the way he becomes totally snotty and intransigent when he's involved in a debate on some Mudcat thread.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:51 PM

I think Ron is fine. I have no problem with him as a person. But he is trying to pick a fight.

Shaw is happy to fight with him. On this thread and the others, they need each other and re the "mates."

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:49 PM

To be clear, I was talking about Ron Davies, who is clearly Steve Shaw's mate. I don't talk to either of them on these threads.

Heheh, nice flip, Jack. However, you should know that I'd rather smother my privates in honey and bring on the dancing ants than count Ron among my circle of mates. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,999--that was me above. I have slapped my w
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:48 PM

I like Ron.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:47 PM

Once Ron Davies has decided to take any position in an argument, he becomes as immovable as a barnacle and as eternal as death and taxes. If we could get him to argue both sides, we'd have a perpetual motion machine. I'm used to it. I talk to him for as long as I find it amusing to do so, but not because I think it will achieve anything. It's just fun, that's all. Gives me a way to while a way the hours...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:44 PM

This gets heavy but,

Stringsinger, I have difficulty with free thinking these days as my own mind even though it is supposed to be logical has got so much wrong over the years.

I'd personally also have difficulty in free thinking as very personally I would like to submit to the power I believe is real.

Adherence is something I would try to do and have tried and failed to do...

But, yes I do see your point about "political theology" and I do not want to follow anything like that.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:42 PM

To be clear, I was talking about Ron Davies, who is clearly Steve Shaw's mate. I don't talk to either of them on these threads.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:40 PM

I would agree with that, Jack.

However...

People interpret these things strictly according to their own prior prejudices...they are generally either FOR or AGAINST religion, and they come to voice their prejudice yet again. They come to these threads for the same type of reason someone goes to a pornography site: to repeat past behaviour.

It's okay if you can see the funny side of it and not let it make you angry or mess up your day. That's why I'm worrying about the chimpmunk instead.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:37 PM

>>Obviously someone doesn't understand either the word atheism or the word delusion.<<

He understands.

He is just trying to pick a fight. As Dawkins was.

Er, I think Mrrzy was referring to your mate Ron, not me, Wacko. I could be wrong as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:33 PM

I think in pretty much every one of those cases it was a case of people with religions fighting wars for other reasons and the religion being used along with other inducements to rally support.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:32 PM

"Vanity of vanities. All is vanity".

In other words, everything's a delusion.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:31 PM

The only historical religious war involving atheists was Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot but they only claimed to be atheists but in fact were lead by a political "theology". FreeThinkers don't subscribe to any political "theology". They are skeptics that question any ideology that demands adherence to it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:27 PM

History is often not agreed upon. A lot depends upon whom you read.

Over the years if you add up the Crusades, Auto-de-fes, religious wars (even being fought now), troubles in Ireland, Israel and the Palestinians, the purge by the Catholic Church over the Knights Templar, British history regarding Elizabeth and Mary Queen of Scots, the Holocaust (a religious war), the use of religion to encourage slavery in the American South,
the rise of the K.K.K. (with the burning cross), and religious wars over every period of history (there has never been peace among religions), they eclipse Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot
atrocities. Don't forget that Hirohito was into a form of Shintoism. Every war has had a religious component. Remember the Anti-Communist Christian Crusade?

Religious misinformation is a staple of propaganda to salve the guilty consciences
of the so-called "believers".

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:14 PM

Quite well, thank you for asking. Working on another one now...more like a new arrangement of an older piece that is really cool. I'm trying to set up a thing where I can send stuff, but very anonymously.

Little Hawk: "The woodpecker is here anyway..."

Ah, Its Captain Hawk and the mystery of morning wood!

Grin, GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 01:45 PM

Hey, GfS. I don`t know whether you saw the post I put (on some thread). I was asking how that music project you were working on at that time--about 7 or 8 moons ago--worked out. Well, I hope. I certainly understand if you can`t respond here. Just want you to know I wish you the best.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 01:43 PM

The woodpecker is here anyway. That's good.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 01:35 PM

Guest 999: "I don`t see that having a supreme being has particularly helped the human race, but not having one hasn`t helped either..."

Yeah, what's the difference if one is too self absorbed, to pay attention, anyway. It just means, that perhaps, they are out of step, marching to a different drummer...then arguing about the tempo!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 01:23 PM

I think, on occasion.

These types of threads bring to mind the following: You (whoever you are) have a right to your beliefs to do with a supreme being or a lack thereof. And in the same way, you also have a right to keep it to yourself. If that statement has offended anyone, so be it (that`s the polite way of saying tough shit).

I don`t see that having a supreme being has particularly helped the human race, but not having one hasn`t helped either. My beliefs to do with this topic are private, a position I wish others would adopt.

I dream lots. Say goodnight, Gracie.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 01:13 PM

I don't think it's religion or the lack of it that makes people in power jerks. I think it's the power. I think religion is only an excuse, and anyone who thinks the whole world should be like them is only look for an excuse.

Part agree and part disagree there.

On the people in power, I think it is a spot the difference game. If we were all UK football supporters, WWIII could be created by he supports Liverpool and I support ManU

On the other part. I think there is a desire for anyone with strong beliefs (including atheist ones) to put those beliefs forward. An excuse, no. I wish I could properly find Christ. I could wish you could too... I could wish others could too... but whatever happens or doesn't has to come in its own way. One can not make anything. It is not something I or anyone else can dictate.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 12:44 PM

>>Obviously someone doesn't understand either the word atheism or the word delusion.<<

He understands.

He is just trying to pick a fight. As Dawkins was.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 12:41 PM

Sigh. Obviously someone doesn't understand either the word atheism or the word delusion.
At least there is still the sensible thread, albeit long.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 12:32 PM

you mean atheism as a positive stance or atheism as in "religion is nothing to do with me."
Actually, I don't think I'm in either camp. It's next to impossible to avoid religion having at least some influence on one at some stage, so I'm not in the latter. As for atheism being a stance, I don't see it that way. It's simply that God is a notion for which I think there is no credibility. If I have a stance at all, it's all about simply asking anyone who declares their belief to produce evidence. Not witness, hearsay, visions, tradition or the fact that billions of people happen to share the same delusion. Real evidence. Without evidence, God has just got to be a delusion as default until someone comes along with the evidence. If a shrug is a stance, so be it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 12:09 PM

I like the name of this thread. On the other thread and elsewhere, I have stated that before we get too hung up over words, we need to know whether, when debating, you mean atheism as a positive stance or atheism as in "religion is nothing to do with me." Personally, for the record, I am in the latter camp.

As interpretations of the God concept are all man made, yet are portrayed as being other than man made, I am exceedingly comfortable with the notion "God delusion." If you believe any of it literally, as opposed to a convenient moral code or social outlet, of course you are delusional. But don't get hung up about it. I believe in Sheffield Wednesday, but accept we are in the old fizzy pop league now, and could never beat Man Utd over 90 mins, (other than an act of G... oh forget it.)

But a delusional atheist? mmm.. As God doesn't exist, I am not sure that is a term I could accept for anybody?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 12:04 PM

Here's Jacko again! I object to the word "delusion" as loaded, inaccurate, insulting and chosen to pick a fight.

Anyone who would like to see through Jack's risible inconsistencies might just like to refer to the amusing tirade of insults levelled by him on "that other thread." For your amusement I collated them into one post, near the end of the thread. I won't quote it again. Suffice to say that, to put it mildly, he's the last person in the world who should be whingeing about loaded, inaccurate, insulting stuff aimed at picking fights.

Yours less insanely than Wacko Jacko likes to think,

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 11:45 AM

The chipmunk didn't show up this morning. I sure hope he's okay.