BS: All changed, changed utterly.

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 24 May 15 - 02:42 PM

""I know many married couples who openly confess to have no sex. ""
No sex with each other does not necessarily mean no sex of any kind.

Irrelevant for the point that marriage can have other reasons than having sex with one another.

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 15 - 02:34 PM

"My doctor once told me that the leading cause of cancer is age, as is many heart related illness"
There you have it - don't get old -I've decided not to
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 May 15 - 02:19 PM

"A single human male produces enough sperm in two weeks to impregnate every fertile woman on the planet.

well... that just goes to show how selfish and greedy my mrs has been this last 30 years...😜

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Ed T
Date: 24 May 15 - 02:15 PM

A single human male produces enough sperm in two weeks to impregnate every fertile woman on the planet.- so much for the need for sex for reproduction versus pleasure.

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Ed T
Date: 24 May 15 - 01:58 PM

""Whether homosexuality causes HIV is surely immaterial.""

My doctor once told me that the leading cause of cancer is age, as is many heart related illness. :)

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: akenaton
Date: 24 May 15 - 01:53 PM

Nice post Airymouse!   :0)   subtle and amusing.

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 15 - 01:50 PM

Whether homosexuality causes HIV is surely immaterial.
Despite claims by some of those here, homosexuality is not a "chosen lifestyle" - it is a natural state mor many millions of people - it is not "curable" as has been claimed by the church (and be people here - again)
Given that it is natural for some people, H.I.V. is something to be regretted rather than used as a weapon to vilify homosexuals (as is happening here).
Whatever the truth about causes of HIV (still wrapped in mystery - even by the experts), the argument should be how to deal with it rather than to use it as a weapon against people whose sexual inclinations you disapprove of.
The most common sexually transmitted diseases are syphilis and Gonorrhea, both transmitted by heterosexual sex.
I have yet to hear anybody suggest that because of this, heterosexuality should cease, or be a cause of condemnation of a sexual practice.
Personally,I find the gleeful reveling in the claim that HIV is caused by homosexuality sickeningly medieval - almost as much as I find some Churchs claim' that it is "God's punishment for an unnatural act" - I suppose I'll have to put it down to the fact that I don't understand Christianity, I suppose!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Ed T
Date: 24 May 15 - 01:30 PM

Creep is an interesting, and often, appropriate word. I have heard it used a few times by females to refer to annoying and persistent folks seeking their attention (always unsuccessfully so).

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Thompson
Date: 24 May 15 - 01:20 PM

Someone asked "What's wrong with thread creep".

This thread is an example of what's wrong with it. The thread was opened as a joyous discussion of the Irish vote to expand the definition of marriage to include same-sex unions.

Thread creep has resulted in its being pulled off topic and becoming another soapbox for some posters' personal obsessions, which (I think) would be more fruitfully discussed if they opened their own thread and fecked off there to fight about them.

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker 😱
Date: 24 May 15 - 01:17 PM

Ake - goat ????

even when I'm at my daftest and being most facetious
there's always an underlying subtext of concentrated despairing sardonic seriousness...😏

can't help it - the harshness of existence tends to replace happy clappy innocence with an anguished smirk...

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Airymouse
Date: 24 May 15 - 01:16 PM

This response is directed to akenaton. There is a mathematician in topology whose father wrote "historical" novels. As a kid I read one of these novels, having to do with Queen Nefertiti. Perhaps the name suggested to the author his only memorable scene, in which some lucky protagonist got to drink wine from between Nefertiti's breasts.What I remember was wondering if this could be done without leakage. I mention this, because, had it not been for Frank's father, I would probably not have known about you. My understanding, based you understand on the novel, is that in your day there was an attempt to separate "church" and state, which we see from present-day Egypt failed. To your question: I do not think you should be allowed to marry your parent, your child or your horse, although I can believe you may love them all dearly. But equal protection under the law is a fundamental right. To a mathematician, "equal" is much stronger than "equivalent" or "similar"; it means "the same." I thought we'd been through all this in Loving v. Virginia. The decision was unanimous. Loving won.

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Ed T
Date: 24 May 15 - 01:10 PM

Since I posted cobspiracy for conspiracy, maybe I will also submit poopraganda:)

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Ed T
Date: 24 May 15 - 01:08 PM

Oh yes, the media, in all its forms is the most likely group to "gang up" in a cobspiracy to conceal that information.

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Ed T
Date: 24 May 15 - 01:04 PM

""I know many married couples who openly confess to have no sex. ""

No sex with each other does not necessarily mean no sex of any kind.

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: akenaton
Date: 24 May 15 - 01:03 PM

Stop acting the goat PFR.
The statistics are there, but concealed by the media.
Very few people with whom I have conversed were aware of the STD epidemic amongst MSM.
Most believed that it was just another happy clappy lifestyle.

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 May 15 - 12:57 PM

... and since when has traditional hetero marriage 'guaranteed' fidelity..???

Or being straight made you STD proof..???

There were recent statistics [of course I can't be arsed looking for them]
demonstrating the dramatic rise in STDs amongst highly promiscuous straight OAP silver shaggers... !!! 👴 👵

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 24 May 15 - 12:50 PM

I know many married couples who openly confess to have no sex. I guess there are many more who do not admit it, most of them because of the partners' sexual orientations. Depending on the country, the financial and social advantage can be huge, compared with staying singles. The same applies to religious orders, by the way, such as Mother Teresa's.

The current discussion may result in the role of opposite-gender marriage being reassessed as well. When financial benefits are removed, views become further relaxed.

With regards to social cohesion and child education, we must keep in mind that the concept of isolated father-mother-child households is only very recent, and restricted to "Western societies".

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 May 15 - 12:34 PM

It appears to be you who can't read. I said it would promote fidelity, not guarantee it.

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: akenaton
Date: 24 May 15 - 12:22 PM

Steve....are you unable to read? In very many cases homosexual relationships including "marriage" are "open".....a completely different concept to heterosexual marriage which is almost always centred around the family....Open marriages are rare.

If you are having trouble understanding this, I have offered to supply details.
The two primary partners have groups of sexual partners known to the other.....this is regarded as the "new monogamy".
The unfortunate thing is that the group of partners are under no obligation to remain true to the primary partners.
Many of the primary partners stop using protection under these circumstances and health professionals see these "open relationships" as a real danger in the further spread of HIV and other STDs.

By the way Steve I am not at all frightened by a "gay plague", or anything else on gods earth, but these are facts which should be discussed before legislation to change a centuries old institution is redefined.


If the epidemic of STD amongst the homosexual community is not caused by "promiscuity", would you kindly explain just what it IS caused by?

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 May 15 - 12:20 PM

"PFR....you have put your finger exactly on the problem......"

Have I ?????? ... never knew I was that clever....????


errrrrrmmmmmm... what problem ???? 😕


In a more relaxed & friendly world,
suely freedom and equality of choice in legally recognised coupling
would be a rather cool idea... 😎

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 May 15 - 11:55 AM

Even at my tender age it never ceases to amaze me that there are people who hold pairs of notions that directly contradict each other. For example, Mother Teresa and her ilk were opposed to contraception and sex education yet told us that abortion, a major consequence of the ignorance they promoted, was the biggest evil in the world (I hear she's due to be sainted). Akenaton seems frightened half to death of a gay plague that he thinks is the product of gay promiscuity, yet he opposes gay marriage, an institution that would promote faithfulness among partners. Maybe we'll be praying to him soon as well.

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: akenaton
Date: 24 May 15 - 11:53 AM

PFR....you have put your finger exactly on the problem......

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: akenaton
Date: 24 May 15 - 11:51 AM

I wish just for once that members would stop the personal abuse and give one credible reason for homosexual health rates being so massively worse than heterosexuals.

This is the real elephant in the room and should have a large bearing on the right to marry.

In answer to one of the Muskets, I think it is he who is about to be an ex Scot, among the homosexual community, the new "norm" is "open relationships" including "open marriage".....In a recent study 600 homosexual couples were interviewed and a large percentage admitted to being in an open union.......details can be provided on request.

BTW.....I have had no word of any "wife swapping ring" in our community.....I find the idea ridiculous, but if it were based in Inverary, they would require a large piece of additional barter. :0) .

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 May 15 - 11:47 AM

Are we talking exclusively gay same sex marriage ???

Any reason now why 2 old openly straight pals can't get married for stable companionship,
with all the legal benefits of financial, property & pensions security..

it might be just the perfect arrangement for some elder mudcatters...??? 👬 👭

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Thompson
Date: 24 May 15 - 11:06 AM

I cannot see how it can be wrong to vilify bigotry, oppression and militarism.

It's like pouring fertiliser on them.

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 15 - 10:51 AM

We seem to have moved on from what happened in Friday's referendum to why it should not have happened - why am I not surprised?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: akenaton
Date: 24 May 15 - 10:24 AM

Sorry, that was directed towards Airymouse.

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: akenaton
Date: 24 May 15 - 10:22 AM

How would you propose to deal with the legal and societal problems created by the marriage of close family relatives?

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Ed T
Date: 24 May 15 - 10:21 AM

Kinda reminds me of a "sad-sack" whose home-town team just lost a football game- spewing "skewed reasoning" to justify why the "favoured" team were actually better players, versus facing reality - that they just lost.

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 15 - 10:19 AM

Musket, it was you and Guest who raised the issue of disease in this thread.
Tell us why you did that.

If you discount the black-African demographic who were infected abroad, most people in UK living with HIV are MSM, and most new diagnoses are also MSM.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/401662/2014_PHE_HIV_annual_report_draft_Final_07-01-2015.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: akenaton
Date: 24 May 15 - 10:17 AM

Airymouse, do you really believe that marriage should be available for anyone who wants it regardless of the circumstances?

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Airymouse
Date: 24 May 15 - 10:10 AM

I of course would have voted "Yes." but there are two important issues that seem to be lost in the shuffle;
1) Jefferson's idea of separation of church and state is fundamentally sound.
2) Freedom should not be subject to a vote; it is a matter of law. I admit we have seen 5 justices sworn to uphold the constitution fail to do it in Bush v. Gore, but to me the idea of voting on the issue of marriage equality is like voting on whether or not 5=5.

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: akenaton
Date: 24 May 15 - 10:07 AM

Homosexuals and Heterosexuals are defined by their sexual preference, without that there would be no difference at all.

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: akenaton
Date: 24 May 15 - 10:01 AM

These figures have a bearing on whether or not homosexual "marriage" should be legalised.

Other sectors of society are presently prohibited from marriage on supposed health grounds, even if there is no chance of conception.

Unfortunately for them, they do not have a voluble pressure group working in their interests and in my view against the interests of wider society.

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Musket
Date: 24 May 15 - 09:56 AM

See? More distorted crap. All to smear gay marriage, even though sex isn't part of this discussion.

The Public Health England reports on sexual health, to include the rest of The UK note that more gay men at risk come forward for testing than any other risk group and the raw figures cannot therefore be used to villify people for lifestyle. The figures also note that despite that, more Heterosexual people are living with HIV. The figures and commentary go on to note that the risk is most in those of sub Saraha origin whilst the proactive gay issues charities are most vocal therefore a distorted public view can easily be ascertained.

Being a bit sick aren't you Keith? Can't you even celebrate that opinions on the rights of others died with the twentieth century and bigotry is to be shunned?

I expect it from Akenaton. His arse fixation is well known to Mudcat. You however jump from celebrating till your friend turns out and then feeling safe, resort to your true self.

I'm sure God loves you though.

Musket noted that those who bring sex into it must sit in church at weddings daydreaming of the happy couple having sex. Quite...

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 15 - 09:39 AM

I did not raise the issue.
I merely replied to a point put to me by name by Musket and by Guest 24 May 15 - 05:09 AM .

I replied with a single sentence from the latest report with a link to the same.

What did I do wrong?
Why not criticise those who raised the issue?

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 May 15 - 09:33 AM

Disgraceful behaviour from both Keith and Akenaton.

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Ed T
Date: 24 May 15 - 09:26 AM

Some folks look for any door to open to repeat a thinly-disguised anti-gay stance, through HIV. Give us all a break:)

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: akenaton
Date: 24 May 15 - 09:18 AM

To the uninformed or devious guest.
From PHE.........."Gay, bisexual and other MSM
•HIV still disproportionally affects gay, bisexual and other men who have sex with men. The number of MSM diagnoses was a record high (3250/6000). This approximates to an adult prevalence of 59 per 1,000. In London, an estimated 1 in 8 MSM are HIV positive compared to 1 in 26 outside London"

This means that in 2013 the latest figures available state that the total of new HIV infections was 6000....of this total, 3250 we amongst MSM.

The total of new infections amongst males was 4840....of this total 3250 were MSM.

Homosexuals make up 1.5% of the adult population of the UK, accrording to the Office of National Statistics.

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 15 - 08:34 AM

Guest,
"In the UK, the HIV epidemic is largely concentrated among gay, bisexual men and other men who have sex with men (referred to "MSM") and black-African heterosexual men and women."

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/401662/2014_PHE_HIV_annual_report_draft_Final_07-01-2015.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Ed T
Date: 24 May 15 - 08:04 AM

2005, ten years ago , seemed to be notable for gay issues in many world locations.


2005 - gay rights news 

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Ed T
Date: 24 May 15 - 07:58 AM

Speaking of ten years ago, in Ireland, from wikki:

28 July 2005 – the Provisional Irish Republican Army ended its armed campaign and ordered all its units to dump arms. The organisation also ordered its members not to engage in any other activities of any kind.

10 years ago in Ireland 

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 15 - 07:50 AM

I have been rebuked for speaking of the traditional concept of marriage.
After thousands of years, it has only been open to gay folk for how many, and even now in how many places?

It is extraordinary how quickly people's views have changed.
Ten years ago, that referendum would have been a landslide against, but you can not expect everyone to accept such a change on the same day.

Guest,
Keith. The statistics on sexual health confirm that more Heterosexual people live with HIV than gay men.
I know.
So what?
They also, through A&E and colorectal referrals confirm that more women receive anal sex than men.
Not a surprise.
So what?

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 15 - 07:48 AM

"Jim is wrong. "
Not really Muskie - Ireland (the Irish people) voted in a referendum to bring about changes on Gay marriage - that has yet to happen elsewhere.
Incidentally, there were enough politicians and authoritative figures here who spoke out in favour of the amendment (including former Presidents of Ireland) to make it more than a government ploy (not that I wouldn't put it past them).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 15 - 07:40 AM

"there may, for all I know, be more anti-British bigotry in Ireland than there is anti-Irish bigotry in Britain"
THere in't - a large number of Irish people we have met here have worked in Britain, are grateful for having the opportunity to have been able to have done so and have in general, got on well with British people
Any major anti-British sentiment is directed against politicians and certain parts of the establishment
Having been born in Britain, and having lived most of my life there, the opposite was not the case with many British people I know/knew
Anti-Irish sentiment is both historical and current (though in latter times much of this is directly related to 'the troubles').
As far as general racism is concerned, Britain is streets ahead on that particular subject, at least, in the three major cities I lived in, the only exception being towards Travellers, where they are running almost neck-and-neck, with Ireland just in front.
There are signs of growing racism in Ireland, mainly due to politicians making excuses for their own shortcomings by blaming immigrants, but that has yet to filter down to any significant degree, to ordinary people, who remain welcoming and friendly to all.
I have always been open in my opinion that Britain is a very racist place, little has happened recently to change that opinion.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Musket
Date: 24 May 15 - 07:28 AM

Jim is wrong. The UK, other than the bit attached to his adopted home that still considered being gay a crime till recently, voted in all three countries via parliament and assembly to enact gay marriage.

Whilst really happy that Ireland voted as it did, the fact that it was a referendum rather than merely enacting equality as per equality legislation isn't something to be proud of actually. The Irish government, by using referendum, gave legitimacy to homophobia by making it a matter of conscience.

I'd heed the bit about glass houses and stones if I were you Jim.

The figures by opinion polls in The UK consistently showed in the run up to the parliamentary debate, that the majority of people didn't think as Akenaton wishes they did.

For England, Scotland and Wales, equality was the natural course, and it took a right wing Tory Prime Minister to enact what Akenaton calls a liberal political plot.,😆😆😆

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 May 15 - 06:59 AM

I would estimate that at least 50% of my countrymen and women would oppose Homosexual "marriage" in a referendum
You're probably right - welcome back to the twentieth century.
For all the smugness, the U.K. remains the place with major racist and homophobic issues in these Islands

The result in Britain would be almost exactly the same. On these figures, a few percent more support for the YES side.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11626678/Surge-in-support-for-gay-marriage.html

On the other hand there may, for all I know, be more anti-British bigotry in Ireland than there is anti-Irish bigotry in Britain. At least, you're doing your bit to make that the case.

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Musket
Date: 24 May 15 - 06:45 AM

By the way Akenaton.. What has open marriage got to do with gay marriage? What is the connection? Why is the word "relationships" a reason to oppose a marriage?

Look, I know that around here in Inverary they laugh about the wife swapping ring that was notorious in Strachur, but don't judge gay marriages by the same token eh?

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Musket
Date: 24 May 15 - 06:38 AM

My objections to your marriage would be more justifiable Akenaton. After all, you either can or have passed your genes on. Clapton help them..

Married by Elvis? Wow, lucky buggers.. We had a po faced Dutch registrar who could but wouldn't say anything to me in English till Kris's Dad asked her to do so.

The Owls supporting deluded Musket reminds us that you can also get married in the McDonalds outside Scunthorpe Utd's ground. We had a hotel, that Musket had a hotel, but I was at a wedding at a football stadium itself last year for one of our medical students.

Those who speak of what they call "traditional" marriage.. As churches in The UK are closing at a rate that is spectacularly encouraging, does that mean they will refuse to get married once their churches are bingo halls and flats?

Of course, The Rt Rev Ronald McDonald will welcome them to his moulded plastic pews...

Hey Keith? How long after Wilberforce was it acceptable to think of blacks as slaves? How long after the suffragettes was it socially ok to see women as second class citizens? (Other than churches of course...)

How long is it legitimate to tell me I shouldn't be married eh?

Haven't you a church to go to today, to pray for tolerance, understanding and brotherly love?

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 15 - 06:31 AM

"I would estimate that at least 50% of my countrymen and women would oppose Homosexual "marriage" in a referendum"
You're probably right - welcome back to the twentieth century.
For all the smugness, the U.K. remains the place with major racist and homophobic issues in these Islands
Ireland has just said "Yes"
Jim Carroll