Folklore: 'Noodling'

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: Marje
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 03:50 PM

Melissa, as well as noting the definitions given in various posts, it's as well to try to work out which side of the Atlantic the posters are on. There are often different usages and practices in the UK and in the USA, and it regularly leads to confusion in htese discussions - well, at least until people work out what's going on, after which they can begin to understand each others' cultures a bit better.
Sometimes I think we need a "translation" section on Mudcat. Anyway, for what it's worth, what you call a "song circle" in the US is a "singaround" in the UK (approximately). "Jam session" is not term generally used in folk music in the UK. It's possibly more common in in the US (?), being associated more with bluegrass and jazz, and with guitarists generally.
When we have a "session" in the UK, it's usually mostly instrumental music with everyone joining in as they please (although some have the occasional song) and it's generally in a pub. It seems from some of the preceding posts that in the US, a session may well be more structured and performance-based, with people taking turns rather than joining in with most of the music.
Oh, and I live in England!

Marje

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: My guru always said
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 03:23 PM

This discussion about sessions / jam sessions / song sessions etc. has brought to mind that there are several different types of musicians too. It's becoming clear to me that there are some musicians who are happy to play instruments in a session together with other musicians. There are others who prefer to accompany themselves or someone they have practised with, and there are also singer/songwriters, though perhaps they aren't really a separate species *grin*

Is this difference purely down to experience / confidence / or preference between songs and tunes?

And who should be called a 'musician'? One who plays tunes in preference to songs? Or one who plays an instrument regardless of what they play?

And to get back to the original subject, which category of musician is most likely to 'noodle' between songs / tunes?

I'll get my coat.....

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: mattkeen
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 09:30 AM

What leeneia said: doodling with a musical instrument

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 09:23 AM

Noodling is that thing that when you do it, you think it's a great way to help everyone along and when someone else does it, you want to murder them. ;~)

~S~

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: Rowan
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 02:30 AM

Which, for those in different hemispheres, became the theme tune for a TV sitcom "Jam and Jerusalem" and starred quite a lineup of heavyweight comic actors.

It seems, Melissa, that my prediction of quite a few definitions has been correct. In Oz, the "jam" session was traditionally associated (in my youth) with jazz and thus improvisation but the term wasn't strictly restricted to jazz. Without the qualifier, "Session" could be applied to informal group singing events, although such event were usually described as "singing sessions" if instrumental accompaniment was to be accidental/incidental/avoided/minor in scope. When dance tunes or other instrumental music was to be "the go" it was usually a "session" without qualifiers and this applied to events where songs appeared among the tunes.

As someone said above, you could arrive and observe or participate in the same way as those around you until you worked out whether there was any particular structure, category or leadership involved and how to measure your engagement further.

Singing sessions were (usually) just called that, no matter what structure/leadership/etc they might (or might not) have had. Small and regular events might have a routine, such as the term singaround seems to imply in the northern hemisphere but they didn't seem to attract that particular name when I attended them. Even at larger events (such as the National, every Easter in Canberra) many older folkies would know many people in the crowd and know their attributes in groups (leading to invitation for some and downpedalling for others, depending on one's state of mind at the time) but newcomers would always be invited to have a go, no matter what type or size of event.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: ADD: The Village Green Preservation Society(Kinks)
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 08:04 PM

And the words (sorry this is unforgiveable thread drift!)Note the jam!

THE VILLAGE GREEN PRESERVATION SOCIETY
Ray Davies (The Kinks)

We are the Village Green Preservation Society
God save Donald Duck, Vaudeville and Variety
We are the Desperate Dan Appreciation Society
God save strawberry jam and all the different varieties.

Preserving the old ways from being abused
Protecting the new ways for me and for you
What more can we do?

We are the Draught Beer Preservation Society
God save Mrs. Mopp and good Old Mother Riley.

We are the Custard Pie Appreciation Consortium
God save the George Cross and all those who were awarded them.

We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular
Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

We are the Office Block Persecution Affinity
God save little shops, china cups and virginity.

We are the Skyscraper condemnation Affiliate
God save Tudor houses, antique tables and billiards.

Preserving the old ways from being abused
Protecting the new ways for me and for you
What more can we do
God save the Village Green

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 07:54 PM

My kids (24 and 31) think it's hilarious when I say I'm going for a session: obviously means something (probably a wee bit sexual) to them!
There is, of course, the verb "to jam" as in jam or jamming session. I'd tend to go with Waddon Pete's definition, tho' we don't usually use the term jam session here, but we do have a lot where everyone joins in. I did go to one where there was a strong bluegrass element, and it seemed that you suddenly got shouted at to take the tune for a while, then somebody else would take it on (having been shouted at too!)And I suppose there is the analogy with actually making jam: you put it all in a big pot and keep stirring it now and then! And since Kate Rusby has been mentioned and some may not have got the inference:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRK6U5vIHCs

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: Bert
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 12:02 AM

As GUEST, meself says, A jam session suggests improvisation. A session is where folks get together to sing and play.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 11:41 PM

Singaround: a sort of 'song circle', people take turns singing solo, or leading group songs

singsong: an older term, in my experience, which I haven't heard in years - but it always meant a bunch of people gathering around the ol' piano to sing all the songs they and/or the pianist could collectively remember - with the help of songbooks and songsheets

jam session: originally jazz or blues gatherings, with all kinds of improvisation; now can mean almost anything

session: usually a gathering of primarily instrumentalists playing heaps of Irish music - doesn't have to be Irish, of course - remember that great album "Super Session" with ... whatssizname there, and the other guy, and that really great other guy?

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: Melissa
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 08:20 PM

Thanks!

What's a singaround..or singsong?

What we have here is Jam Sessions, which we generally refer to as Music as in "Music Tuesday..at xx's house" or "are you going to Music at the church this week?"

I noodle in accordance with my definition.
In my vocabulary, it's not a dirty word..

I appreciate the Jam vs Session description. I doubt I'll use the words any differently myself, but it's nice to have a better grasp of what folks here are talking about..
Thank you all.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: Sorcha
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 05:56 PM

Where I've lived, they are interchangable, and usually free for alls, but some do go round the 'circle' to take turns choosing the song/tune.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 05:35 PM

"Session" seems to carry different meanings to different people, and different places. To me, a session is just an informal gathering to make music - I haven't heard the term "jam session" for years. But every session is different - some are free-for-alls, where anyone can start up a tune, and everyone is expected to join in, while others are strictly organised. Some seem to be for the ego of the person running them. Some are for the musicians' own enjoyment, while others are informal performances before an audience. Some are all tunes, some all songs, and some a mixture. Some a strictly Irish, or English, or whatever, and others will welcome a good tune from anywhere. Whenever you visit a new session you have to find out how it operates, the trick being that the "rules" are seldom stated.

"Noodling" is not a term I'd come across until recently, on here. But the practice is of course widespread.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 04:38 PM

I am a noodler!
Thing is its what I do at home when i am trying to think up a tune for a song I am writing.
I am also guilty of doing it when practicing with others and they stop playing to discuss stuff that I am not party to.
"Did you see what X was wearing last night? Do you think she knew those other buttons were undone?" etc.
Have done it in those singarounds were you all take a turn and there is always a gap in the proceedings at some point 'cos someone went to the bog or is busy talking or went to get their instrument out of the car.
(I think that is one upmanship between the w*****s who want to to make their five mins last for twenty each time it is their go)
Guilty as charged re noodling in the contexts as described by me

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 12:59 PM

I `ad that Kate Rusby in my cab the uvver day and she `ad a bag of strawberries with `er.
I said "Where to then?"
She said " Take me to the trains, I`m orf to a jam session in York"
I said "They got something going on in a folk club up there then?"
She said "Nah, Womens Institute!!"

What am Ilike?

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 12:44 PM

"Can someone (nicely, please) tell me the difference between "Sessions" and "Jam Sessions"

In my part of the world, Melissa, (I can't speak for other places), a Jam Session is when everyone joins in together and plays their instruments etc. at the same time.

A Session is a gathering of singers and musicians who take it in turns to share a song or a tune with the rest of the group. Choruses are sung by all and some wonderful harmonies usually result. Joining in with other instruments is generally by the request of the performer of the song or the tune.

Hope that helps.


Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: GUEST,Peking Palace
Date: 05 Apr 08 - 02:27 PM

"Noodling" is practise we have perfected here in "Peking Palace", Lee Green. When not enough rice in kitchen we get Wai Li to chop up pasta in velly small pieces and tell customer "Ah, Special Rice!"

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: vectis
Date: 05 Apr 08 - 01:57 PM

The worst is when you have a very slightly off key fiddler noodling along to and unaccompanied song. Grrrrrrrrr!

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: Hrothgar
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 11:56 PM

And here's me thinking that "noodling" is the practice of searching mullock heaps for overlooked minerals, opal in particular.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: Sorcha
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 09:48 PM

So, no self confessed Noodlers have checked in to explain, justify, educate the rest of us? Aw, come on, Noodlers, tell all.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 05:54 PM

What Dave's Wife said. Also called "tickling fish" and it's illegal is a lot of places. Best described as "gaining a fish's confidence and then violating it."

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: Marje
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 01:49 PM

I've only ever heard "noodling" used in the former sense - playing chords or phrases in a vague, disjointed way. Guitarists are the worst offenders, in my experience. It irritates me when it happens at sessions, because it sounds at first as if the player is about to start a tune, then it gradually becomes clear that they don't have a particular tune in mind, and all they're doing is occupying the space so no one else can get started on another tune.

Sometimes the player is just trying to go over some phrase from the tune that's just gone, trying to get it under their fingers, or checking their tuning, which is fair enough if it's kept to a short time, but if it goes on too long it just prevents other players from getting on with the next tune.

Marje

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: kendall
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 11:26 AM

The key should ALWAYS be chosen by the singer.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: GUEST,highlandman
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 10:31 AM

More or less the first definition, except I would use it more broadly to describe any aimless and possibly unconscious tinkering with the instrument. Perfectly fine when at home or in practice... sort of an aural brainstorming thing. Not so fine in public, whether at a session or between songs of a stage set (especially while the front man is setting up the next song).
I have found an interesting use for noodling, as it happens. Those of us who have on occasion been forced to accompany the random walk-up singer at his or her favorite piece have experienced the musical equivalent of an Alphonse-and-Gaston routine while trying to arrive at a key, or worse yet having the singer launch off in some key that falls into the cracks in the keyboard. This is easily cured by noodling in the key YOU want to play in while the person is gearing up to sing, or explaining the song, or whatever thing they do... then they invariably (if they have any ear at all) settle into the key your apparently aimless noodling has primed them for.
-Glenn

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: Mo the caller
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 10:11 AM

I don't think there is necessarily anything 'illicit' about the UK usage of 'canoodling', necking about sums it up.

A little noodle at a tune may be needed to put it back into your head / fingers, after all the other tunes. I don't know about 'fair', I find Jump-In sessions less intimidating than Round the Room, as long as people are playing fair (and you get people who hog round the room sessions too, if they've spent some time at the bar and the MC is not prepared to be rude to them)

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: kendall
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 08:53 AM

Canoodlin'
An ancient term
used to describe a dalliance of the illicit kind, usually in the back seat or the hay mow. (From Maine Lingo, by John Gould)

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: Mooh
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 06:40 AM

The former definition.

Used to attend a session where there were competing noodlers, none of which were using the songs/tunes as anything more than a backing track for their own egos. Trouble is, those personalities don't recognize themselves even when they hear themselves recorded. Singers find it distracting and can be throuwn off their parts easily by it. It isn't fair.

Etiquette, what etiquette?

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: Deckman
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 06:36 AM

For a few years we had a goof ball that kept inviting himself to a frequant hoot in Seattle. He would always play his loud guitar along with whoever was singing a song. I tried clueing him politly but that didn't work. Then once at another hoot, I started singing an unaccompanied song, and sure enough, he started playing his guitar. I kept on singing, stood up and walked across the room and gently took his guitar from him and carried it back to my chair. While I was still singing, I carefully laid it on ther floor by my feet, string side down. I didn't miss a beat. That brought the loudest applause of the whole evening.

He never showed up again ... I wonder why? Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 06:10 AM

Daveswife, I recently heard that same usage, and thought it was made up for the occasion : ) Thanks!

Actually, I'd heard it used a little like 'necking' (not guitar necks, either!), but don't remember where or why.

Dani

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: GUEST,Sedayne (Astray)
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 04:56 AM

A Jam Session implies a level of improvisation, which would be a complete anathema in the context of a Session and much other Folk Music, though not, of course in Traditional Musics as a whole where the improvisatory craft is part & parcel of the corporeal & empirical experience of the music, as it is in Jazz, Rock and certain areas of Early & Medieval Music where spontaneous creativity is very much the order if the day.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: GUEST,redsnapper
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 03:47 AM

I use the term in the sense Melissa describes.

RS

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: Melissa
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 02:21 AM

Thanks Rowan..I wouldn't have asked about it if I was seeing an overlap between the term "session" as it's used here and what I think of as a "jam session"

If they're the same, there's no reason for me to have asked.
Please revoke my question.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: Rowan
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 02:14 AM

I'd not heard the term used until relatively recently but exposure to the habit described in the first of Richard's definitions was what strengthened my voice (in each of confidence, projection and volume of delivery) early on in my singing. I figured that, if the guitarist hadn't produced something with a recognisable structure after ten minutes' of picking or strumming, it was OK for someone who could produce something that others could join in to 'have a go'.

Melissa:
I suspect there'd be as many definitions of "Sessions" as there are Mudcatters and most would overlap considerably with "Jam Sessions".

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 11:51 PM

I almost agree with the first definition, except it seems to me that it is usually a pair of guitarists who are playing to impress each other with their marvelosity and, of course, to show everyone else in earshot how wonderful they are.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: Melissa
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 11:43 PM

I'm finding out that a lot of the words in my Music Vocabulary are used differently on mudcat than in my local area. Noodling is not considered a punishable offense among my playmates--it's used to describe sitting alone (usually at home) fooling around with an instrument..not playing anything in particular, not creating a new song, just playing.
It is also what a fiddler does when they've got a tune on the tip of their tongue that hasn't quite made it to their fingers yet.

Can someone (nicely, please) tell me the difference between "Sessions" and "Jam Sessions"? I don't particularly want to pull the thread off-track, but this seems like a good chance to ask.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: M.Ted
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 11:24 PM

I think that the purpose of "sessions" should be participation--and to that end, most of the problems that you have would be relieved if you simply gave the "noodlers", and everyone else, parts to play, or sing--

Informal singing has always been a social event, and that is the tradition that is being preserved, or ought to be preserved, anyway.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: Bert
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 11:16 PM

Now we need to Bash the hell out of them Barry.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: Barry Finn
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 10:20 PM

I's agree with Tattie Bogle

Noodlin & noodlers should be discouraged at "jump in" type sessions. It's inappropriate, distasteful, inconsiderate & uncalled for & shows an unawareness on behalf of the noodler or worst if done on purpose.
There are some who start before a song is finished & they're the worst violaters. As the song ends you see them picking up their instruments to get ready so they're ready to fire the second the song or tune ends, they didn't even show the respect to listen to the whole song, like it or not, that's disrespectful. They don't wait to see if others less confident or those with less nerve have been hanging on, waiting & trying to find the right moment to jump in. They're usually the ones that have sung twice as much as the rest, they're the same ones that won't wait for the privious singer to bathe in their 3 seconds of applause & they're again the same ones, usually that won't allow the afterglow of a song done very well to settle. They kill any type of follow up, like "is that your song", "did you write that", where'd you get it from", "Shit, I loved that, fuckin great". That sort of interaction is what helps to give a session it's on special character. Absent minded noodlers aren't hard to take but they distract & you some times just can't tell where they're going, a gentle word is usually all it takes. "Forgive 'em Lord". The other buggers, they're usually transparent when they're doing it on purpose & they need a strong hand to subdue them, they're a pain in the arse to any session leader as well as a pain to the rest of the group.

We've already hashed the hell out of accompanying unaccompanied singers.

Barry

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 10:37 AM

♠♠♠ What Jeri said ♠♠♠

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 10:22 AM

The worst experience I've had with the second meaning given was at an annual Paltalk-frequenters gathering here in Indiana.   There had been a lot of jamming going on, and that's fine.

But I'm a solo banjo-or-guitar singing act. When it came my turn for an approximate twenty-minute turn, I was halfway into my second song, when I heard behind me a rattle-bang-bung-crash. It was a drummer, very drunk, "joining in" on my sad, contemplative song. I stopped the song, turned around, gave a dirty look, and said, "Stop! Quit!"

He quit, and I resumed. Mood for the interrupted song was spoiled, of course, so I went on to something else.

About one song later, he began again, and, as before, with little or no relevance to the song I was doing. "What the hell do you think you're doing? Did I ask for you to play? Quit it! Stop! Halt!"

He quit. I have no doubt he might have resumed later, had not one of the organizers (I learned later) come up to him and physically drawn him away, explaining that I was a solo act.

In this case, changing my key or my rhythm would have had no effect whatever on this stupid drunk.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 07:39 AM

I took it also to mean that thing that happens (fiddlers the worst offenders, guitarists second) when they kind of mess around and you're not sure if they're really going to start/or are playing a proper tune, which puts the less confident sessioners off from jumping in with anything themselves. That's in the "jump in" type of session, doesn't apply so much to those where they (perhaps more fairly) go round the room in turn.
And in a mixed song and tune session it can mean that the tunesters drive the singers away, so it may be a deliberate ploy.
One way to switch a noodler off is to do something really loud and different (whether key or style)from what they were doing, or for everyone to stop and look at them and say "What was that tune then?" which will usually embarrass all but the most thick-skinned.I have also seen someone reach out and put their hands over a noodling guitarist's strings while someone was singing and saying firmly "this song is unaccompanied"

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: Ernest
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 07:25 AM

ist hier überflüssig, Giok.

Pasta ...sorry: Basta.

;0)
Ernest

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 06:56 AM

Nudelsuppe?

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: Ernest
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 06:53 AM

I always thought that "noodling around the melody without ever hitting it" is a nice description of Jazz....

Getting my coat...
Ernest

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: My guru always said
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 05:06 AM

How interesting! Hands up, I confess - it was me that suggested it *grin*. Perhaps there's just another word for it that I don't know, and I wouldn't be surprised at that as I only 'found' this world of song and music about 10 years ago.

Personally I feel that although it definitely applies to the former, I also think that it can apply to the latter.

As a mostly unaccompanied singer, and before I started to gain confidence, I was surprised at how many musicians tended to (almost unconsiously) pick away at the threads of the tune being sung. I guess now, being more experienced, I should take it as a compliment (and I do), but I do feel sympathetic towards less experienced singers (or musicians) who may be 'put off' by the accompaniment, however tactfully it is made.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: Cats
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 04:48 AM

As far back as we can remember it has always been the first one. In fact years ago in the Swan in Sidmouth we had the 'Noodling Award' for the most aimless piece.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: Mo the caller
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 04:32 AM

Could it also refer to a callers mouth-music during a walk-through, to give the dancers an idea how much music they will have for a given move.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 04:26 AM

Definition #1 but I've a sneaky feeling I learned the term from Jeri a few years ago and hadn't actually heard the term used in the (UK) sessions I went to - although the practice of "noodling" of course was familiar.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 04:21 AM

and here I thought it meant catching catfish with your bare hands! Actually, in some parts it DOES mean catching catfish with your bare hands.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: Little Robyn
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 04:12 AM

"players who sought to accompany otherwise unaccompanied singers"
Not noodling. Ignorance!
One trick, if that happens, is to sharpen or flatten your key so they can't follow.
Another is to kick them in the shins.
Sorry, but there are some songs that lose their magic if someone is bashing a guitar in the background.
Robyn

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Noodling'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 04:01 AM

Ask Leadfingers!

G