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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf - round two From: Big Mick Date: 22 Mar 08 - 10:58 AM Blast these hidebound old men who are more concerned with their positions, their power, and their view as protectors of the purity. I have said many times that the one tradition in Irish music that is constant is that it will evolve by generations, while retaining the essence of its self. But if one leaves the actual music for a moment and moves to the organization, this becomes a travesty. As I understand it, you had a branch that was vibrant, and that its members got off their duffs and built this marvelous center, raised money for instruments, and had members that cut across age and class. WHAT MORE COULD ONE WANT FROM A BRANCH????????? I am uninformed and far away, but my take is that these folks had something going that the HQ felt would threaten their primacy. This RAT fella seems to have felt threatened by it as well. At a time when we are all trying to pass on to the next generation our love of these traditions and music, this can only be seen as a victory of power mad old men over what is best for the community. To whomever perpetrated this I can only say, Clúid ar do phoil , Mick |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf - round two From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 22 Mar 08 - 10:40 AM Yep - in an old farmhouse out in east Cork, still harping away (and harping on, some may say...) |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf - round two From: GUEST,Learaí na Láibe Date: 22 Mar 08 - 08:44 AM The relative silence of the net on this controversy is intriguing. Think Comhaltas needs an internal revolution. Hi Bonnie, sorry for going off topic but how's the oul harping going? Are you still in Hibernia? Slán Learaí na Láibe |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf - round two From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 22 Mar 08 - 05:45 AM There hasn't been! We ought not to be THIRD in the Google listings. Where IS everybody? I don't know if you're on the HEAnet Irish trad mailing group, but there have been exactly two posts about this. Both intelligently written, both expressing shock and concern, but two....?? I've PM'd Joe Offer to ask for a thread-combination, but it's two in the morning where he is, so he probably won't see it for a few hours. (Sleep, harrrumph, honestly, the excuses some people come up with... ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Comhaltas Interruptus From: Folkiedave Date: 22 Mar 08 - 05:37 AM Jim, if there is anything we can do in the form of letter writing both of support to those affected and of protest to those in charge of this farce let us know. Dave |
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Subject: RE: Comhaltas Interruptus From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Mar 08 - 04:33 AM Hello Maggie, Nice to hear from you again. Gulliver, Don't hold your breath for a response from Head Office - him indoors tends to be a law unto himself, and very much relies on branches who accept decisions without question. Jim Would rather think that any action should be guided by the Clontarf Branch first. Will pass on any information I get, though there is another thread going on this (Battle of Clontarf),; I started this one because I thought the matter wasn't getting the attention it deserved. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf - round two From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Mar 08 - 04:22 AM Bonnie, Agree entirely with combining threads - sorry for the mix-up; thought there wasn't enough response. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Comhaltas Interruptus From: Gulliver Date: 22 Mar 08 - 12:40 AM I'd really like to hear what Comhaltas HQ have to say on this--they surely can't keep quiet much longer. There was nothing in today's Times (at least, that I could find). My own acquaintances who are members are all on the south side of the city, so not directly involved. |
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Subject: RE: Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST,Jim Martin Date: 21 Mar 08 - 11:23 PM Jim, do you think it would help if we could get an on-line petition going? |
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Subject: RE: Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST,guest maggie boyle Date: 21 Mar 08 - 08:55 PM Hello Jim... You will of course know that this surprises me not one bit. For other mudcatters I will state that I, along with most of my family, was amongst the hundred or so members who were so unceremoniously and wrongly ejected by the comhaltas executive in 1979 - for insisting on operating within the constitutional rules. A certain weasel of a man is, I fear, so well-ensconced in the corridors of power that any attempt to gainsay him is probably futile. This recent case is even more harmful than previous misdemeanors, and I am very sorry indeed for all the members at the receiving end. They face the demolition of their community, despite their voluntary efforts for over 40 years. It's shameful. I very much doubt that messages from England (or anywhere) will help their case, but do please let me know if you think I might be wrong about that. Best Wishes to you and Pat. Maggie |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf - round two From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 21 Mar 08 - 01:31 PM If you Google "Comhaltas" and "Clontarf" - as people are likely to do - this Mudcat thread comes up third in the line of hits (fifth on Irish Google) so it's bound to attract some attention. [I just Freudianly typed CONhaltas above...] The web link we have both quoted from is further down, not even sure where, so this at least makes it more prominent. I wonder if the Mudcat clones would please combine our two threads, deleting one of the duplicated paste-ins? Google is perhaps a reason to keep this thread because it brings the two search terms together sooner on the page and seems to get a higher listing; or maybe we could ask them to re-title this thread "Comhaltas ousts Clontarf" or something which makes it even clearer! Assorted parties are bound to be net-surfing about this (including Them, no doubt). What do you think, Jim? |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf - round two From: Jim Carroll Date: 21 Mar 08 - 12:02 PM Sorry Bonnie, Didn't see this and posted in on another thread (see Comhaltas Interruptus) Outraged from Miltown Malbay (Jim Carroll) |
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Subject: Comhaltas Interruptus From: Jim Carroll Date: 21 Mar 08 - 11:52 AM I am putting this up under another heading, as it seems largely to have escaped the attention of those interested in traditional Irish music, democracy, or simply fair play For the uninitiated, Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann is the leading, most influential and wealthiest organisation representing Irish (or any other Traditional) music throughout the world. It has a reported 400 + branches and is run by an annually elected body which is presided over by an appointed director general, Labhras (pro. Lowros) Ó Murchú (Larry Murphy). In spite of its apparently democratic structure, in reality Ó Murchú runs the organisation pretty much like a private company, taking all major decisions on its behalf. He is also a State Senator, which gives him access to Government decisions on cultural matters (and the state purse in relation to grants). In general, the branches do magnificent work, organising local session and running classes (though IMO this latter is somewhat spoiled by the fact that the pupils are scholled to be entered into competitions). In 1979, the West London Branch of CCE ran foul of the leadership by refusing to participate in a political fundraising event (on the basis that the branch was made up of members of all religious, political and national affiliations). The branch was subsequently expelled. More recently the Clontarf Brach in Dublin raised over €11.000,000 to build what is claimed to be the worlds most expensive traditional music centre. I heard a little of the events following this on the radio last week, but received this, this morning. "The Dissolution of Cluain Tarbh CCE - a Guide For The Perplexed. The Cluain Tarbh (Clontarf) branch of Comhaltas is one of the biggest and most significant branches of Comhaltas in the world with over 400 members. For the past 15 years Cluain Tarbh has been the prime mover in the development of CLASAC - the magnificent new Centre for the Traditional Arts on Dublin's Northside. The branch ran a myriad of fund raising events, secured the site from Dublin City Council and successfully negotiated significant public funding for the centre. The Branch worked in partnership with Comhaltas HQ both on the development of the 2004 Comhaltas Development Plan in which CLASAC was a flagship project. However, in recent months, there has been a determined effort by Comhaltas HQ to take over the Centre and to exclude the Branch. False accusations have been made against the branch and every avenue to answer these has been closed off. The Branch was suspended from Comhaltas by the Dublin Co Board acting on instructions from the HQ. The manner of the suspension was contrary to the Comhaltas constitution. There was no right of appeal, no due process and no natural justice. A request to be heard distributed to delegates to the Co Board is here. Comhaltas issued a directive to the branch to transfer a VAT refund relating specifically to Clasac to the HQ account. The branch sought expert advice on this matter. The advice received was that such a transfer would be illegal and would put individual branch members at risk of substantial sanctions from Revenue. The branch unwilling to break the law and to expose individual members to potentially large liabilities returned the refund to Revenue. Revenue have confirmed the validity of the branch action. Comhaltas HQ dissolved the branch because it did not comply with a directive which would have broken the law of the land. Dissolution means that the assets built up by the current members can be seized by Comhaltas HQ. This means that the current members lose the money that they paid for classes, the musical instruments that they bought for use in the branch instrument loan scheme and all other assets. Absurdly, but consistent with the contempt shown to the branch up to now, Comhaltas did not write to the branch to confirm the dissolution but instead wrote to RTE Radio personality Joe Duffy who was able to inform branch members on his show of 20th March that the branch had been dissolved six days earlier. There has been an attempt to 'reconstitute' the branch with an unelected and unrepresentative executive committee acting in concert with Comhaltas HQ. A meeting of the branch on 19th March unanimously rejected this attempt to undermine the branch, expressed confidence in the current executive and asked it to continue running the branch activities. The resolution which emerged from the meeting is available here." Will happily pass on any references or further information to anybody interested. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf - round two From: redsnapper Date: 21 Mar 08 - 07:14 AM Following this with interest as I was also a member of West London Comhaltas in the 70s and remember Senator ó Murchú. RS |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf - round two From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 21 Mar 08 - 06:10 AM Yes, they've been very underhand about the whole thing. There will be rules in place concerning members calling an Extraordinary General Meeting to challenge this action (which the branch only learned of for the first time when they heard it on the radio) - but if there IS no branch, they can't. And Murph the Lab Rat is a political animal with colleagues in high places. http://electionsireland.org/candidate.cfm?ID=4131 In case that link goes bye-bye (see boldface passages in particular): • The Cluain Tarbh (Clontarf) branch of Comhaltas is one of the biggest and most significant branches of Comhaltas in the world with over 400 members. • For the past 15 years Cluain Tarbh has been the prime mover in the development of CLASAC - the magnificent new Centre for the Traditional Arts on Dublin's Northside. • The branch ran a myriad of fund raising events, secured the site from Dublin City Council and successfully negotiated significant public funding for the centre. • The Branch worked in partnership with Comhaltas HQ both on the development of the 2004 Comhaltas Development Plan in which CLASAC was a flagship project. • However, in recent months, there has been a determined effort by Comhaltas HQ to take over the Centre and to exclude the Branch. • False accusations have been made against the branch and every avenue to answer these has been closed off. • The Branch was suspended from Comhaltas by the Dublin Co Board acting on instructions from the HQ. The manner of the suspension was contrary to the Comhaltas constitution. There was no right of appeal, no due process and no natural justice. A request to be heard distributed to delegates to the Co Board is here. • Comhaltas issued a directive to the branch to transfer a VAT refund relating specifically to Clasac to the HQ account. • The branch sought expert advice on this matter. The advice received was that such a transfer would be illegal and would put individual branch members at risk of substantial sanctions from Revenue. • The branch unwilling to break the law and to expose indivdual members to potentially large liabilities returned the refund to Revenue. Revenue have confirmed the validity of the branch action. • Comhaltas HQ dissolved the branch because it did not comply with a directive which would have broken the law of the land. • Dissolution means that the assets built up by the current members can be seized by Comhaltas HQ. This means that the current members lose the money that they paid for classes, the musical instruments that they bought for use in the branch instrument loan scheme and all other assets. • Absurdly, but consistent with the comtempt shown to the branch up to now, Comhaltas did not write to the branch to confirm the dissolution but instead wrote to RTE Radio personality Joe Duffy who was able to inform branch members on his show of 20th March that the branch had been dissolved six days earlier. • There has been an attempt to 'reconstitute' the branch with an unelected and unrepresentative exceutive committee acting in concert with Comhaltas HQ. • A meeting of the branch on 19th March unanimously rejected this attempt to undermine the branch, expressed confidence in the current executive and asked it to continue running the branch activities. • The resolution which emerged from the meeting is available here [downloadable Word document]. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf - round two From: GUEST,Jim Martin Date: 20 Mar 08 - 10:01 PM There was much talk on the Joe Duffy Show (RTE Radio1) this afternoon, including interviews with members, apparently the Clontarf branch hadn't received the formal letter of dissolution from HQ & yet Joe Duffy had a copy in his mits! |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf - round two From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 20 Mar 08 - 07:26 PM Word on the grapevine has it that Comhaltas has dissolved the Clontarf branch (with name-blackening into the bargain). This link has more info: http://www.cluaintarbh.net/index.htm Can the membership not call for an E.G.M. and pass a vote of No Confidence, or something? |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf - round two From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Mar 08 - 02:23 PM Jim, 11 million. Bonnie, As Lab Rat has so far avoided making a statement, there is no indication of his intentions whatever. You may remember his expelling the West London Branch for refusing to donate to a political fund back in the 70s. My friend Paddy Boyle (Maggie's father) was one of the cmbatants at the time. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf - round two From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 16 Mar 08 - 09:37 AM What are they going to do with their valuable Belgrave Square premises? Sell it to property developers? When you consider the prices in Dublin, just imagine what that must be worth. Then they can move into the Clontarf centre and let the rest of 'em eat cake. You can bet HQ's lawyers went through everything with a fine-tooth comb before this move ever went public. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf - round two From: GUEST,Jim Martin Date: 16 Mar 08 - 08:36 AM Jim Carroll. €11,000,000 or $11,000,000? |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf - round two From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 16 Mar 08 - 05:03 AM Have the locals any legal recourse? Google - even if you narrow the search to Irish web pages only - is astonishingly reticent on this subject. I couldn't find anything up to date except a brief mention in a couple of fora similar to Mudcat. No proper news that I could see, prompting temptations to paranoia. Ah, the guiding hand of Labhrás Ó Murchú. Now why am I not surprised? |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf - round two From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Mar 08 - 04:30 AM Declan and Bonnie, Couldn't agree more - this is pretty much the feeling being expressed here in the Wild West (Clare). The story, as we have it at present, is as follows: The Clontarf members raised a phenomenal sum to build a music centre, mainly from Arts Council grants. When the work was completed they were told that, as they were registered as a charity, they were entitled to tax rebates of an unspecified, but very large sum, which they applied for and received. There was some doubt raised regarding the validity of the rebate so, to be on the safe side (in the present climate of fraud investigation tribunals etc here in Ireland), they returned the cheque until the matter could be clarified. President Labhrás ó Murchú, (known affectionately here as 'Larry-The Lab Rat') ballisticated, claiming that ALL money raised by branches which was not needed for local organisation, automatically belonged to Head Office. He (his decision alone - that's the way Comhaltas democracy works apparently) has expelled the branch and turned them out of the premises they built. The building, technically, now belongs to CCE and those who built it have no access to it; nor do they have anywhere to hold planned events for tomorrows St Pats Day. The first we heard of it was a very long radio phone-in programme on Wednesday (on which CCE head office refused to produce a spokesman). That, as far as I know, is how things stand at present. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf - round two From: Declan Date: 15 Mar 08 - 09:18 PM Don't know a lot about the internal Comhaltas politics here. But I have attended a number of annual fund raisers for this centre. I know that a lot of the organisational work (and the performances at the benefit gigs) have been done by members and friends of Craobh Chluain Tarbh. The Clontarf branch have always been, to my mind one of the least Comhaltas-like branches of the organisation - and as far as I am concerned that is a major compliment. I would hate to see all the effort that has gone into the completion of this centre ending up in another venue for the conservative wing of Comhaltas. A centre run by the Clontarf branch would almost certainly be much more to my liking. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf - round two From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Mar 08 - 06:02 PM Bonnie, On the national news - interminably. Local branch at Clontarf raised $11,000,000 to open centre. Comhaltas has expelled branch and taken over centre. More later Jim |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf - round two From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 15 Mar 08 - 01:50 PM Jim, can you fill us in a bit more? What (or rather which) dirty deed? |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf - round two From: Shaneo Date: 15 Mar 08 - 01:49 PM Was supposed to open this week, not all the money was raised local, A grant from the Irish government through the arts council which in turn pased through Ceoltas. The Clontarf branch wanted to run the centre themselves and decide what brand of the arts could be promoted there. Ceoltas have a very strict policy [view] on what constitutes ''traditional Irish'' This is not the first time a local branch and ceoltas had a falling out as C.C.E can be very dogged. |
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Subject: Battle of Clontarf - round two From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Mar 08 - 01:26 PM Does anybody have any information on what is happening in Clontarf regarding the world's most expensive traditional music venue (€11,000,000)? It would appear that the leadership of CCE has taken over the premises which was built with money raised by the local branch, and has expelled the branch in order to finalise the dirty deed. Any Comhaltas members out there? Any details. Jim Carroll |
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