Folksingers, the real deal

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 12:22 AM

Mike, I'm very glad to hear about your part of the Philadelphia Folk festival. I found the same thing at the Florida Folk Festival when I was visiting there. The main part of the festival was quite ocmmercial - but the workshops were wonderful.

Mind you, we have Mudcatters here who partipate in the San Francisco and Washington (DC) Free Folk Festivals, which are the real deal, not the commercial stuff.

So, you should go to the DC Getaway some year and get to know some Mudcat musicians. I think you'll like us.
-Jeo-

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Gurney
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 12:13 AM

Jeri, I draw the line at money. If you (or I) get paid, we are singing professionally, not folksingers. If we sing at the session afterwards, or from the floor, we are folksingers. I consider this applies to everyone, including professionals.
They are 'stars' when I buy their music. It is subjective, as far as I'm concerned.
Rhetorical questions answered while-you-wait, sometimes.

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Deckman
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 11:57 PM

Very rich comments!

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 11:42 PM

I do agree that folk music has become too much of a commodity. How to market yourself, how to make a successful recording, and other business-related 'necessities' of being a professional musician, are all aimed at money-making. The troubadors of days gone by probably didn't have to sell themselves quite so much, and a successful song was one that people liked and/or wanted to learn was not one they had to buy on a recording.

Of course, when you say, "full time folksingers regarding the larger market in which we ply our trade," you're talking about singers who make enough money to be professional.

I sing in living rooms and pubs, in campsites and cars, and I very seldom get up on a stage. I've made less than $100 singing my entire life. I sing because I love to sing. Real folksingers don't require audiences. It's all a matter of how much commercialism you want to allow in your definition. How much money can someone make? How many people in the audience? How many square feet in the venue? When does 'performer' turn into 'star'? Where do you draw the line?

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 11:21 PM

Various people have been quoted as the source - I have it as Burl Ives ! Question! "How do you know that song you've just sung is a FOLK Song ?" Answer - " I never heard a horse sing it!"
Mike I can see where you're coming from , but you are looking at it from a VERY American Viewpoint . And there are SO many ways of looking at Folk music , each different , depending on Where you are and What in particular turns YOUR switch .
For ME its the wonderful variety of ALL the various bits of this that and the other that combine in this strange genre that we call Folk !
We may be a writer and performer at major events , a support artist (and sometime headliner down the list) , a local 'star' , a floor singer in a club , or just one of the audience , joining in a chorus ,
but we are ALL part of that incredible entity we call Folk .

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Deckman
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 11:00 PM

Mike,

I think I get your point, but I might missed it! If you and I were alive 100 years ago, knowing what we know now, we'd be the real deal!
Am I understanding you? Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 10:49 PM

Kat, I'm sure about two SingOut! published Mudcat songwriters.

Mike, I disagree. 'Most of Mudcat' is, I believed, involved in bitching, complaining or arguing about something, and doesn't really talk about music too much these days. When we do, I don't know that we could be considered 'fans' just because we listen to other people's music and comment on it. Maybe that's not what you mean, though.

...and 'real' folksings don't give a fig whether someone else think's they're real folksingers. They just sing. My opinion, for what it's worth.

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: GUEST,Mike Miller
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 10:49 PM

I would like to thank all of you who have replied. the pros and the cons. My meaning is that, of course, a ticket buying, CD ordering audience is needed for a national folk music industry. Without the avid fans to orginise and support them, events, like the Philadelphia Folk Festival, would not be possible and, for those, like myself, who perform in these venues, audiences are valued and appreciated. But, and here's the hub, commercial venues represent, only, a small part of the professional folk market. I don't have to tell you guys that there are more licenced music therapists (with all trad repitoires) than there are full time "folksingers" on the festival and club curcuit. There are thousands of full time Irish musicians, Klezmerim, Polka bands and you-name-it, thousands of school assembly specialists, Gospel artists, tenor banjo toting singalongers, music directors, cantors, square dance callers (those guys can, really, sing), all of them, making very nice livings and continuing the tradition.
I am not, in any way, suggesting that Mudcat should turn its back on the "stars" or should establish a litmus test for what is, and what is not, folk music (Lord knows, we've been down that path before).
I just want to have an exchange with other full time folksingers regarding the larger market in which we ply our trade.
Joe, the Philadelphia Folk Festival is a commercial enterprise which has, often, employed me to run their workshops and campfires so bless their little singer/songwriter lovin' hearts. The funds from the festival provide grants for music therapy (Children's Heart Hospital and Shriners Hospital), The Odyssey of American Folk Music (Which sends traditional music into inner city schools), library programs, The Please Touch Museum series and a Community Service program that is, still, going strong after forty five years. So, although, the festival doesn't meet my lofty "folk" standards, their hearts are in place and I love them, one and all (As I do, all the Mudcatters)

                         Mike

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 09:59 PM

Sorry if I don't make sense. I thought I was being direct.

I think commercial folk music has lost its way and most of its fans. the remaining ones insist that folk music is some great esoteric thing, which ordinary folks are too dim to grasp.

I don't remember what Orwell said in 1984, (what did he call the lower orders)but Winston Smith wrote - if there is any hope, it is with the clods(or whatever he calls them.)

And thats how I feel about folk music - more comfortable with the clods.

Okay...?

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Midchuck
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 09:49 PM

Define "folk music."

Define "The People."

Then this conversation will make some sense.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 09:34 PM

I understand some of the frustration behind this posting.

They say that some of the Weavers found Woody Guthrie rather uncomfortable company - and you can, I think, empathise with him, if you think it through.

Folk music is functional music - designed to help people work and live and cheer up moany kids, and give the old folks a chorus to sing, because the radio has been blasting way all day rap or crap, or punk. Look at Woody's songs and you see such inherent mastery of these situations - and more and poetry. This is REAL folk music. It goes out in the world and connects with real folk.

And yet the younger more attractive kids who could sing complicated harmonies, played guitars that would cost more than a factory worker made in three months, played fancy techniques - they were getting to play better places than Woody and Cisco ever did.

On mudcat you routinely get someone saying several times a day that folk music has to be something that sounds old as Methuselah, can only be appreciated by the initiated who REALLY listen (unlike your average moron), is sung in some arcane weird manner, preferably to a dance rhythm nobody dances any more, using modal scales that can only be found in regular use on the other side of the world.

Look down the lists today and you will find several such threads, and several such people. they want to keep folk music as their exclusive domain.

All I can say is, you're absolutely right Mike Miller. But take heart. these people have only got money and influence and their snobbishness to keep them compnay, Most of them can't even stand to listen to each other.

The music will always belong to the people.

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Hawker
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 09:15 PM

Hi Mike,
I go into schools leading workshops in traditional singing games, folk song and dance and music. I have run workshops at festivals in songwriting and folk art. I ran a project with pre-school children called Little Folk teaching them about music through simple song, dance and music making. I teach maypole dancing to children and adults and for a number of years ran an after school Folk and Traditions club at our village school. I am also involved in a group called Sound Waves South West who raise money to provide three Music Therapists to those who need their services in North Cornwall and West Devon and witha a long term goal to set up a centre for music terapy. I also go into a centre once a month for adults with learning disabilities and lead them in singing a variety of songs. I am a member of Cornwall Songwriters and with whom I wrote and performed Unsung Heroes - The Lost Gardeners Of Heligan to a variety of audiences. For me the folk process is not just to perform or to watch but enjoy seeing it grow and change with time, and being able to share this with a younger generation, that they may have a pride in their own traditions and identity and to provide a release from the every day rat race, through expression in music song and dance, a sharing experience indeed. I may sound like I am blowing my own trumpet here on reading this back, but those who know me at the cat will know that I would never do such a thing, I just so enjoy what I do I am happy to share and take little or no monetary gain from this sharing. I have no musical qualifications other than Grade 1 and 2 violin and Grade 1 harp. I do have an NVQ level 4 (NVQ is a British qualification, some say it means 'Not Very Qualified' but it stands for 'National Vocational Qualification' and level 4 is equivalent to a degree) in delivering artform development programmes. So there you go I have told you what I do and I sometimes get to perform at festivals too!
Hope I am less of a disappointment! ( I know lots more on here like me too!)
Cheers,
Lucy

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 09:01 PM

Hello I am a bit confused now.
I get the bit about playing the small venues and maybe the big names pumped up by the industry are maybe a litte detached from the rest of us.(No one aimed at honest)
But if there were no one listening there would be no one to hear and learn and pass on a love for music.
I Write sing and play.
I only play for pleasure and usualy that means freinds and family.
But most of the people who are catters that I have had the honour of meeting,are the same.
We are all audience in some way and mostly the good people of the cat seem to be living the music.
Some play,some sing,some write,some organise bloody fine folk clubs and festivals.
A lot of the ones who you never hear playing can do but they keep it at home.
Many spend hours researching and digging out old tunes and songs that went out of fashion 'cos the "folks" got bored with them and wanted something else.
We all have our own ways of doing and being but we are all folkies and music lovers on here mate.
Same as you.

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Forsh
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 08:47 PM

Folk, I would argue, is beyond what would normally be described as ethnically divided, Folk has an ethnicity of its own?
Also, 'Fans' are on Mudcat. I am a fan, Nowhere near as good as those I enjoy, but I, like so many, like to sing, join in, do my spot, organise, etc. A Fan, A Folkie. A Singer, a perticipant. Of the Folk By The Folk for The Folk I say!

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 08:46 PM

Mudcat is for fans only, eh? And is there some reason that those of us who consider ourselves to be the "designated audience" can't participate in the folk music community? But I expect that you are entirely wrong about the members of our community not being singers; I have at least 20 CDs from Mudcat singers and singer/songwriters, not counting the 5-CD Mudcat set. Of course, I suppose that the likes of Jean Richie (Mudcat member kytrad) don't meet the standards of the Philadelphia Folksong Society.

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 08:35 PM

There are a lot of folks here at the Mudcat whom I know of who go out to schools, libraries, hospices, etc. that you list. One at least that I know of had a song published in SING OUT. I agree with Joe, I think you've probably got the wrong impression. We are each other's fans, yes, but there are mostly musicians, singers and songwriters, etc. here. if you'd like a list of folks let me now and I'll post a few names for you.

All the best,

kat

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 08:28 PM

Hi, Mike - I think maybe you have the wrong impression. Most of the Mudcatters I've met are singers, not fans. I've always thought that Mudcat's orientation was toward people who DO the music, and not toward the audience.
Of course, maybe I've had the wrong impression, too. I thought the Philadelphia Folksong Society was a bunch of people who listened to singer-songwriters, unlike the people from the folk music groups in Washington, San Francisco, Seattle, and the UK that frequent Mudcat (not to forget Canadian and Australian and Irish musicians who come here). I guess I'll have to learn more about the Philadelphia Folksong Society. As an outsider, all I know about is your annual festival, and that seems to be a commercial, singer-songwriter, audience-oriented event.

-Joe Offer, who sings in song circles, libraries, retirement homes, camps, churches, and taverns (and in the shower)-

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Deckman
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 08:17 PM

A very interesting topic.

Subject: Folksingers, the real deal
From: GUEST,Mike Miller
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 08:04 PM

I have been, a little, dissappointed to find that most of Mudcat seems to be aimed toward the fans rather than the reality of folk music. Sure, there are many fine performers of traditional music whose work is accessable through recordings and personal appearences.
I have enjoyed their work for decades and I have been privelaged to review their recordings in my monthly column in the Philadelphia Folksong Society's TUNE UP magazine. I have done quite a bit of recording and festival appearences, myself, these past fifty years and I continue to enjoy some small measure of recognition for my efforts but I contend that those performances are, but, a small part of what a real folksinger does. Real folksingers, and there are thousands of us, find our audiences in places that fanzines like SING OUT and, I fear, Mudcat tend to disregard. Most full time folksingers work in schools, from pre-school to university, in churches and synagogues, in libraries, in hospitals and hospices where the traditional music is used to train, to teach, to examine, to dance to, to heal, to pray, to comfort. Many real folksingers work within a particular ethnic setting, maintaining and continuing cultural lines that have stood for centuries. Some folksingers are part of religious communities, some part of political movements, most are employed, often, to provide musical continuity for children.
I do not begrudge the concert and CD fans their enthusiasm for the goings on and foibles of the famed. I would, however, hope that Mudcat might also be employed as a means of communication between those of us, strumming, happily, in the trenches.

                           Mike Miller   [e-mail]