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Are you a lumper or a splitter?
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: Jim the Bart Date: 07 Jul 00 - 01:00 PM McG of H - well said, as usual. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Jul 00 - 12:29 PM In a situation where there is inequality and oppression, it may well be right for the people on the bottom to get together in an exclusive way, but not right for the powerful people to do the same thing.
In a situation where there aren't any people at the bottom and people at the top, I can't see any harm in any special groupings, such as Women's HearMe's. And if it seemed there was harm , that'd be an indication that there we weren't really in a situation without people at the bottom and people at the top.
(And in fact we can't ignore that the Mudcat and the people on it, live in a range iof wider societies around then gklobe, some (most? all?) of which are a long way from being egalitarian and fair.)
"What feels to an individual like a nice idea today might very feel like injustice tomorrow" - so you change it tomorrow. I believe that holding to a firm principle can be just as dangerous as flying by the seat of your pants in these things. As William Blake said "Damn braces, bless relaxes."
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: GUEST,Barfy Date: 07 Jul 00 - 10:14 AM No doubt you will write the words of one for us |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: The Shambles Date: 07 Jul 00 - 08:26 AM Thank you for the info and the link Andy……. Very much on topic, I think but I take your point. You are very wise.
Very brave, I was going to say men but looking through their ages they were mostly boys. They certainly all became men that day. In the very best sense of the word. Do they have a song? |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: AndyG Date: 07 Jul 00 - 06:57 AM Keeping well away from the topic and inducing thread drift:
Shambles,
AndyG |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: The Shambles Date: 07 Jul 00 - 06:28 AM Kevin said. "And getting back to my deductive logic, I don't feel uncomfortable with the idea. And the reason for this turns out to be that, in the context of the Mudcat, there's no power or oppression issue involved. Men don't have a louder voice in the forum, or post more. At least it certainly doen't feel that way to me. And if it did feel like that to me, I'd be against the idea."
It does not feel that way to me either and that is why it makes me uncomfortable. For if there is no power or oppression issue involved on The Mudcat, there is no NEED to exclude anyone to redress that oppression?
But how the hell would two white, institutionalised sexist males know if there were, or were not power or oppression issues involved on The Mudcat? For if only one person felt differently, we would have to accept that there were these issues, wouldn't we?
I take your 'deductive (Irish) logical' point about examining how something feels and then working back from that point. The problem with that to me is, given the nature of feelings, what feels to an individual like a nice idea today might very feel like injustice tomorrow?
That is why I think that it is so important to try have clear understood broad principles of equality, all stick to them and be aware of when and why we are departing from them. It's a bit like trying to score the 'Golden Goal', when someone keeps moving the goal posts. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: GUEST,Barfy Date: 07 Jul 00 - 06:11 AM I think Shambles should prefix his all his posts with "Welcome to my home page." |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 Jul 00 - 10:12 PM Everytime I see this thread title it makes me think it should be about jobs in the old industries. You should find lumpers and splitters in a coalmine. Or maybe in a loggers camp.
Butbtomthe point. I can't see any reason why an all male HearMe mightn't be quite OK. Provided it's not the only game in town. Male Voice Choirs aren't in my view any more intrinsically sexist in principle than all male teams in field sports. Men's voices sound different from womens voices; sometimes what you want is all men singing together, sometimes all women, sometimes the mixture is what is needed. Mixed Rugby just wouldn't be the same game. (Some might prefer it, but I'd be suspicious of the motives.)
Yes, I know that HearMes don't as yet have people singing together (and can never have it, except on a pretty local basis, whatever the technology throws up, because of time difficulties), but having the odd singaround that's all male, or all female, I really can't see the problem.
And getting back to my deductive logic, I don't feel uncomfortable with the idea. And the reason for this turns out to be that, in the context of the Mudcat, there's no power or oppression issue involved. Men don't have a louder voice in the forum, or post more. At least it certainly doen't feel that way to me. And if it did feel like that to me, I'd be against the idea.
I used to be a social worker. As a man, I was very much in a minority. I just can't remember if the men in the office ever decided to set up a separate group to talk about things, but if we had it would have been a perfectly reasonable thing to do, and I don't think anyone would have objected to it. The same went for for the small number of black people in the department. But a talking group specifically set up to exclude the minorities - that would mean something very different indeed.
So far then, I can see two circumstances in which "exclusion" is ok. One is where there is no element of power and oppression involved, and it's just for some reason like getting a particular sort of sound, or some kind of physucal equivalence, in a team sport of some kind (in which category I'd include some types of dancing); and the other is where the purpose of the exclusion is to assist a group which is in danger of being excluded (or even endangered) to play a fuller role in a community or orrganisation.
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: Osmium Date: 06 Jul 00 - 07:42 PM And so is the human condition only a function of its ability to apply labels (splitters); male&female, black&white, tuba&mandolin, bluegrass&jazz - and then to apply general properties to labelled groups; immigrants, emmigrants, ethnic minotrities - and then to act on such usefull classifications; social class a,d,c,d,e - and take the whole human race technically forward?. Labels have necessary but very limited use; where splitters abide make sure the show is run by a lumper and we can all go forward. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: The Shambles Date: 06 Jul 00 - 06:58 PM Dearest Keeper of the Book.
How about a tuba only HearMe session? Or one for horses?
My agreement is not important or required. To be clear I have no problem with themes, sessions devoted to single instruments or any other obvious division musical divisions.
An all-female grouping appears to have been accepted as a good idea. It is the reasons why this grouping is generally thought to be acceptable, when an all male-grouping probably would have never even been requested on The Mudcat, that interests me?
It is a little difficult for me to compromise, as the issue IS one of equality.
Well…You should demand equality……….You would probably request accommodation?
If I am being asked to accept that women have RIGHT to exclude men then I have to accept that men have the RIGHT to exclude women. The whole struggle for equal rights has then been a nonsense.
If I am being asked to accommodate the exclusion of men for the reasons given, I would point out that very similar reasons to these have been given in the defence of all-male groupings. These clubs, churches and organisations have been accused of being the last bastions of male chauvinism. I believe they are.
There are very good reasons, sometimes for loading women's views and input, as sophocleese demonstrates and Kevin mentions but you must always recognise when you do this that it IS sexist and a step both to equality and at the same time a step away from it…. It should be done rarely, with care, for as temporary period as possible, the reasons being carefully thought through and clearly sign posted.
It is an accommodation not a RIGHT.
Eyes should always be kept on the prize of eventual equality, a time when no one needs, requires or wants to further their gender or race at the expense of another's.
If we are confused, how do our children feel, trying to live and understand this double standard? Tubby The Tuba (Mrs). |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: Whistle Stop Date: 06 Jul 00 - 08:26 AM Lots of food for thought here. Being relatively antisocial by nature, I'm not all that familiar with the protocols or mechanics of many of these communal gatherings of people for music and dance, so I may not have much of a frame of reference for this discussion. However, I think it's intriguing what happens when our desire for "tradition" (so central to the Mudcat) collides with our desire for equality and inclusion. As much as we may respect and be drawn to traditional modes of expression, we also should recognize that there is a lot of racism, sexism, and other forms of exclusivity built into many of these traditions. This can sometimes force us to choose between authenticity on the one hand, and fairness on the other. Speaking only for myself (of course), I will always put fairness and equality first, at the expense of authenticity if necessary. If women want to participate in a creative endeavor that is traditionally for men only -- whether it be a traditional folk dance, singing sea chanteys, etc. -- I say that they should be welcomed with open arms, and the tradition should be adapted to accommodate them. With any luck we'll be able to keep the elements of the tradition that are worth keeping, and discard the less appealing aspects. I realize that this is only one aspect of the discussion that is taking place on this thread. As for other reasons for excluding people from musical or other crative endeavors -- relative lack of skill, incompatible approach, undesirable personal qualities, etc. -- I figure it's like any other closed party. In other words, if you want to be selective, don't hold the event on the town common (or on the internet, for that matter), and make it clear from the outset that attendance is by invitation only. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: sophocleese Date: 05 Jul 00 - 10:56 PM That's interesting McGrath, approaching it from your direction. I wondered a few years ago when I was speaking to some Rotarians who had just included a woman for the first time about why this grouping was particularly exclusive and needed to have women in it. It revolved around issues of power and influence. If the majority of people in a government are male and belong to exclusively male clubs than female concerns (or concerns which are thought to be female; like childcare) are either not addressed or are addessed only as side issues rather than as important central issues. It is necessary then to break up the exclusivity of those clubs, not only with token women but with people who weigh the issues in a different fashion. A lot of the groups that you seem to find acceptable are ones that don't have clear, firm access to power or noticeable influence on the dominant culture. Fashion trends tend to be transmitted from the top down. People on Mudcat are clearly aware of the lack of folk music in the mainstream media. We cluster to gain strength and inspiration from each other and to avoid becoming a crowd of Alannis Morrisette clones. The people who represent, or seem to represent, the dominant culture are considered exclusive because they don't seem to need to cluster for strength in the same way. The water gets muddier though when you consider questions of influence and hybrids. Riverdance had some influence on popular music for a time but is considered by a lot of folkies to be a hybrid of limited authenticity. For those who had no idea of that kind of music and dance it came as a shock, pleasant or otherwise. So a group of Irish stepdancers wanting to remain pure to their pre-Riverdance traditions will be considered exclusive by those who learnt three tunes from the movie and now think they are part Irish. Then comes the knotty question of the mechanics of exclusion. Are people told bluntly, "Your opinions don't matter."? Do they work on a different sense of timing? Does A think that five seconds between songs is long enough and ten seconds means things are dragging while B needs twenty seconds to absorb the previous song before heading into the next? Is a difference in timing due to different cultures, gender, ages or something else? Are newer posters excluded when their comments or questions get buried under the familiar riffs, smartass comments and backchat that older mudcatters engage in? |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Jul 00 - 06:39 PM You see, what I'm trying to do is turn it the other way round. Instead of setting up criteria and then seing what fits them, I'm seeing what seems intuitively right to me, and then trying to work out what the criteria are from thta.
I think that's deductive logic rather than inductive logic. (I'm not too sure about that - but anyway, that's what a term like deductive logic ought to mean.)
So let's say I was playing in a band for a Morris side and they wouldn't allow a woman to play on that basis, I'd walk without hestitation. But if it was a women's Morris side collecting musicians, and they said no thanks - we just have women play for us, I wouldn't feel my nose had been put out of joint. (This is a thought experiment, because that's not the music I normally play anyway.)
Now tryingbto work out why I'd feel that way, it would probably be something along the lines - "There are reasons I can imagine why a group of women would want to have a piolicy like that which could be reasonable - they might be trying to get the message across that women can do this as well as any man, they might be wanting to include particular women who might have have had very bad experience with men, violence and so forth"
On the other hand with a Men Only band, those reasons wouldn't apply, or at any rate my assumption would be that they didn't. I'd see this policy as being directly discriminatory by people who wanted to stay in charge and enjoyed throwing their weight around.
Again, I could be wrong. I suppose it might be they had wives who had told them "I can just about put up with you going off cavorting with that bunch of yobs in funny costumes - but if I hear you've been having women playing tunes for you to jump around to, you'll regret it."
These thought experiments have a knack of turning into soap opera... I should quit horsing around like this. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: Naemanson Date: 05 Jul 00 - 06:00 PM Funny you should mention bluegrass tuba... Actually there was a Celtic tuba at Mystic this year and it isn't his first year there. He plays in Jerry Bryant's band FinestKind (not to be confused with Ian Robb's group). The band consists of Guitar, Mandolin, Banjo and Tuba. You haven't lived until you've heard Ashokan Farewell on tuba and mandolin. He plays right along on the jigs and reels as well. Very impressive. I guess I'm a lumper. I only exclude excluders. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: Áine Date: 05 Jul 00 - 05:31 PM Dear Roger, these type of adjustments to the underlying principles of equality -- Ah, I think I see the problem. This is a horse of a different colour. I do believe that the question of separate HearMe groups hangs on the question of accommodation, not equality. I don't remember having seen anyone arguing that so-and-so or such-and-such are not equal; only that certain groups (i.e., women singers, men singers, banjo players, etc.) be afforded the chance to meet together and swap songs and/or tunes. Perhaps, if you could consider the motion under the terms of accommodation, you could find a way to compromise on the issue? -- Áine |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: The Shambles Date: 05 Jul 00 - 05:16 PM "For example, in the folk world, I see no objection to a dance team of dancers restricted to men, but I would object to them refusing to allow women musicians; however I would not make the same objection (at this time) to a women's dance team which insisted on having only women musicians."
I would be grateful if you could enlarge a little on what point would you be prepared to make the same objection? For does the not the longer you are prepared to make these type of adjustments to the underlying principles of equality, make the possibility unlikely, of actually ever achieving that equality? |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Jul 00 - 01:57 PM Clearly it's got to be children first, together with the people who are looking after them, in any real emergency. Which in most situations would mean there might not be too many men on the boats, though there might well be a number of women left on the sinking ship.
Fortunately we're not quite in that situation yet. (Have we had a Mudcat-on-the-Titanic thread yet?)
Thread drift is clearly continuing. But to get back on course for a moment (pending imminent shipwreck no doubt) - the only reason for objecting to a sepoarte group is because it might be oppressive. Which means the real question of what is oppressive and what is not, and who determines this.
I think a good way of working out what's fair and what is not would be to have a mind experiment. List a range of imaginary groups, then decide involve these kind of problems, and then work back to decide what it is about them that makes this difference,
For example, in the folk world, I see no objection to a dance team of dancers restricted to men, but I would object to them refusing to allow women musicians; however I would not make the same objection (at this time) to a women's dance team which insisted on having only women musicians.
I would object to a dance team of either gender which would only accept "white English" dancers; but I would not object to a team from a settled immigrant community restricting its membership to members of that community.
I would not object to a session having rules about the tradition of music which it focussed on, provided there were opportunities for different types of music as well, maybe on different nights.
And I see no problems at all in having a HearMe for women singers only, and I wouldn't see any problems with one for men songers only, but both of these would belong in a side room.
And that'll do for now. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: The Shambles Date: 05 Jul 00 - 12:40 PM As to thread emigration, think of it more as 'manning (if I can still use that word) the lifeboats' to leave a stricken vessel. Is it still 'women and children first' nowadays? By the way, where and when did that convention start?
Ideally I am a lumper but there is no point in having a lump so large that it cannot be loaded by all who may be interested. For some reason I was reluctant to create Womens HearMe 2……..?
This thread was about grouping and there was room for more contributions. I was hoping that it could explore the question of why some groupings are acceptable and some are not? …..In a less charged atmosphere. The lifeboats however appear to be (thread) drifting where they will?……….. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: Áine Date: 04 Jul 00 - 09:54 PM Why thank you, Banjo Bonnie! It's nice to know that my sixth grade gross out skills haven't completely been lost to time. -- Áine |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: Little Neophyte Date: 04 Jul 00 - 09:50 PM Aine, that was really gross. Your description would even make a buzzard cringe. Bonnie |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: Áine Date: 04 Jul 00 - 09:12 PM If you beat a dead horse long enough, you'll eventually hear the music of the flies around a bloated corpse, and the lovely splat of the putrid rotting lumps of flesh splitting apart into piles of runny ooze... Bon chance! -- Áine (I knew though forensic classes would come in handy some day...)
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Jul 00 - 08:24 PM If you're into beating horses, better dead ones than live ones.
You can drag a dead horse to water, but you cannot make it drink.
But I never heard a dead horse sing.
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: GUEST,Colwyn Dane Date: 04 Jul 00 - 08:23 PM "All music is folk music, I ain't never heard no horse sing a song." Louis Armstrong. Toodle-pip. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: The Shambles Date: 04 Jul 00 - 07:06 PM There's many a good tune beaten out of a dead horse |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Jul 00 - 07:04 PM I like that idea of Shambles of inviting people over from one thread to another one. Thread emigration. Sort of the opposite of thread drift. I heven't seen it done like that before, and it strikes me as a handy piece of of social invention.
Of course it is wide open to accusations if splittism. It's a bit like a crowded session which is getting overwhelmed by people who are playing stuff you don't feel like playing - you might grab a couple of cronies and head off to another room.
And that seems a very sensible thing to do. It means there are two sessions on, for a start, and bioth with people enjoying playing in them. The tricky bit comes if you found yourself wanting to say "you're in the wrong session - try nextdoor."
But there are times that'd be just the right thing to say. The puzzle is working out when it is, and when it's definitely not.
Well if anyone's going to Sidmouth (and if you are, I hope we meet there), here's an example in point - The Anchor is a pub in the middle of it; and at the height of activities you'll find the Middle Bar, where there is a well established song session (already mentioned in tghis thread I think), and up the stairs nextdoor there's a bar where there's a well established tune session, mostly Irish and Scottish and that. And out in the garden there's a dance band playing with a caller , and people dancing. And out in front of the pub there's another floating session, where all kinds of mixtures of music are playing.
And I could go on and on, reminding myself of all the different venues which have developed over the years with different conventions of what fits there and doesn't. And if anyone wandered into one of them with an appetite to play music that didn't fit in there, you could always advise where it probably would. (The bluegrass tuba - I'd suggest playing it in front of the Anchor, and seeing who joined in.)
The thing is different musics can play alongside each other, and sometimes play with each other. But in order for that to happen they have to have an identity of their own which is distinct from that of the other musics.Just as when instruments to play together it's better if they have different voices.
Going apart is a necessary precondition to being able to come back into the common with a special gift to share with other people.
My house is full of books all jumbled together, and the words in my head from the different books may get mixed up - but in then books they are all there distinctnand separate, a different world between each set of covers. My records are more organised by catergories - largely because its easy to run my eyes along a varied bunch of books on a shelf and pick out the one I'm after. Can't do that with records, or even with CDs. But most of the records I've got were probably picked up by browsing through heaps of secondhand ones in boot fairs and jumble sales and so forth.
So I pick out things from a confused muddle, and that mkaes me a splitter, and then I take them home and put them on the shelves in a confused muddle, and that makes me a lumper. They aren't really opposed attitudes, any more than the different sections of a tune or a dance are opposed to each other. And if some people are more splitters than lumpers, it's the other way round form other people - and that's how dances work. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: Áine Date: 04 Jul 00 - 01:01 PM Beating a dead horse only gets you a flattened mushy dead horse. -- Áine ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: Jon Freeman Date: 04 Jul 00 - 12:03 PM sledge, I think you have hit on one of the problems when you say "invited to your house". Let me try again: 1. There had been a complaint made by Harpgirl that Mbo had been singing to much and not letting others get a turn and there was some disucssion and as I result, I made it possible for anybody to set up a room using my page for whatever event they wished. 2. Harpgirl comes up with a suggestion for a Hearme event that by its definition excludes certain people from participating, 3. I suggest that such an event would be better placed in a private room (cf your house). 4. Before I know it my suggestion is being read as being sexist. I'd have thought that somebody who had previously complained about not getting a look in would have been the first to understand that those rules were effectively stoping others from peforming and could have at least entered into a reasonable discussion on the possibility of using a different location. The biggest problem with that whole debate was that few people were capable of looking at a general problem which it is (or could be at some point in the future ) and has nothing to do with whether HG's suggestion was a good one or not. If people wish to use my page, a reasonable discussion on how to use it to best suit the needs of everybody would be constructive but I think that with the current feeling it would be impossible. Why is it so hard for people to simply step back a little and look at the real problem without clouding the issue with other subjects? Jon |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: bbelle Date: 04 Jul 00 - 11:57 AM I enjoy all kinds of music so reckon I'm a lumper. I don't, however, feel excluded if a session or festival is exclusively about one particular genre of music. If I'm familiar with the genre, I join in ... if I'm not, I don't. I'm going to attend Steve Kaufman's Flatpickers' Kamp next June, which is specifically about bluegrass. Even though I'm not specifically a bluegrass musician, I love it, and wouldn't deny myself the opportunity because of what someone else might term "exclusivity" ... moonchild |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: sledge Date: 04 Jul 00 - 09:45 AM Play on Harpgirl and do your thing. Just because I invited some friends to my home to play I would not expect to have to admit others I don't really know just because THEY felt excluded. This Mudcat thing is a very widepread community and to help bring it all a little closer these sort of things should be encouraged not critisised. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: The Shambles Date: 04 Jul 00 - 09:15 AM There is some discussion on exclusion and other stuff here. Women's HearMe? |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: Bill D Date: 15 Jun 00 - 11:09 PM see...they grow up to just the right size |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: Bill D Date: 15 Jun 00 - 11:04 PM naawww..I think I'll just plant one of those little Euphoniums... |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: GUEST,Liz the Squeak Date: 15 Jun 00 - 06:25 PM Funny you should mention getting tubas fixed - my doctor has agreed after 4 years to just write the letter!! Anyone want a spare egg? LTS |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: sophocleese Date: 15 Jun 00 - 06:12 PM Well how many people on Mudcat have had their tubas fixed? I like the way you say that Bartholomew. Perhaps to refine on Shambles' categories, I'm a splitter but not an excluder. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: GUEST,Liz the Squeak Date: 15 Jun 00 - 06:03 PM Well I'm all for a little bit of homogeneous lumping, but who started the tuba fixation?? LTS
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: Jim the Bart Date: 15 Jun 00 - 02:39 PM Nature does not lump or split. The universe is a continuum, without the types of seams that splitting requires and with many more degrees of subtle variation for homogeneous lumping. As a technique for understanding nature and the umniverse, both lumping and splitting have their purposes and can be useful - but only when applied properly. Both can be counter-productive when taken to the extreme, or adhered to when situations would dictate otherwise. Making distinctions is what allows doctors to figure out which ointment to prescribe, or which part to lop off, or which artery to unclog. In fact, it is our ability to make finer and finer distinctions - to measure things ever more closely - that keeps moving the species forward, technologically speaking. The thing is to be able to see the differences in like things and the commonality in disparate things. And the trick is to alter your focus. It's like the old zen riddle says: First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is. Or was that Donovan? This all applies when talking about music. I think in music, a single-minded obsession with categorization and definition is just a step on the road to madness. To say that a Tuba is not a bluegrass instrument is disingeneous; the truth is probably closer to "I don't think I like the sound of Tubas in a bluegrass band". To say that in your experience, Tuba hasn't worked well in a bluegrass context might be closer to the truth. To listen to the Tuba player play "Foggy Mountain Breakdown" before making a judgment about whether she/he adds to the music, is to hear bluegrass again, for the first time. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: Bill D Date: 15 Jun 00 - 01:27 PM ah, Shambles...maybe it is my advancing age that makes me so picky..*grin*...I spent many years hearing and sorting out my musical tastes, and now with a limited income and even more limited time, I want to be able to cater to my mood quickly...and there is much I KNOW I will not be interested in, so when a store has a couple of bins labeled simply 'American Folk' and 'International', I cringe. Yeah, I 'might' learn something new flipping thru all the neo-folk and pop-folk and S/SW stuff to find one or two things that I really fancy, but it seems to me that NOT breaking it down into clear categories that make sense is sheer laziness if you are in business. Same goes for advertising concerts, open stages, festivals, and song circles...if all you do at your song circle is "Rise Up Singing", say so, so I can stay home! If you bill yourself a folk-singer, but barely know anything older than Dylan, and write most of your own stuff, you are fooling two of us, me and YOU! And I would prefer NOT to spend money on a concert that I only like 10% of. I simply do not accept that having narrower, well defined fields of interest in music..(or any other area) is somehow petty and/or shallow. Dog shows, woodworking, cooking, antiques, auto racing and computers all have categories which people pick & choose among....and you see the same discussions there about lumping & splitting, but many of those groups have **DEFINITIONS** of their various formats. You can be part of several different groups, but you can at least choose. Anyway...if you bring your tuba to my party, be prepared to be locked out of the ballad room...*big grin*
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: The Shambles Date: 15 Jun 00 - 06:42 AM Well I know we visited the record shop before but it does highlight the problem. To the owner of the shop above, it is in perfect order. To Bill D it is not and to Roger, it's completely over the top. You're probably right about me. I browse until I stumble upon something that looks interesting. I think that I tend to learn a little in the process too. If the music was being played in the shop however, we could all find out pretty quickly what we liked? We may be pleasantly surprised as well? |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: Mark Cohen Date: 15 Jun 00 - 02:09 AM Be yourself You can't be anybody else Be yourself Or else you'll always be a nobody So be yourself, or else A hippopotamus Would look very curious Flying like a butterfly A fierce and hungry lion Would look very silly tryin' To bake an apple pie I think you'd get a laugh If you saw a tall giraffe Swinging by his tail from a tree I think an octopus Would look quite ridiculous Knitting sweaters at the bottom of the sea, so... [repeat chorus] I don't know who wrote it, but it's on Danny Kaye's recording of Tubby the Tuba at the Circus. Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: GUEST,Rollo Date: 15 Jun 00 - 12:50 AM Well, if you think about it, as long folk music is "living" it is lumper's music, but when it's "dying" and just a style to be preserved it's splinter's music. the reason is, whenever the folks around make music, they bring every instruments they have, sing all the songs they have and if someone brings along the tuba he is weelcome of course, because a tuba is delivering a great base. MUSIC TIP >>> And You should watch out for Hans Theesink, a dutch blues gitar player who is often accompanied by a marvelous tuba player named jon sass. Great deal, this duo. But when folks doesnt come together to make music any onger, but just a bunch of fanatics (like me *ggg*) who remembers the music of the old days, then they just remember which instruments were brought normally and which songs were sung and poor tuba man must play some bohemian march music because noone remembers ole nick huggins bringing his tuba down to the fair in some rotten hillbilly village in the 1890ies. Maybe this is the reason I hardly play the trombone these days but my banjo begs for mercy.
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: Bill D Date: 14 Jun 00 - 09:42 PM yay, Animaterra!...you said it WELL!...(Shambles, that record shop (back up there^)would have me frothing at the mouth...I need some sort of order..whereas, I suppose you would just cheerfully paw through bins till something looked interesting) |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: sophocleese Date: 14 Jun 00 - 06:30 PM Years ago my younger brother and I thought we'd cheer my sick mother up with a little skit. My brother would pretend to have his finger stuck in his ear and then, after various contortions, when he finally removed it I would pull the bathroom plunger from the wall and provide a loud POP. We rehearsed it in the bathroom several times and it all went well. Then we went to hallway by my mother's room and played it for her in the doorway. At last my moment for sound effects came and I pulled the plunger away from the wall. To my horror no loud POP sounded but instead a large section of plaster crumbled to the floor. My mother laughed and suggested I cover the spot with a poster until we repainted. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: Hollowfox Date: 14 Jun 00 - 06:19 PM I'm glad my kids aren't the only ones with oddly pink underwear. The stripes generally go with the majority (mostly light into the light pile, etc.) BTW, my father told me about a man whose summer job was to play "Flight of the Bumblebee" as a tuba solo in a local amusement park some 50+ years ago. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: GUEST,Liz the Squeak Date: 14 Jun 00 - 04:57 PM Are they anything like Micro chips? Can I eat them?? As one who can spend four hours sorting things into groups, I dare not delve too deeply into this, but basically, if a song/tune overlaps into 2 or more groups, you have a good song/tune, and you should proceed to sing/play it to death.... figuratively speaking of course. I once filled an old picture hook hole in a white wall with toothpaste - SO didn't notice for over a year..... once it dries, it just looks like ordinary filler. He only found out when he wiped the wall down ready for painting it.....! LTS |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: AllisonA(Animaterra) Date: 14 Jun 00 - 04:56 PM ...for me it's more an issue of do I like my soup pureed or more stew-like? I'm definitely a lumper but I want to know what the lumps are! |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: GUEST,Penny S. Date: 14 Jun 00 - 04:52 PM There are, by the way, microsplitters, for whom normal splitting is too much like lumping to be tolerable. Penny |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: SINSULL Date: 14 Jun 00 - 04:45 PM My brothers outdid that Soph. While playing with a 22 rifle one day, they shot a hole in the bedroom ceiling. Rather than risk a well deserved beating, they fill the hole with crayons matching the ceiling. Their deed was not discovered until years later when it came time to repaint. Note to gun owners and parents in general: Lock them or your children up - your choice. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: sophocleese Date: 14 Jun 00 - 04:30 PM You cover up the pale bits with dark marker Liz. Well that's what my son tried to do one day. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: SINSULL Date: 14 Jun 00 - 04:29 PM paddymac or Catspaw??? |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: GUEST,Liz the Squeak Date: 14 Jun 00 - 04:28 PM Nice to hear about your laundry, my SO hasn't quite realised this yet - the amount of white T shirts I had has dropped dramatically, and we both own matching fuschia pink underwear now!! Guess he'd just be a lump....... But how do you separate light and dark colours when you have a pale shirt with dark stripes in it....? LTS |
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