Do you tell someone to shut up?

Subject: RE: Do you tell someone to shut up?
From: Mikal
Date: 09 Jan 00 - 08:05 PM

Gee...I am a Bodrhan player...

(Chuckle) I know what the kid is doing, and that is the young attempt to be that "drumming wizzard" he saw at the local Ren-Fest, or pub. It's an image thing.

I introduced one "would be drum god" to another friend of mine. She plays well now, but wears a wrist support due to over-playing and trying for all those fast "tripples" on every tune.

I have also offered a kid one of my towels. I keep one to muffle the drum when I practice. (Held behind the head, the effect is to reduce most of the boom to a tap.) I have the habit of bring three with me now, just in case.

Just to be fair, almost all of us were that kid at one time or another. Just starting out, that goatskin feels so cool when you slide a tipper over it. and the feeling you get is something like the all drummers get, of rhythum and magic all in one...(And this from a C of E kid!)

Give him a towel and have him try it for a muffle. It will make for less sound and just as much practice for him. Also tell him that the long term effects of drumming fast can mean never playing without a wrist brace, and lots of cortisone injections! The best players are hardly there, just a hertbeat in the background most of the time.

Mikal, (aspiring to be a heartbeat in a Celtic song.)

Subject: RE: Do you tell someone to shut up?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jan 00 - 01:30 PM

Herge wrote in the poist that started this thread: "One in particular who is very young plays very fast to evey single tune that is played" - sounds very like a young boy who used to come to sessions with his dad, and accomplished musician.

The boy was actually very good technically, but also very enthusiastic and loud. So one day one of the other msuicians asked him to move away a bit. The man's good natured enough, but he has a gruff and abrupt manner to him sometimes.

Anyway the upshot was that the boy stopped coming, and decided he didn't want anything more to do with this type of music.

The point I'm making is that you've got to be careful in this kind of situation. People are often much moire vulnerable than you realise. There's no harm in the bodhran bashing jokes between friends, once you can trust each other, but you've got to make sure it doesn't get out of hand.

When people really can't play, it's not so hard to find a appropriately +tactful way of shutting them up (and, depending on the person, "appropriately tactful" can be quite forceful). But when people are actually technically good, but playing in the wrong way at the wrong time, it can be harder, bvecause they have invested more of themselves in what they are doing - and that was what happened I think with the boy in this case.

But whatever happens don't anyone go following the example of the oaf wildlone mentioned who destrung the guitar while making a cheap crack about being a music lover. Not with a young player anyway. You might try that one with an old bastard like me - but you'd be taking a bit of a chance.

Subject: RE: Do you tell someone to shut up?
From: Chet W.
Date: 09 Jan 00 - 01:22 PM

Back in my college days at the University of South Carolina, on warm days (not hot) I would occasionally take my guitar to one of the more serene shady parts of the campus and play and sing, just for my own pleasure. One of the nicest spots was right outside the College of Music. On more than one occasion, I would be playing this or that folk song and someone would come out of the building, instrument case in hand, and would stop and take out his/her violin, oboe, or whatever and join in. Then there would be another, and another, and before I knew what was happening I was being accompanied by a fairly large orchestra. Sometimes the upper windows of the building would open and someone would join on the pipe organ, or the carillon would pick it up in the adjoining chapel's bell tower. Trying to get them to stop was out of the question. When I finished a song, someone would say "How about 'Midnight Special' again?", which they knew was one of my favorites. I didn't know whether to be grateful or humble or what, and after a few songs I usually just got up and left, to a chorus of "Let's do this again" or "When will you be back?". I do look back on those days with some pleasure, but at the time it was a pain in the ass.

Chet

Subject: RE: Do you tell someone to shut up?
From: RichM
Date: 09 Jan 00 - 12:19 PM

I don't really have a simple answer to this. I have met this problem in many different kinds of music over the years. For instance, at a bluegrass jam session, where there are 10 musicians, 7 of which are guitarists---including me!

Some of these jams I ran, when I was a session leader for our local bluegrass club. Even then, it wasn't easy to resolve. Some people have one or two formula accompaniments that they use, whether it fits the song or not.

I have tried a) politely asking everyone to keep the volume down, especially if they don't know the song...

b)Asking people not to play the MELODY loudly while someone is singing.

c)Sometimes I would play in a key like Gflat or Eflat WITHOUT a capo...usually this would delay the onslaught of wrong or off-tempo chords...

d) This one is mean, but sometimes, I would fake chord changes during a song, and watch the fingerboard hawks try to figure out what chord that was...This is only effective when the wall of sound hides everything anyway.

What I do now, is sometimes ask people not to accompany me when the circle comes round to me. Or I deliberately choose to sing an un-accompanied tune. AND make it clear, that it is NOT to be accompanied...

Rich McCarthy

Subject: RE: Do you tell someone to shut up?
From: Midchuck
Date: 09 Jan 00 - 12:08 PM

"Peter T." said:

"It seems that in the performing case people get so much pleasure out of being immersed in playing the music that they have no idea what an audience is hearing. It is interesting because obviously you want to have both -- pleasure in participating, and also giving pleasure; but the shifts back and forward over that divide obviously require some work for some people. I never thought about it in music before."

My friend McCormack put out a publicity brochure years ago, in which he said essentially the same thing but more strongly. He said, approximately:

"An artist who performs only for the audience is a whore. An artist who performs only for himself is an insufferable bore, unless he's a genius, which I'm not."

His point was the same, that a performer has to strike a balance - unless, I suppose, if he likes being a whore because it pays better.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Do you tell someone to shut up?
From:
Date: 09 Jan 00 - 11:50 AM

Joe,
Did you ever see the episode of the Andy Griffith Show, where Barney Fife joins the local choir?

As far as the loud, or inexperienced Bodhran player is concerned

1 - The singer should have the option of saying no "drum", or no "accompaniment" on this or that song.

2 - whomever is facilitating the Session, should have the clout to do that as well.

Speaking as a non-musician, who has to STRETCH his ears to hear one singer among 6-8 guitars and 2 bodhran players and a fiddle. And this from only 8 feet away!

Subject: RE: Do you tell someone to shut up?
From: Peter T.
Date: 09 Jan 00 - 10:46 AM

Actually, he said warming to his subject, the reverse is interesting too. As someone who has never performed music in public, but has done a lot of theatre, I notice that people who are self-conscious about how people are reacting to their performance lose all pleasure in participating in the creation of a piece, and become choppy and disconnected. So for the reverse problem to the one originally posed -- get people who are performance shy in music to focus on the experience of playing to take their mind off their how they are appearing? Hmmm. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Do you tell someone to shut up?
From: Peter T.
Date: 09 Jan 00 - 10:39 AM

I think Joe's tactic is very interesting. I have a related, but different problem, with students and essay writing. They think that they are writing for themselves, and it comes as a shock to them when I point out that the whole essay format is designed to present a tool for other people to use. They have been taught self-expression for so long (as a way to get them writing in high school) that the idea that someone else would read it, or need what they have written is quite shocking. It is a real mental "paradigm shift" -- read this as if you were someone else. It seems that in the performing case people get so much pleasure out of being immersed in playing the music that they have no idea what an audience is hearing. It is interesting because obviously you want to have both -- pleasure in participating, and also giving pleasure; but the shifts back and forward over that divide obviously require some work for some people. I never thought about it in music before.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Do you tell someone to shut up?
From: _gargoyle
Date: 08 Jan 00 - 11:05 PM

If....a member of the audience .....or the ensamble

Is out of line.....

.....................YES!!!!.....tell them....and make it

emphatic!!!

Subject: RE: Do you tell someone to shut up?
From: Willie-O
Date: 08 Jan 00 - 10:55 PM

Quite a few years back, I used to go down to the regular Saturday night jam session, country-music-type, in a lakeside tavern in freeze=yer=ass=off country where I lived back then. I was a better than average guitar player in that crowd, so I always figured I could do no wrong. It was a serious drinking scene, and I was right into that too.

One Sunday afternoon I dropped into the bar, where I'd been jamming the night before. Without saying a word, Rick the owner (an o.k. guy but mediocre musician who'd basically bought a bar so he could have a place to play and drink--obviously not Rick Fielding) started playing a tape he'd made of the previous nights jam. About halfway through the second song, I realized the abysmal sounding vocal disharmony I was hearing--on the whole song, not just chorus--was my own voice. Just awful sounding. I kept jamming there sometimes but cut way back on the "harmonies". Never was quite sure if this was the message I was intended to get from hearing the tape--the subtle approach was not this guy's strong point--but it was difficult for me to feel insulted, since it could have been a sort of back-handed compliment that he figured I was smart enough to get the message in a sober moment.

Worked on me, it might even work on a bodhran player...

Willie-O
Older Not Much Wiser

Subject: RE: Do you tell someone to shut up?
From: _gargoyle
Date: 08 Jan 00 - 10:54 PM

It has been my experience, at least within the U.S.A., that the phrase, "shut-up" was tatamount to "FUCK-YOU"

In the past, there has been Unbelievable Offense, Ubridge (sic), taken by the offended party.

However, they HAVE deserved the "disciplinary action."

"shut up" is not Fuck You!

But I have been more than happy...that they have interpeted "it"...that way.

Subject: RE: Do you tell someone to shut up?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Jan 00 - 07:21 PM

Same things happens with group singing, but I'm working on a solution that seems to work pretty well. Instead of telling people to quiet down, I suggest that they listen for the blend of the sounds of the voices and instruments, rather than just listening for their own voice. That has made a lot of difference in three of the groups I sing with.
Now I'm working on two choirs to get them to let the sounds of the voices blend before they reach the microphone, rather than having people fight to see who gets closest to the mike. That part of the experiment isn't working very well yet. I've sometimes resorted to putting unplugged microphones in front of people, just to get them to stand where I want them to stand.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Do you tell someone to shut up?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 08 Jan 00 - 06:53 PM

Yep it is a dilemma, and there is NO answer that will please all. Happens (eventually) in every group, and your options are the same now as they would have been 500 or a thousand years ago.

A. Leave the group, give your reason, and start another.

B. Continue to be annoyed and tough it out.

C. Tell the person politely to stop making it difficult, and I can almost guarantee you they will react with hostility. self-centred people NEVER,NEVER can see that they are making life difficult for others, and their very nature makes them immune to a subtle approach.

D. Remember that the sage who first said "One bad apple can spoil the while bunch" knew what they were talkin' about.

E. 'Course ya could shoot them, but the satisfaction would only last for an hour or so!

Rick

Subject: RE: Do you tell someone to shut up?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 08 Jan 00 - 06:37 PM

A diffuclt one and I have made my comments in previous threads relating to session etiquite etc and am not going to go through all that again. I do however wonder about Barry Finn's advice. This is fine if the player(s) have respect for the "senior" bodhran player but I have known a person giving a fellow bodhran player being thought of as being jelouse because the clueless player really thinks that he is the best in the session, have seen stupid petty rivalrys creep in...

Jon

Subject: RE: Do you tell someone to shut up?
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 08 Jan 00 - 06:28 PM

I find it very difficult, I used to sing and play in one place and this guy always tried to accompny me on his guitar, didn't matter if I was picking or strumming and he didn't often get it right either. In the end I gave up and never went back. (It was his problem , he did it to others as well as me, but he was part of the "local group" and that was it. If it's a bodrahn player though get out a bloody big Bowie knife and say.............. Eric

Subject: RE: Do you tell someone to shut up?
From: clare s
Date: 08 Jan 00 - 06:22 PM

I tell lots of people to shut up...

Especially Americans :-)

Clare

Subject: RE: Do you tell someone to shut up?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 08 Jan 00 - 06:03 PM

Actually this is an easy thing to deal with. Be polite, be honest, and try to show by example what they should do, don't hurt the enthusiasm, just direct it.

Don

Subject: RE: Do you tell someone to shut up?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 08 Jan 00 - 06:00 PM

I found that it's best handled by a fellow bodrhan player. If they're taken under the wing & showed a few helpful tricks along with an explanation on bodhran manners, something that alot of beginners have never heard of. If you don't want drum accompanyment (though I couldn't for the world understand why) just gently put your hand up as in halt or be a little more forward & softly put your hand on their drum, if that doesn't work tell 'em that you chose not to accompany yourself so follow suit. It's not just the drummers that need some TLC those strung out stringers & those button pushers could use a little too. Barry

Subject: RE: Do you tell someone to shut up?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 08 Jan 00 - 05:51 PM

OK Magpie,

I won't pick on the drummer. Can I pick on the piper instead?

Don

Subject: RE: Do you tell someone to shut up?
From: wildlone
Date: 08 Jan 00 - 05:48 PM

I am sure this is the bane of all sessions.
At our ECWS events there will be a session in a local pub or round a fire and a guy used to play a guitar but he used to drink as well somtimes at the same time as his booze level went up his ability to play went down.
On night the guitar was even more out of tune than usual. There was a realy good accapella session going and off he started one of the group got up took the guitar and wound the strings off the tuning heads saying "sorry I am a music lover". At the next event our guitar playing friend took along a recorder,whistle and harmonica.

Subject: RE: Do you tell someone to shut up?
From: Magpie
Date: 08 Jan 00 - 05:47 PM

In my opinion, bodhran players aren't any worse than other musicians, but they are a bit louder. If you don't want to insult or hurt anyone, wait a bit, and the topic will be brought up in a discussion.(I assume you have them every once in a while.) That would be a good time to let everybody know that sometimes, less is more. Then it doesn't have to be directed at any particular person or instrument.

Magpie

Subject: RE: Do you tell someone to shut up?
From: sophocleese
Date: 08 Jan 00 - 05:41 PM

Can the singers make a request for NO accompianment on some songs? And then be sure that the older, more experienced, players follow that direction. The others will pick it up in time if they are the only ones playing into the void, at least, I hope they would. Also, depending on your personality and that of the young player, can you talk quietly after a session about it and explain that you don't want to discourage him/her but sometimes he/she needs to hold back and consider the song as a whole? My sympathy to you. Its a very tricky issue to tread that line between crushing beginner egos and having to listen to them persistently play when its not necessary. Do they get chances for bodhran solos? Perhaps if they were given that opportunity they would understand the need during other's solos to back off. Then again we are talking bodhran players and they aren't necessarily the brightest lights on the tree.

Subject: RE: Do you tell someone to shut up?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 08 Jan 00 - 05:34 PM

You are talking about a bodrhan manipulator Herge, can't do much but shoot them.

Subject: Do you tell someone to shut up?
From: Herge
Date: 08 Jan 00 - 05:30 PM

At my local session there is an abundance of Bodhran players! One in particular who is very young plays very fast to evey single tune that is played, including solo songs and slow airs. We don't want to discourage potential fucture talent, but this is beyond a joke! What can we do? Herge