Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 01:18 PM

"Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?"

Because only worthless things are free

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Rasener
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 01:15 PM

To anybody who doubts the cost of running a club, and the costs that never get charged, then all I can say, is get off your arse and do it yourself and then you will know. To say that somebody might bbe having a jolly on the money taken at a club, you must have a very suspicious mind and obviously have no idea what it costs.
If I didn't bear the costs of te;lephone calls, printing/publicity and website costs, the club would have a deficit. If the support Artists didn't play for nowt, ther wouldn't be the money to bring a guest in.
As for the performer Jed Arrum who belittles the efforts of club organisers who don't earn anything and do things for the love of it implies that we are not able to run a club, you are a lucky git to get any work. Its the club organisers that give you your bread and butter and never forget that.

>>I love the venues where the focus of the folks running the place is on the music - but I know if they don;t have enough business savey to keep their venue afloat there's no reason for me to be playing there.<<
You pompous ass. Clubs make money on non full gig nights and that money generally goes towards funding your salary when you get a gig. Remind me not to invite you to my club.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 01:02 PM

Pubs almost always have PRS licences, but sometimes only the blanket licence for the Juke box.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 11:58 AM

I assume that Ian is referring to non traditional songs being sung in a folk club.
Do remember that if you have written a song and somebody else performs it you won't collect from PRS unless you are a member and the premises/club has a PRS licence, which in my experience is very unlikely.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Ian
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 11:43 AM

There should also a royalty paid to the performing rights.
For the sonngs / music covered by copyright.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 11:34 AM

Internet defamation is libel.

Tell you what, Abbot, start a rival club and then you'll see.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 11:18 AM

Though I can't name names for legal reasons

Of course you can, Abbot. Unless of course your statements are libelous (or is it slanderous on the internet?). Are you not sure whether what you posted is true or not? In which case why post it as a fact?

Just curious.

DtG

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: GUEST,Abbot
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 11:01 AM

I was just curious, as the club I referred to earlier only have about 3 or 4 paid guests a year. They only pay them £50 or so. They don't pay for the room. They charge £2 + £1 for a raffle. There are usually about 30 people sometimes a lot more. Though I can't name names for legal reasons, I am sure the committee of that club are on a jolly every week. As a member can I ask to see audited accounts?

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: JedMarum
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 10:25 AM

The truth is, as a performer - when I look at a possible venue for booking, if the venue is NOT focused on making moeny I know it is a sign of likely failure. I know that if the venue is not capable of drawing enough of an audience to pay its expenses (as listed above by others) and to pay me - it doesn't matter their intentions or interest in music, the gig will NOT be worthwhile for me financially - and making a living as I do at music, I cannot afford too many financial failures in a year.

I love the venues where the focus of the folks running the place is on the music - but I know if they don;t have enough business savey to keep their venue afloat there's no reason for me to be playing there.

I've never seen anyone get filthy rich from running a folk club. Making a profit for an evening's music event is almost always the way a club generates income to meet its operating costs ... and again, as a performer for these sort of places, I know that if the club's been operating for a while, or if they are willing to offer a reasonable minimum, they probably have enough savey to produce a good concert and gather a good crowd.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: skipy
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 10:09 AM

Hi, Folkiedave, trust me as a festival organised I & my wife are lucky to see any of the performances during our festival, we rarely even have time to enter a session or workshop.
There have been times when an artist has arrived, played, been paid & gone without us even meeting them ( that sounds like piss poor plannig or even "rude" but it's not it is just a fact of life ). That used to happen in the times of Stanford in the vale as we where spread accross the village.
Regards Skipy

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 09:59 AM

It's funny you know but I remember another thread not too long ago where clubs were castigated for not charging enough. Just goes to show, you can't pease everyone, so you've got to please yourself. With apologies to Rick Nelson:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 09:44 AM

Most of our clubs meet in community or neighbourhood centres, not pubs. As we pay rent, naturally we charge for our concerts. My club doesn't have session nights.

Most of these venues demand Public Liability insurance as the ratepayers/Neighbourhood centre committee can't afford potential insurance claims.

Raffles are rare in the clubs I know - the only time I've ever seen one was when I took over the club & needed money for insurance, Bond for the key, purchase of the newly created banner, front of house & supper floats, etc.

My club runs from month to month & performers only get door deals. We don't have a bank account, tho I do keep extra change separately from the floats! I try to cover my phone calls, but don't keep an exact list. When I retire next year I'll really miss my Xerox bonus when I have to pay for my own photocopying! I don't make many posters as most punters use the website or email lists to get info about concerts.

sandra

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: JennyO
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 09:38 AM

I've run a folk club for the last 9 years, and believe me, we don't make a profit. When we first started, I had to pay for the hiring of the space, supper (which we provided), paying the performers, advertising and photocopying flyers. With the help of a raffle as well as the admission, I usually managed to break even, although if the crowd wasn't big, the performers didn't get paid as much. It was always made clear that we could only do a door deal.

Since 2000, we have been lucky to be in a space which was offered to us for free, and which is run like a coffee shop. If their takings are good, everybody benefits.

We nearly always have a guest artist, with the occasional singers' night thrown in, where the admission is less. Nobody seems to mind paying something. The fact is that if I didn't have these sometimes, I would be out of pocket.

On a couple of occasions I have decided to be brave and have a big name overseas artist and an agreed minimum fee. The first time I was burnt badly, and was not keen to take the gamble again. In the last 18 months I have started having occasional special Sunday afternoon concerts in addition to the usual Thursday nights - but always with someone well known and usually from overseas (although not always) that I was pretty sure would draw a good crowd.

I was confident enough with Les Barker to promise a good size minimum fee, and we were not disappointed. The place was packed, Les was handsomely rewarded, and we used some extra money to take him out to dinner afterwards. That was definitely one of our finer moments.

Another great occasion was a few months ago when we had El Greko and Cloudstreet at a Sunday afternnoon concert - not as financially rewarding as the Les Barker one, but we did okay, and of course it was a delightful afternoon!

There have been nights where the turnout has been so poor that I have wondered why we keep going at all, but the good ones come along often enough to make it worthwhile. I have seen people blossom as performers, who originally came along to the club as audience, who then took the first few tentative steps towards performing and gained experience by doing floorspots, eventually gaining the confidence to start performing as solo performers or with a group. I have actually had the pleasure on a few occasions to be able to invite some of these people back as guest performers and pay them! Those kinds of things are the best reward of all! Bugger the money!    I can't believe I said that :-)

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 09:28 AM

I would think that any folk club would have incidental expenses even if they didn't book guest artists (and most do, I think, even if it's just occasionally). There is advertising, the cost of maintaining a website, cost of a room, equipment, phone calls, etc. I find the idea of anybody making a profit off of a folk club hard to fathom, and even if the organizers did make anything it would hardly compensate the time most of them put into it.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 09:09 AM

I do object to pubs charging for rooms.

"You want me to bring in people to your pub and charge me for the privilege"!!

People run folk clubs (and festivals for that matter) so they can guarantee to see the people they like!! Certainly not for money.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 09:09 AM

Amen to all that.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Scrump
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 09:02 AM

Good point about the advertising, Leadfingers. And I guess the organisers should be entitled to claim back the costs of phone calls etc. to booking agents, local press, etc. No reason why they should be out of pocket.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:29 AM

Did you hear about the club organiser who won the jackpot on the lottery ? They asked him what he was going to , and he said "Keep running the club till its all gone!"
A singers club CAN run for nothing IF the club doesnt advertise in the local Folk Magazine , and IF the landlord lets them have space for nothing !
I know of clubs that have been offered use of a room in a pub for ONLY £50 a night !!!

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Scrump
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:28 AM

Some clubs use premises (e.g. a room above a pub) that incur a charge, so they have to cover the cost of that.

But even if they don't have to pay for the premises, other clubs I know will make a small charge (typically a couple of quid IME) on session/singaround nights, to help defray the costs of guest nights. This enables them to have 'bigger name' guests (i.e. better known and more expensive) on guest nights, which they would otherwise be unable to afford. Hiring a big name is a gamble for the organisers, because all sorts of factors can affect attendance, and if they didn't have a rolling cash fund they would make losses and the club would have to close. Most regular attendees at the sessions understand that and are happy to pay for what is after all a small amount for a whole evening's entertainment (even if they are providing it themselves!)

(I guess if a club doesn't ever book guests and only ever has sessions/singarounds, and they don't have to pay any costs for the room, etc., then the question is a valid one. Where does the money go in that case? No idea.)

Many people take for granted the work that goes on behind the scenes at folk clubs, which are (I assume) mostly run by volunteers. Hats off to all club organisers who give up their time for our benefit!

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: BusyBee Paul
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:21 AM

We've just started charging a weekly admission fee or an annual membership which works out cheaper - helps to offset the losses when we put a guest on occasionally. At £1 a time it's not exactly costing anyone a fortune and is in line with most other singer's nights locally.

"Profit" and "Folk Club" just don't seem to go together!.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Rasener
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 06:27 AM

>>I've known clubs build up a reasonable reserve (which I've known be partly spent on bigger name or extra guests, kit, etc.) but never one making profits.<<
spot on Jon

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 06:19 AM

Well not all folk clubs do charge entrance fees...

They need to pay for guests (a club say running a 1 in 4 for example may need income from all 4 nights to pay for the guest night).

They perhaps have other costs, eg. equipment, a charge for the room, etc.

I've known clubs build up a reasonable reserve (which I've known be partly spent on bigger name or extra guests, kit, etc.) but never one making profits.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 06:18 AM

We charge £2.50 on Guest nights. £5 (negotiable!) if it is your first visit but that buys your memebership for subsequent visits as well. It is free on singers nights although if non singers want to contribue they can do so financialy instead:-) Raffle goes round on all occasions.

Why do you assume that all folk clubs are not paying a guest performer?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: GUEST,Abbot
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 06:11 AM

Why do folk clubs charge an entrance fee?

One club that I used to go to charge £2 and then come around selling raffle tickets as well. I can understand this if they are paying for a guest performer, but they're not. Are people making a profit or wot?