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Folk Music and Politics
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: InOBU Date: 24 Mar 00 - 08:00 AM The of course there is the Tom Leher song about Folk music, the verce about the Spanish civil war... they may have won all the battles, but we had all the good songs. No pasaran: Larry |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: zander (inactive) Date: 24 Mar 00 - 03:15 AM Someone once said, ' why does the devil have all the best tunes ' Enough said. Peace and love, Dave |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: JamesJim Date: 24 Mar 00 - 02:41 AM I can't pass this without commenting. We live in a new age where everything is being re-defined. Web access is driving that new age and politics has very little to do with it. We are becoming more aware of our brothers and sisters from all over the world through the internet. It is not a "personal" type of relationship, where we can look each other in the eye, but then, it's more than we've ever had before. It has created and will continue to create an opportunity for all to share in the wealth of the world. If there is a political element to it (and I'm sure there is), perhaps it is the challenge of leaving no one behind. We will all continue to deal with issues at our local level. That is where the music has always come from - those things that effect people in every day life. Much of the music will continue (just like now) to appeal to folks all over the world, because we all deal with similar issues and problems. I've never been to Ireland (sure hope to change that some day) but I can identify with the problems those who live there face. Sure there are stupid agendas of both political elements - Liberals and Conservatives - no matter the country. We have to expose both in our music. There's lot's to write about for those who are talented enough to do so. What a great opportunity! Jim |
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Subject: Lyr Add: THE POOR RICH (Cole Porter) From: High and Lonesome Date: 24 Mar 00 - 02:15 AM Thanks for the advice regarding being high and/or lonesome. But if I'm going to be one, I'll end up being the other, eventually.
A while back, I made an unsuccessful attempt to write a right-wing folks song. Now I've discovered that Cole Porter, of all people, beat me to it, in a song called "THE POOR RICH"
I receive every morning |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: InOBU Date: 22 Mar 00 - 07:58 PM Dear High and Lonesome: The quote you ask after was the motto of the ACLU as opposed to the Lawyers Guild, who bring taste to their choice of whose speach they defend. For any ACLU or NLG members reading this, Sorcha Dorcha also plays at political rallys and law guild gatherings...as well as wakes, and also, High and Lonesome, if you would like to be High and no longer Lonesome, throw a party, and yes, we play parties as well... Larry |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton Date: 22 Mar 00 - 05:43 PM Historically, the folk music boom in the late 1950's can be attributed to the political Left. The Right just wasn't interested. The Kingston Trio made a hit out of a well-known left wing song, The MTA written by Bess Hawes, the sister of Alan Lomax. Many folklorists cut their teeth in the Left wing movement such as Archie Green, Kenny Goldstein and others. The work of Pete Seeger paved the way for the acceptance of traditional folk singers such as Bascom Lamar Lunsford (whether he liked it or not), Leadbelly and countless others. Is folk music inherently political? In my view, all music is political to some extent. It promulgates an idea, a point of view, a way of looking at the world of which one of it's components is political. Whether it's Beethoven's support of a Napoleonic regime or Chopin's Revolutionary Etude or ? it contains some political outlook. Even a so-called non-political stance is a form of political expression if nothing more than a reaction against some fervent position. Can you appreciate folk music on a political level? Why not? And does it have to be limited to politics? Certainly not. But the history of the Folk Revival speaks for itself. It was the Left Wing who supported it originally and enabled it's popularity for better or worse. Frank |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: High and Lonesome Date: 22 Mar 00 - 05:05 PM Who was it that said, "I believe in free speech, and I'll defend to the death your right to say whatever damn fool, ignorant bit of garbage you come up with. I just don't have to listen."
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: Amos Date: 22 Mar 00 - 05:00 PM Well, no-one's gonna marry him after he's defended to the death your right etc. From a little more distance the lives of folk music and politics are intermingled but separate sets of things -- they may coincide in one place and not in another. A |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: InOBU Date: 22 Mar 00 - 04:39 PM And Dave: If the worst does happen, and God willing it will not come to that... my band plays at wakes... your estate can contact us through mudcat. All the best, (and we do weddings also) Larry |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: zander (inactive) Date: 22 Mar 00 - 04:36 PM Thanx for all the wonderful responses to this thread. I may not agree with all that has been said but I will defend to the death your right to say it. peace and love, Dave |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: M. Ted (inactive) Date: 22 Mar 00 - 12:25 AM I agree with Larry on NYC-though Rudy Giuliani is starting to take some of the fun out of it-- As to Tony, I have to say that you have my love, respect, everything, for just saying what you think here--I won't name names, but there are more than a few here who only say things that they know people will agree with--and keep the rest quiet for fear of getting trammelled-- Another thought is that what is a folksinger, or a busker, but an entrepeneur?
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 21 Mar 00 - 11:35 PM Hey there all, and how are all of these opinions stacking up? If we can't hear another's opinions, then we have just taken sides. If we are busking, what do we feel when we have turned someone off with a torrid opinion, or a point of view? Preaching to the converted sure is fun! Getting a point across to someone who didn't share it is meaningful, but if you are trying to make money, well then dont piss off the rich. Duncan and Brady didn't go over well with the sherriff and he stormed out of a show I was playing... and yet I still sing the song. Some times when people take offence, they are moved to understanding something they dont want to face... But don't expect them to thank you right then! Politics and music, are changing the world........ Healing the sad and sick, resisting the plural'd........ Opinions may change, then again maybe not........ Facts have free range, whatever we're taught........ttr |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 21 Mar 00 - 09:17 PM I'm used to George from the folk music newsgroups, and I don't believe that he is ever deliberately hurtful ,though he does sometimes get a bit carried away (don't we all?) - he feels things strongly, as many of us do, but is always ready to apologise if it seems appropriate. I can't help but feel that Anthony's response was a bit over the top; possibly a raw nerve got touched? Malcolm P.S: Sorry for presuming to speak for you, George. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Mar 00 - 08:51 PM "Don't take it so heavy", as Rabbi Lionel Blue likes to say. And I'm thinking of that last response by Anthony Brown. Since he's signed in as a guest, I have to say it in open post, if I'm going to say it at all.
The post by George was critical and cutting, but I don't think it merited that kind of response. There is a fine line in these things. Maybe George stepped over it, Anthony clearly thought he did.
But responding to a hurtful thread by something that is meant to be more hurtful just ends up in flame wars and general unpleasantness. It is perfectly possible to carry on arguments which can be quite heated without going down that road.
"My hide is thick enough to absorb a barb or two in the name of free and open discussion." So it should be. So should all our hides be. And even if the barbs get through and hurt, that's no reason for messing up the Mudhole - "the brand of malicious sewage you spewed at me".
Count to ten - and once again - "Don't take it so heavy!" |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: dick greenhaus Date: 21 Mar 00 - 08:17 PM It strikes me that the hymns which were often parodied to make labor songs are, in their original form, songs of the conservatives. You don't have to be a bloated capitalist to be right-wing. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: High and Lonesome Date: 21 Mar 00 - 07:25 PM Jed Marum: I think Sorcha means John McCutcheon (am I spelling his name correctly), who does, in addition to folk music, a nice job with children's music. If you have a little one, I recommend him (he's got my five year old waltzing around the house singing, "Howdje do de do de doddle do." Anyone who can get the little ones singing Woody Guthrie songs shows that people like me don't need to distinguish betwen folk and children's music. (Though I still do.) As to his "political" music, I'm not as up on it as I should be. I don't think his song about the Rubber Blubber Whale counts, really. And as to whether voting Republican makes you a conservative, given that the current batch of Republicans wants to dramatically change how the government is run, if not shut it down entirely, and a conservative wants to preserve the existing order, I think voting Republican means you are NOT a conservative.
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: InOBU Date: 21 Mar 00 - 07:09 PM Hi Jed: NYC is indeed several other countries. Genie and I feel no culture shock going to Europe, and live in a small bit of Ireland in New York, as one may live in a small bit of any country in New York, even I suppose the rest of the US, if you are invited to diner at the Mayors house. On the other hand, Genie and I, who dress as we did when we lived in Ireland - our first home together, just because that is the way we are comfy, drove my brothers car for him from Texas to New York. We could not get over the fact that we were staired at in every restaurant from Texas, Missisippi, Louisanna (except for New Orleans) well through out the deep south. Could it be because we did not weigh 400 pounds? Dunnoh?! I wasnt even wearing my Breton sabots! Well, I do think this little town of ours is an island of sanity in the shaddow of the megga-consumer, tyranasaurous, Barney, the Purple Dinosaur, who eats children in Asia while danceing with them on TV, and his little mouse, friend, Mickey, who eats up American corporations, eating away the graineries of the American worker, as he sells off the companies assetts, that by the way is part of the old wealth gap in America, the rest of the gap is iether working a McJob at the GAP or in jail. But, keep picking them banjos, that is our common ground... sort of, we use four strings, you guys even add one more string, conspicuous consumption of banjo strings?!:-) See the rest of the world, America, and you will see how we look from over there, but dont stay at the hilton. All the best Larry |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: JedMarum Date: 21 Mar 00 - 05:14 PM interesting series of comments; we're all over the board! Caitrin - I agree with your points, and would go further to say that being (or voting) Republican need not even define one as conservative! and OBU, I missed your comments earlier, and can only say that you seem to confirm what I've heard others say many times; New York City is another country! sorcha - please forgive my ignorance; who is John McCutheon? |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: InOBU Date: 21 Mar 00 - 05:03 PM Hey Tony: Just a small note of support, some of us lefties who spend lots of time with hunter gatherer Natives in Canada, are hunters as well, and I think it is the hieght of ignorant knee jerk reaction thought on the left to be anti hunting. What do the animal rights people suggest we do about deer populations, poison em? Or, how many of them would not talk about thining out the bear population after their kid gets eaten when there are so many hungrey bears that they go from the garbage cans to the nursrey. Hunting is a part of natures plan, and when the lion lies down with the lamb, I will concider melting down the old Moisen Nagat. Not to mention, when the KKK disarms, I will talk about the left feeling warm and fussy about giving up the guns. See, we do have some common ground, old man! Larry |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: GUEST,Publius Date: 21 Mar 00 - 04:46 PM Ah, but Anthony, that's the trouble with you conservative types- you sure can dish it out, but you just can't take it, can you? |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: Caitrin Date: 21 Mar 00 - 04:21 PM Well...my computer's been in the shop, so I wasn't here for the beginning of this thread. Lots of very interesting and thoughtful posts. I don't think folk music necessarily has to be political. Certainly, there's lots of great folk music which is. However, it's not necessary that music (of any kind) be political for it to be truly fine music. As for the whole liberal/conservative issue... Most of the folkies I know tend to the liberal side. I certainly do. I don't, however, think that being a Republican makes one a gun-toting, child-starving, puppy-kicking Nazi. There are reasonable and intelligent people with whom I don't see eye to eye. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: GUEST,Anthony Date: 21 Mar 00 - 03:26 PM Dear GeorgeH, I realize that participating in a forum of this sort leaves one open to all manner of personal attacks. And that's fine, as far as it goes. My hide is thick enough to absorb a barb or two in the name of free and open discussion. But even though the brand of malicious sewage you spewed at me is, as a rule, beneath the dignity of reply, you made one comment that I cannot in good conscience leave unanswered. Yes, George, it is true that I own a firearm -- a rusty old 20-gauge that I bought for $40 one Thanksgiving so I could go quail hunting with my father. I don't even have shells for it anymore, and it hasn't been fired in years. But it's mine, and I treasure it. And I treasure my right to own it and, if necessary, use it in the defense of my home and family as a free citizen living under the U.S. Constitution. Now then, to slyly hint that this somehow makes me a racist is not just bad manners (being a rude, self-righteous prig, after all, is hardly a criminal offense) but quite beyond the framework of commom decency that generally graces the Mudcat forum. Free expression is one thing, but this sort of unproven -- and completely false -- accusation is an especially ugly sort of violence and ought not to be posted. I am sorry and grieved and injured that you feel compelled to give written expression to the same venemous hatred practiced by the bigots you claim to despise. It is obvious to me, and I hope to others, that you are, in fact, cut from the same cloth. Sincerely, Anthony Brown |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: Sorcha Date: 21 Mar 00 - 02:52 PM I can't believe a 60+ post thread on politics and folk music, and I am the first to mention John McCutheon??? |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: JedMarum Date: 21 Mar 00 - 02:34 PM well put Bill D! |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: JedMarum Date: 21 Mar 00 - 02:29 PM zander - maybe people's tastes in music vary and mature. I don't think it's appropriate for people's interest in music to stay within the narrow confines a single idiology. Music should not be so parochial an experience. Beatles have plenty of political commentary in their music ... and much personal/human experience. These are all fair game for folk music tunes, as well. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: Bill D Date: 21 Mar 00 - 02:28 PM ...of course there have ALWAYS been political elements in lots of 'folk' songs!...The difference is in how they are used. Some performers today are very open in their use of music to promote a message..(Terry Leonino & Greg Artzner.."Magpie",Bruce Phillips, even Michael Cooney was pretty heavy at times..[he often preached more than he sang..*grin*])...but others will sing just because it's a good song, just as I know Jewish singers who sing gospel songs because they are taken with the SONGS. As to being left-wing, etc...it is like the discussion of why there are more songs of UN-requited love...those who HAVE all they need are too busy to write songs, and have no need to announce it! |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: zander (inactive) Date: 21 Mar 00 - 02:13 PM The origial thought behind this thread was to stimulate some discussion about ' Folk Song Clubs ' especially in England. I started going to folk clubs in the late sixties, they were vibrant and exiting, very heavily comitted to the left of politics. I have seen in them since a gradual but definate decline into little more than ' pop ' music venues, I have even heard Beatle's songs sung in them and even so called ' Guest ' singers singing Buddy Holly and similar songs. Come on all you organiser's and MC's lets have some answers. Dave |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: JedMarum Date: 21 Mar 00 - 01:56 PM Words of wisdom, Amos. Thanks. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: Rick Fielding Date: 21 Mar 00 - 01:49 PM Bald Eagle. I looked at the way I phrased the "Cutty Wren" thing, and my tone seemed sarcastic. I apologise. That wasn't my intention. I was just in a hurry. Of course there are TONS of political meanings in old folk songs. The level of disguise is directly proportionate to the penalty for "dissing" the higher-ups. One thing will always be fresh in my memory. I've played many times for the "Ladies' Garment Workers Union, and an equal number of times for the Auto Workers Union. The dynamics, attitudes, (and attitude) of the two groups are very different. Perhaps in their infancy they shared many similar goals, but I'd play a thousand times for free for the immigrant women sewing fashions, before I'd play for free to the other group. The songs about "a living wage" really mean something to those women. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: Amos Date: 21 Mar 00 - 12:37 PM In defense of entrepreneurship, I would like to suggest that the true entrepreneur is one who gambles, yes, but on himself. He often places everything he would like to be and have on the table as a stake for what he thinks he can do. When he fails there is no forgiveness, and when he succeeds, he sometimes gets forgotten, or worse, chastised as an evil or greedy opportunist, when he was (from his own lights) just trying to build something that worked in the sometimes crazy marketplace of the world. The reason so many Americans are currently well fed and housed is in large measure an after-effect of these men and women starting a working group, solving tough problems of design, logistics, production, people, market and finance, and pushing the thing ahead from all sides until it began to roll. That is how Hewlett Packard, Microsoft, Hughes, and Time Warner began. These things were built on sweat. Not just the sweat of line workers, but equally the sweat of entrepreneurs who put themselves at risk to make themhappen. If I may get a bit abstract I would suggest that anyone who turns out valuable exchange with the world, whether as a mill operator, a middle manager, or a highlevel executive, deserves a welcome and an acknowledgement for doing so. It is clear as well that the opportunities for corruption are more pronounced at higher levels, because of the power that trades in those circles -- even communists have had to wrestle with that. Individuals do or do not do good work at their various tasks, and the weight of that is what they should be judged on, rather than sweeping categories that repeatedly are used to inaccurately praise or condemn whole classes of people. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: GeorgeH Date: 21 Mar 00 - 12:17 PM Well some of this is all too familiar . . I think it was McGrath who said almost all there is to say on this subject by observing that Folk song is song that has something to say. Which may give you a love song, but also encompases a lot of political output (and OF COURSE any song about a hungry child is political . . .) But someone complained "I find it a little disheartening that, in a lot of circles, folkies who refuse to climb on the liberal bandwagon are somehow stigmatized" - utter bullshit, my friend, I stigmatise ALL non-liberals, regardless as whether they are (clearly non-listening) folkies. This person also said: " . . dozens of old work songs during the 20s and 30s . . . passed on on to me when I was barely big enough to . . " demonstrating his non-listening attachment to Folk, 'cause if work songs of the 20s and 30s aren't political then I'm a Pinochet supporter. I'm not going to waste time arguing that this individual is an archtype of the upper class exploiter (whatever class he claims to belong to), but I will indicate the way his post - to me at least - illustrates the opposite of what he claims. For when he says there's an "institutionalized notion in folky circles that all pain and suffering is somehow either 'the guv'ment's fault' or promulgated by evil corporate types . ." he misrepresents "folk circles" to his own ends. Sure, some folk songs - justly - criticise governments, corporations and those who put money before humanity. A few criticise unjustly. But most don't even touch on such matters (I'd guess broken hearts are the most common suffering in Folk songs . . ) And I'll skip his ignorant (in the literal sense) defamation of the Green Party in his rush to defend the "If it moves shoot it (especially if it's black" lobby (OK, I have a jaundiced view of the US right). And while there's a certain irony in his describing the sentiments of "Who's Side are You On" and "Talking Union Blues," as "outdated" in a post which, taken as a whole, illustrates exactly why those songs have such a contemporary resonance, what really sticks in my throat is his lofty suggestion that we should "celebrate instead the virtues of hard work, self-reliance . . ". As I've noted, he can't have been listening to those folk and work songs, if he's not noticed any celebration of those virtues . . "We lived upon nettles When nettles were good And Waterloo porridge was the best of our food . . " THAT's self-reliance. Not whinging at the prospect of having to pay a little more tax, out of your excessive income, in order to help those less fortunate than yourself. (As for celebrating "entrepreneurship" - that's rather like celbrating gamblers, which Folk does pretty often!) He seems to believe one can appreciate folk music in isolation from the folk who created it and the circumstances of their existence; to me that's blatent hypocrasy. He then says: " Anyone see the flaw in that logic? I do, and it is embodied in this cold truth:" PARDON? You see the flaw in your own logic? Except, of course, the "cold truth" (or, more accurately, conservative cliche) which followed had absolutely nothing to do with the logic of what had preceded it (or any other discernable logic, except that perversion of logic which passes for right wing self-justification). And someone then complemented this individual on a well-argued article. G. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: Jeri Date: 21 Mar 00 - 11:06 AM Are not the Robin Hood ballads about a bunch of renegade communists re-distributing wealth from the capitalist of yester-year back to the working class? A lot of songs about poachers have the same sort of message. Jacobite songs? There are many songs writen with wars or battles as a subject - these aren't political? "Hard Times of Old England?" (I don't know how old that is.) It wasn't always easy to criticize one's own government, and the songs probably had to be disguised so anyone who either didn't understand, or didn't want to understand would miss the political message. So basically, if you don't want to see it, it's not there. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: Ringer Date: 21 Mar 00 - 09:58 AM Here again, Rick, rather than still here. Yes, I know The Cutty Wren and I know it's supposed to be "political" (after all, it's been included on an Ian Campbell Group EP entitled "Songs of Protest", hasn't it? Might have the title slightly wrong there, but not the tone of the title) but I'm folked if I can see anything political in it, even after all these years. So it's not political (imo), but it isfolk. I have to say that my first posting was, of course, not meant to be taken absolutely literally... I'm sure that, if I gave enough time to it, I could come up with a folk song that was political, but they're few & far between. Maybe Poverty Knock? Not even sure about that. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: GUEST,Anthony Date: 21 Mar 00 - 09:24 AM I love Pete and Lee and Woody. I really do. And I think Tom Paxton is SO cool that I play one of his songs almost every time I pick up a guitar. But of course I don't respect myself in the morning. You Mudcatters are great, and I love you all, especially Bert and Larry. Let's find a nice warm tavern one of these days, break out some wonderful old pre-war Martins (paid for with filthy capitalist dollars minted across the broken backs of the oppressed masses) and hash all this out. First round's on me! TONY |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: Whistle Stop Date: 21 Mar 00 - 08:36 AM Live and let live, gang. Some of us will sing left-wing political songs, some of us will sing right-wing political songs (if we can find any besides the Ballad of the Green Berets), and some of us will sing songs that don't sound overtly political at all. There's room for all if it. Kind of like talking -- in the world that I prefer to live in, we don't tell people that they're allowed to talk about certain subjects but not others. Music is communication -- the more free and open, the better. M.Ted, I will have to give Sammy Davis another listen. I was born in the 1950s, and by the time I discovered who Sammy was, he was (a) embarrassing himself with his low-life Rat Pack buddies, (b) guest-starring on forgettable cop shows, situation comedies, and Bob Hope specials, and (c) singing "Candyman" (not the Mississippi John Hurt version, either) on Ed Sullivan, between the Lennon Sisters and the dancing bears. So maybe there was some real artistry beneath the surface there, but it sure wasn't readily apparent. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: Lady McMoo Date: 21 Mar 00 - 08:32 AM A lot of my favourite folk songs are political in nature and I markedly use political with a small "P" here. Political needn't necessarily mean leftist in this context (although I would probably be considered somewhat left of centre myself) although it does invariably mean challenging the status quo or "mainstream" or "corporate" thinking in some way. All the best mcmoo |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: JedMarum Date: 21 Mar 00 - 08:25 AM point taken, Malcolm. I live in Dallas, Texas, which may be booming a bit more then other parts of the US, but I travel a bit - and see similar growth throughout the country. And yes I did mean disposable income. Blue Jay - you are right on! I feel very much like you do, no matter what side of a political arguement I land on. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: InOBU Date: 21 Mar 00 - 08:16 AM Well Malcom: How bout a report from the US from another America than Jed lives in... and Jed, there is more to success than the obvious bottom line... First and formost, the standard of living in the United States exists because we are consuming 70% of the worlds resources here. Not a very good idea for the promotion of world peace and the hope that children in the third world will have a fullfilling life, eh? Secondly, here in New York, not only are we lagging behind the roaring US ecconomy, but in order to keep the impression that things are good, our mayor who gets mad if you call him a facist, has had the police round up homeless people by giving them summons for public drinking or any other small enfraciton caused by their hopeless situation, when they dont show up in court, they get sent to rikers island, where the prisson is growing so fast they are not housing people in inflateable buildings and on decomissioned Staten Island Ferryboats. We now, in the US in general, have more people (proportionally) in jail than any society in the reorded history of humanity. Add to this the mental institutions, and the fastest growing industry in the US, today, is incarceration. Now, I am reminded of an old movie title from England, Im alright blow you jack. It seems to me this is not a very Christian way to run a nation, especially one where the right wing claim to be the only Christians on the whole planit. Terry, as for - May the Lord preserve us from the stereotypical, introspective left-wing folkie who spurns good music if it doesn't carry the correct political message. - No one is advocating censoring the right wing, as they sing such as I am a good old reble or other songs which are not poliitical when they advocate buring the Consitution, but we are saying, that folk music, as music of the people, will always be poliitcal, which is why, as the American working class gets more and more brain washed by those who own them, they will sing more songs about fear of minorities, and think of themselves as non-political...
as for Terrys - Let's keep politics out of it. - Again, sing what ever you like, but dont expect us to take the politic out of what has always been a political forum, I for one as an American performer, will not contribute to the dumbing down of the American worker. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: Terry K Date: 21 Mar 00 - 01:53 AM Well said BlueJay!! May the Lord preserve us from the stereotypical, introspective left-wing folkie who spurns good music if it doesn't carry the correct political message. Let's keep politics out of it. (In anticipation of a deluge of hate-postings!!!) |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: BlueJay Date: 21 Mar 00 - 01:24 AM When i play with folks, I really dont give a damn what their political affiliation is. One of my best friends is really conservative, and he knows that I am fairly liberal. IT IS THE MUSIC WHICH IS IMPORTANT. True, it is a specialized relationship, but I really miss him, as he has gone to Catholic Seminary. Also, I'm not Catholic. But on the few occasions we can get together, we have much fun trading on guitar, mandolin and bass. We play all sorts of stuff. Hell, I'd play "Pat Buchanan is the Greatest Man Alive", if it had a catchy tune. And my friend, Don Malin, wouldn't shy away from "Vietnam Potluck Blues", and I know he'd find "Tape From California" musically intriguing. I guess this has as much to do with friendship as anything. But it's mostly making music. We've written some ridiculous songs, totally apolitical. I think that a large percentage of folk music is apolitical, dealing with everything from love to chickens to machinery, (The Gudgeon of Maurice's Car)". Play on, and SMILE! |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 20 Mar 00 - 11:19 PM Jed: As I said, I can only comment on the situation in the UK, and my comments related to that only. I am sure that you are indeed very much aware of the situation in your community, though since you don't say where it is (the USA is quite large, after all) I obviously can't tell how my point of view might agree or disagree with your own experience. I wasn't, incidentally, talking about discretionary (I assume that by that you mean what we call "disposable") income, but about the gap between rich and poor: not at all the same thing. I doubt if people living on the street in America feel much better off than do homeless people here. Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: JedMarum Date: 20 Mar 00 - 10:45 PM ... well Malcolm, I cannot address the gap you have seen in the UK I know when I worked there it was obvious to me that Americans (even low income Americans) had a lot more discretionary income. There are few Americans who do not report being much better off these days then they were 10 years ago. I am very aware much aware of the econmic conditons of the community in which I live, your assertion that those disagree with your point-of-view not withstanding. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: M. Ted (inactive) Date: 20 Mar 00 - 10:32 PM Ya gotta love Larry!!!-- |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 20 Mar 00 - 08:18 PM Larry's post is pretty well unanswerable, isn't it? Kara (05:09 PM) and "High and Lonesome" have about said the rest. Most of the discussion has been about America, and I can't comment on that with any real knowledge; I do know how things have been in the UK, though, and anybody who doesn't understand that the gap between Rich and Poor has grown frighteningly in the last 20 years is, frankly, living with their head up their arse. Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: InOBU Date: 20 Mar 00 - 07:28 PM Man oh MAN! This is getting fun, iznt!? First of all, TONY! No real leftist is gonna get mad at you, in my estimation, cause you make your points well and without personal invective. I bet you and I and a couple of my lefty worker pals from Belfast and New York would have a great time in a pub, and though we would disagree on lots, like the governments obligation to return to workers, through taxation enough of what is taken by their bosses, that, when the steel industry becomes the steal industry and robbs America of its ability to make steel, workers should have help from the government to buy and work the means of productions they built and compete with the Korean steel their former bosses are not shoveing down our throats if not up another hole - (sorry I get a bit carried away guys) But, I can tell the way you write, your are one of us, you are a worker. Unlike the post which accused some of us of learning our music from hippies etc. I went to work at 11 and went to sea at 16. I learned about music from my dad, who went down in the coal mines at 13 and worked until he could no longer stand on his feet. Thats where my music comes from, and with great love and respect for our brother, Jed, (Hey, Brother, I liked it when you where Liam - Good name!) that bumber sticker does not say much to me, when it says keep your politics out of my music. When, as a busker, I see a fellow working on the streets like me, Amadou, getting shot dead in a hail of bullits, and then, just last night, the same damn thing happens again, and the Mayor of New York, tries to paint a good man, who died when he thought he was resisting an agressive drug dealer, who turned out to be shoving an undercover drug cop, well, in the tradition of my dad, the only thing this poor worker can do is sing about it. And yes Tony VOTE, God bless you brother, even though we vote on different tickets. InOBU Larry |
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Subject: Lyr Add: A CONSERVATIVE'S LAMENT From: GUEST,High and Lonesome Date: 20 Mar 00 - 07:22 PM Here's my suggestion for a right-wing folk song:
A CONSERVATIVE'S LAMENT
I woke up one morning not long ago
CHORUS: But life's a bitch when you're rich
I fired my housekeeper yesterday CHORUS
I laid off all our company's workers CHORUS
I used to worry about the poor |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: M. Ted (inactive) Date: 20 Mar 00 - 06:42 PM Whistlestop, whether you liked him or not, Sammy Davis, Jr. was one of the all-time greatest entertainersin the last couple of years a lot of his best stuff has been released on CD and, is especially worth listening to..He had a very rare knack of making every song sound like it was his best song,,, Kara, you can tell a good story about any subject..
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: dick greenhaus Date: 20 Mar 00 - 06:30 PM Folk songs became political because singers--and collectors--were and are political. In the early 1900s, Henry Ford was sponsoring American song and dance collection and presentation as an affirmation of Middle class Middle West values; the early ballad collectors were preaching the WASP origins of American folk culture; the Communists in the 40s were busy selecting and creating "People's" songs and so on. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Mar 00 - 06:20 PM "Furthermore, if you want to change the world, you have to deal with the world first.
When I'm singing a song, I'm not trying to change the words, any more or less than when I'm talking.It's the same person when I'm talking or singing, the same politics, the same concerns.
I might be hoping to encourage people who think the same way I do, I might be hoping to let some people who don't think the same way I do understand my views understand them a bit better.
Sometimes singing might feed into something else, like a march or a demonstration or as picket. The same way carrying a banner might be. The songs are going to reflect the politics of the occasion. Orange marches have banners too, and songs and folk music. They aren't the kind of songs I sing or the kind of marches I go on.
What I'm getting at, singing songs and playing music isn't something added on to a human being, and nor are the important things that get called "political" (as opposed to what fat cat clamberfs there way onto the gravy train), they are both as natural as breathing.
One more point - the kind of things that get labelled as "leftist and "political" are often things which not really anything of the kind. Politics should be about things like how society is organised, how taxes are levied and paid, what things need to be arranged collectively, and how people can make sure they are run well and fairly. There's a lot of room for disagreement over these things. But is being opposed to racism "politics"? Is being angry when police whom we employ misuse their power, and then cover up for each other "politics"? Resisting injustice and oppression is more basic than politics. So is making a judgement about moral issues like war and killing, and standing up for it - and on all those things yiou will find people who are "left wing" and "right wing" side by side. Probably singing "We shall overcome" at one time, maybe something else now. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and Politics From: Kara Date: 20 Mar 00 - 06:04 PM But are art grants and Tax cuts the sort of things you want to write songs about? |
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