Celebrate 'Folk'

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 07:24 PM

I wish I felt that way about it George. I might make a mess of it but I'll try to explain my comment.

If I was to rephrase one of HD's comment as:

"There are an awful lot of people that would be happy to keep it marginalised but I know that they don't mind it growing either."

I have a statement I agree with.

I can't think of anyone I know who objects to the idea of folk becoming more popular but I know a few (and count me in) who are quite happy with their own "folk worlds". As an example I'd love everyone to find the joys of participating in sessions as I do to but it's not going to break my heart if it remains a minority interest.

My difficulty comes in when people attach motives to the comments of others, and these motives currently appear to me at worst to include irrational dislikes of popularity.

Up to a point. I can perhaps see Colin's point about "purity" but not because of popularity. A problem I have with some material is that the only way I might become aware falls into the "folk" category is because I read someone calls it "folk". That can and will go on as "folk" and any "horses" are long bolted but,personally, I prefer to be doing the stuff that I can connect with the material I've learned and enjoy. So yes in that respect I'd rather be marginalised than popular and I can be.

Matters do seem to me to go further than that though. At one time it did seem to me to be fashionable to dislike the Dubliners, etc. but it felt to me (if I can phrase this in any way) more because they were "common", in a way rather than successful.

I'm actually "guilty" of loving the Dubliners, The Corries, The Clancey Brothers and Tommy Makem and The Spinners, surely some of the most popular folk groups, yet I can still find myself "against an artist for being too popular" if I dare say something along the lines of "I wouldn't call this folk", or even, if it's a major artist "I simply don't like it".

I may be a touch paraniod on this but I feel the more groups are "championed" by "folk media" and awards are promoted, the harder it is going to be to express ones own feelings without reading somewhere why we (of course wrongly for some reason we ourselves don't know) think what we think.

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 03:34 PM

No worries, Houston, I know your heart is in the right place!
Jon, all that says to me is "different strokes for different folks". You know, "potayto-potahto". And so it goes, indeed; I think it's great that we don't all agree on everything, it would be boring.

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 02:43 PM

I really dont understand?!?

I said "I agree with you in everything you said Colin, there are an awful lot of people that would be happy to keep it exclusive but I know that they don't mind it growing either."

In other words, spot on Colin, a lot of people would like it to be marginalized!

What's the problem?

I know syntax isn't my strong point and perhaps that is making the semantics of my sentences difficult to understand but I'm agreeing with everyone?!?

I will try my best to be there Monday George, the little one and the gf make it difficult :s

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 02:29 PM

It's something I've read suggested about others but my observation of the current trend runs like this.

If someone finds a folk song that is popular sounds like a pop song or find it bland and say so, they will find others say it is because they dislike the idea of folk (or folk artists) being popular.

If someone says they don't really think a popular artist represents the best they have heard in folk, they will find others say it is because they dislike the idea of folk (or folk artists) being popular.

And so it goes on.

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 02:29 PM

There's enough, Houston - exclusive means absolutely no trespassers. Anyway, Colins use of the word was spot on from his perspective, and the perspective of several others. No need to call him out for it, I think.

Singers' night, Monday!

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 02:24 PM

Marginalize is to apply limits - exclusive is to make it limited not that much difference!!!

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: Def Shepard
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 02:13 PM

The word Colin used was marginalised not exclusive and there's a bloody big difference in the meaning of thos words.

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 02:13 PM

PS I love the article btw.

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 02:07 PM

To go back about the hurricane at Towersey I remembered earlier... it was 1986 not 1985 and it was called hurricane Charley.

I was 13 and it was the oddest experience I can remember at a festival. All the tents except a few had been blown down and all the marquees had been blown down too, it was eerily quiet. My dad took us over to Johnny's unit where he was with his son with a huge pot of chilli, it tasted so nice :D

After that I think I could put up with any weather at festivals and I have got soaked at most of em lol.

Good songs, tunes, company and beer make up a part of the greatness of folk whether at a club or festival.

I have had years at Sidmouth and Towersey where the festival only took place on one site and even though it was a nice and pleasant environment plus the feeling of exclusivity I am happy to see it the festivals expand. There is so much talent to be had and folk is a huge genre with enough material to go round.

I agree with you in everything you said Colin, there are an awful lot of people that would be happy to keep it exclusive but I know that they don't mind it growing either. Keeping up a tradition is what makes folk so great because you can't recreate the feelings of live music no matter how great the sound system... it's the atmosphere that makes it great. :)

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 01:58 PM

Colin R, great writing!

If you aren't able to repost the entire article, would you please excerpt some of it for the sake of future readers of this thread?

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: Def Shepard
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 01:24 PM

Nothing to "here we go again" about, Colin R is simply making an observation, and very good one at that.

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 12:30 PM

I also recognise that lots of people who like the music are quite happy for it to remain marginalised, as if too much popularity equals unwelcome impurity.

Here we go again...

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 12:24 PM

Echo that - cracking article, Colin, and the personal honesty especially engaging.

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: Def Shepard
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 12:18 PM

Colin, massive thanks for that really great article. As it happens my daufghter and I performed Sound of Silence, last year, at a gig, just to do something different. After we'd finished the set, two young people came up to us and asked if Paul Simon was a new singer/composer? I mean what could I say? I simply directed them to their local record shop. :-D

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 12:12 PM

Colin, you rascal, you had me giggling uncontrollably (and to my team, inexplicably) at work, with your "Burglars have ignored my record collection" line...

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: Colin Randall
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 11:26 AM

Overlooking the occasional spat, the core of this thread strikes a particular chord with me, since I have spent much of my career in newspapers trying to persuade editors to use reviews, previews and features about folk. (I have just succeeded in getting my new employers in Abu Dhabi to run a whole page on what is folk, and which performers I recommend, on the flimsy basis of a Paul Simon CD review.
Read it here if you're interested

But over the years, I have endured daughters on car journeys exclaiming: "Oh no, not dad's diddly-dee music again." Colleagues and friends have sneered at my tastes. Burglars have ignored my record collection. I also recognise that lots of people who like the music are quite happy for it to remain marginalised, as if too much popularity equals unwelcome impurity. I have certainly been guilty of such feelings myself, but 40 years after attending a folk club for the first time, there is no other music I'd rather listen to or write about.

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 11:21 AM

same here... they're quality :D

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 10:54 AM

When I first stumbled on The Imagined Village on You-tube while looking for Eliza Carthy videos I was stunned. I hope they do more stuff.

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 10:12 AM

When You're Falling video on youtube

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 10:08 AM

Sorry, "When You're Falling" silly me... I have the DVD video of that track... pretty mental... the guy just keeps on falling non stop.

I love Afrocelts even the remix stuff absolute quality. Thanks for that Neil, am gonna have to get The Imagined Village album now :s (I'll have to wait till I have £10 :( )

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 10:02 AM

Yes indeed HD that is Eliza's beautiful backing vocal on the Tam Lyn Retold track. It's her playing fiddle as well. And yes Peter Gabriel does do some songs with Afro Celt Sound System, whose Simon Emmerson was instrumental in getting The Imagined Village project together. "When You're Falling" is one of my favorite songs. I have an MP3 player loaded up with a lot of ACSS and Dohl Foundation (as well as Boozoo Chavis, Clifton Chenier, Buena Vista Social Club, new swing, etc.). All up tempo stuff for walking. When that song comes on I find myself getting odd looks from other towpath travellers because I'm belting out the chorus at the top of my lungs. That's the problem with ear buds, I can't hear how badly I sing. :^).
   I've been intrigued by ACSS for several years now. I read somewhere that nearly all American Musical forms originate out of a blending of West African rhythms and the melodies and narrative aspects of the music of Ireland, Scotland and England. Afro Celt and now The imagined Village seem like they are blending these same ingredients with entirely fresh and refreshing results.
   That is why I celebrate 'Folk'. It's roots go back to the beginning of humanity, to the lullabies Mothers soothed their babes to sleep with and the hunting songs of our ancestors. And yet it can be open as well to fresh new interpretations and multi-cultural influences. It tells the story of folk in a way that all the history books can never quite capture.
   Azizi, thanks for the You-Tube links. Of course I have seen "Yes We Can" video before but the other one was a new one on me.
                                              Neil

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 09:53 AM

I was pushed in the stream at the 3 horseshoes when I was around 11 and cut my hand open (cos health and safety wasn't that bigger thing back in the day). This guy who drove this weird jeep drove me back to the campsite (there was only one back then) where the St. Johns sewed me up... I was back down the pub ½hour later.

I've seen a lot of folkies asleep in that ditch over the years lol ;)

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 09:49 AM

OMG... didn't realise Tanners Hatch was still was going :s

http://www.tannersmusic.co.uk/

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: GUEST,dillie the oast ouse opper
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 09:44 AM

I fell in the stream (if thats what you could call it) at the three horsehoes at towersey twice in the space of an hour aged about 7, and then my dad got really angry.

later that afternoon, after one (or should that be eight) too many, he himself fell in the ditch walking back to the campsite. My mum gave me permission to tell him off!!!

he he :0)

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 09:40 AM

I kinda thought the video was more like Radioheads - No Surprises @ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqsyXdj_p_I

I recognise the name Stanford in the Vale but I was shipped to so many festivals when I was growing up... I remember one in the woods somewhere called Tanners Hatch festival... that was funny because me and a friend (can't remember who it was now) walked of, found a pub, had a load to drink, got lost on the way back and when we got back they'd sent a search party out for us... I think I was only around 12 lol

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: GUEST,dillie the oast ouse opper
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 09:23 AM

Ah yes...johnny collin's food was always top notch....my dad loves the chilli at the vegetarian tent too, he went there for tacos once with his best mate dave and my mum wouldnt let him sleep in the tent! ha ha!!
He was flammable!

I started going to Towersey in 86....and stanford in the vale (does anyone remember that festival? does it still run??)
I got stuck in a stile in a field there once trying to escape from the labrador that was bigger than I was....I was bout 6 i think!

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 09:20 AM

it was a question Azizi;

I went to http://imaginedvillage.com/ and it has Eliza as one of the artists and it sounds a lot like her :D

Nice one Dillie... dunno about Chez Nous food though... not my sort of thing but then I was brought up in the day that Johnnie Collins used to make the food and his Chilli con Carne was out of this world (Especially after the hurricane of Towersey in 85... think it was called Charley?!?)

:D

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: GUEST,dillie the oast ouse opper
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 08:43 AM

Folk to me, is everything, it's how my mum and step dad met when I was three. he moved in when i was 4, and has stuck about ever since (21 years in fact - and counting....)
My parents met through the morris side my dad had founded and my mum subsequently became a musician and dancer of...i've been dancing sine I was three. The thought of not having something so major like Folk and festivals (especially towersey)and the morris in my life and not having had it as a large part of my childhood/early adulthood doesn't bear thinking about.
there would have been no:
1) going on a bear hunt with geoff higgingbottom aged three
2) getting toffee apple and ice cream all over my morris kit (and quite a bit of beer since then!)
3) No meeting up with people at festivals year in, year out, having no clue of what they did for a living, where they lived, but knowing they sang that amazing song, or played the melodeon so well etc etc
4) no chez nous noodles. (and that would be bad)
5) no waking up in tents, cold, damp but totally happy that you had to now go and queue for the shower in a field full of sheep poo.
6) no amazing concerts (demon barbers at Towersey, Eliza, Bellowhead at Broadstairs
7) listening to Johnny Silvo records and dancing to morris on around the front room with my dad and brother
8) whiling away evenings in music sessions and dancing at beautiful locations around the country when my peers were on street corners drinking white lightning and getting ASBOs, or watching eastenders with a meal of turkey twizzlers in front of them.


I could go on and on and on, but I just wanted to say that in light of all the negativity around young people and folk and everything that has happened on this forum recently. Folk for me, is home. It is everything. And people young and old feel that way, and always will, it permeates lives, and as such will long remain a living tradition long after the Jay-Z's and Linkin Parks of this world are confined to pop history. Simple as that really.

Charlotte (Dillie) xxxx

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 08:32 AM

Neil D, thanks for posting that YouTube video link. I found it both aurally and visually powerful.

Here's the summary that was posted by the video's featured poet
BenjaminZephaniah:

"A re-telling of the traditional folk tale Tam Lyn. Part of a project with Peter Gabriel called The Imagined Village."

-snip-

I'm not sure if Houston_Diamond was stating a fact or a question-is that Eliza Carthy singing on that video?

**

Btw, that BenjaminZephaniah video reminded me of will. i. am's Yes We Can video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yq0tMYPDJQ
and of Election08's video of Senator John McCain's words: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gwqEneBKUs&feature=related john.he.is.

I think that it's great that contemporary folk artists
see value in both traditional and contemporary production techniques & material.

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 06:29 AM

My first experience of Flight of the Conchords was a CD about their tour of England, heard it for the first time last weekend. It is pure gold!

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 06:19 AM

Neil... that has Eliza Carthy singing on that track eh?

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 06:12 AM

lol... Cheers Soldier Boy :D

I think folk is the most diverse genre on the planet and crosses over to so many genres. In fact almost every genre on the planet has roots to folk music.

I really think that reggae songs have a very close relation with traditional folk songs such as Peter Tosh performing 'Stop the Train' and Marley, Tosh and Wailer performing 'Keep on Moving'.

But that's just my opinion :)

Thanks for that Neil... that's quality, Peter Gabriel loves folk - he sings on the 'Rise Above' and 'When I'm Falling' tracks with Afrocelts doesn't he?

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: Neil D
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 11:27 PM

Thanks for the link to Flight of the Conchords Houston Diamond. Those guys are great, "The Top Folk Parodists in all of New Zealand". "Jenny" and "Issues" are also gems.
   Now here is some real Folk/Rap:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bIvFg5fXUM

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: Soldier boy
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 08:58 PM

Tush tush and good grief charlie Brown!
Lots of quick -fire and shooting off at the hip here.
Me thinks too much mental sparring and not enough heart searching about what 'Folk' really means to you.
You are not required to sample all the goodies at the buffet ( thanks Ron) and if you did you would probably be sick.
Horses for courses/ different strokes for different folks - it all means the same to me.
At the end of the day we are all different with hugely different tastes and the 'roots of 'folk' are so diverse that you will never get a consensus of opinion. Never.
So let's just agree to disagree.
And does it really matter if people posting here are Guests or Members? Surely not. We are all equal aren't we? And we enjoy(Thank God) the freedom of speech. This is not some kind of elite private members club.
Nuff said.

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 08:47 PM

Houston_Diamond, my apologies for not recognizing your name since I arrived at Mudcat about the same time that you did.

I was being facetious when I said "I'm a good girl". I should have said I'm a good woman.

:o)

I don't understand or agree with all you said, but I'm alright with that. And that's as philosophical as I'm gonna get tonight.

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 08:02 PM

i've followed and been on here on and off for 3 years so not that new and 25 years of playing with computers, networks and the such like kinda makes me an old hat at this.

I know what you are saying but in all fairness anyone can pose as someone else and it's really easy for anyone and I mean anyone to come on these forums and just be a nuisance as a GUEST can be anyone.

I have also been in the folk world since year dot and know a large quantity of people on here... I don't piss in pools cos I dont like it, I equally dislike other people pissing in the pool and causing others discomfort.

I get what you are saying but my sister came on yesterday and no-one knew it was her... she told me how she tried to resist shit stirring and when you see what happened you can see how easy it is to upset people.

I never use a pseudo name cos I am happy with who I am and am prepared to apologise... and anyway I like my name :D

I am learning all the time but I also teach...

I care about everyone here and if I ask people to take caution it's because I care... I know you are a nice girl and I want to keep it that way... do you get what I'm trying to say?

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 07:49 PM

Not to mention that everyone posting as a guests isn't always a guest.

Though that practice is very much discouraged except when it's not-sometimes a Mudcat member might temporarily adopt another name for a witty word plays like I think was the case with Guest LeBron, or when Mudcatters like Little Hawk have developed fictitious characters or when a member has a sensitive personal issue that he or she wants to raise...

Btw, Houston_Diamond, my assumption is that you're new around these parts-is that right>

If so, welcome! Share! Learn! Enjoy! And don't piss in the pool-and if you do, clean up after yourself.

Someone else made up that "Don't pip" saying up-I added that end part. I usually don't talk like that-since I'm such a good girl :o) But I think you get what I'm trying to say...

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 07:40 PM

Houston_Diamond, I've read {what I consider to be} interesting,
profound comments from Mudcat guests, and {what I consider to be} not so interesting, off-the-deep-end comments from Mudcat members [and vice versa].

But if you wanna ignore posts from guests, that's your choice.

As we say where I come from, "Different strokes for different folks."

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 07:25 PM

Azizi - I'm starting to get to a point where I completely ignore posts from GUEST because it really could be anyone.

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 07:22 PM

'horses for courses' is a saying http://www.google.com/

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 07:22 PM

Stringsinger, I want to commend you on your well written post [18 Jun 08 - 06:38 PM], particularly your third paragraph. It will come as no suprise to you that I agree with everything you said. But you said it much better than I would have.

**

By the way, I wonder who GUEST,LeBron really is.

Whoever he {or she} is, mad props!

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 07:07 PM

It's racing term for horses prefer to race on certain racecourses :D

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:58 PM

Only if I can uses horses for courses. Of course, you will need to explain what that means!

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:53 PM

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko - PM
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 04:56 PM

I hope you don't think that I was the one being rude. In response to Def Shepard's question about hip hop, I replied that there is a folk connection. Def apparently does not care for the style, and there is no requirement that he should need to. We all have opinions and they are to be respected.

I dont think you were being rude at all... in fact there were a lot of people that I feel were being rude on the other thread and the post:-


Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko - PM
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 04:42 PM

When you go to a buffet, you are not required to sample all the goodies.


Was pure genius :D well it beats horses for courses... can I use that Ron?

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:38 PM

Hip Hop carries interesting roots in the African-American community. It can be argued
that culturally there may be a connection to the role of the Griot of Africa, a journalist of sorts that carried the story of tribal lineage and reported on current events. That's folk enough for me.

I attribute the rise of Hip Hop to Fela "Anikapalu" Kouti who rapped about the political
conditions of the world. He was persona non grata in his country. His home was burned
and he was vilified for his political songs and raps. (A Victor Jara.)

I celebrate all kinds of folk music from everywhere and refuse to be drawn into a folksnob
discussion of what it is and isn't. Rap has been commercialized but so has country music
and "Mighty Wind" music as well. I celebrate the songs from the people who are under the radar and are known in their community but don't reach the media.

Stringsinger

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 05:15 PM

Speaking of profound, if not lost, when I read the list of available above the line discussions this evening, I noticed that there's a lot of threads that have to do with bodies of water or sailing.

Here's a partial listing-with some judicious placement of titles:

Beware the Fylde Coast's Sands 4 July Fltwood FC

Origins: Down by the Banks of the Hanky Panky

Mystic Seaport Sea Music Festival 2008

Sea songs for children

Folklore: Shanteying On Military Ships

Lyr/Chords Req: Drifting Too Far From Shore

Lyr Req: Dan Milner's Row Bullies Row

Lyr Add: Every Good Ship Has a Mainmast (chantey)

Tune Req: Take It Down From the Mast

Lyr Req: We're in the Same Boat, Brother

**

[Also, "We're in the Same Boat, Sister", though that's not the actual title of the song].

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 05:02 PM

My apologies - it must be the lighting :)

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: Def Shepard
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 05:01 PM

He, now there's an assumption that went wildly off target ...try she..and I'm older than the first fog.

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 05:01 PM

Def - I sincerely respect that hip hop is not your cup of tea. I'm not a fan either. All I was trying to do was answer your question about the connection.

Subject: RE: Celebrate 'Folk'
From: Def Shepard
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 04:59 PM

Now, now, don't get you knickers in a knot, all i said was hip hop is not my cup of tea...oh, but wait this is Mudcat, I should have expected the brilliant come backs :-D