Different types of contemporary folk

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 11:11 AM

"You have misconstrued almost everything I've said here, probably because you didn't read it properly.
Y"
No I havcen't and I've answered every point you made
The onl irrationality here is from those arguing for folk clubs that don't do folk song
No we can't get away from Ewan MacColl - you were quite happy to discuss him when you were taking swings at him You want to list the questions I've avoided or misconstrued - fee free and I'll do my best, but please sttop telling me what I can and can't post - that's the behaviour of one of those "folk policemen" everybody keeps talking about

"As I made clear three days back I DO HAVE THE PUBLICATION. It is here on my shelves."
Then why don't you identify it ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: GUEST,the other Jim
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 10:54 AM

You have misconstrued almost everything I've said here, probably because you didn't read it properly.
You've answered questions which were never asked, ignored all the ones which were and avoided all efforts to instil some rationality to this discussion, so I can see little point in continuing it... maybe others can now get back to the world outside Ewan MacColl.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 10:06 AM

"HERS- an important distinction which you should have made."
Don't be silly Guest - nobody suggested it was anything but a traditional song
Desperation disguised as pedantry creeps in, I think
"that's the implication there....oh dear"
Wgo said that - I saidf it had no place in a folk club - you put the value judgement on it - oh dear indeed
You assume MacColl didn't sing Little Chance because he couldn't manage the accent - do you know that
In fact he did a pretty good Geordie accent from his stage days - he tended not to sing accents other than those he felt comfortable in culturally
"it featured songs from various source singers of NE Scotland & would have been much more valuable if EM had issued the originals rather than his own inferior versions. "
What on earth are you talking about - the Elliots of Birtley was a survey of the songs and lore of the Elliot Family - I should go and tell their grandchildren that their songs were inferior
Typos again - I would have thought my to was fairly obvious folkie boys in blue was what I should have written
Try thinking outside the box - none of us are skilled writers
Have you anything important to say ?
Jim

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 09:05 AM

Isla C may have sung the song but it was not HERS- an important distinction which you should have made.
Ray Davies' work isn't folk- so its of no value- that's the implication there....oh dear
No MacColl didn't ever sing 'Little Chance' maybe because he couldn't do the accent- if you don't even refer to the right Folkways LP- it featured songs from various source singers of NE Scotland & would have been much more valuable if EM had issued the originals rather than his own inferior versions.

I have not 'participated fully' in the discussion- have just dropped the odd comment and-I have no wish to waste time arguing with anyone as intransigent as yourself- all you want is an argument really, isn't it?
Don't know who the fokolpie boys in blue are, think your fingers are running away with you, and I'd suggest you sit in a corner with a nice cup of tea and keep your crap to yourself, while others get back to the subject

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 07:45 AM

Incidentally
MacColl's name appeared on the OP posting and two others mentioned him before I did
If you are going to discuss 'contemporary folk songs', why should the 300 odd he wrote be out of bounds ?
You have participated fully in the ensuing discussion - why should it be me who is pursuing it
And by what authority should you decide what it permissable on somebody elses thread - if I did it I'd be one of the fopolkie boys in blue !!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 07:01 AM

Try the @Still I Love Him Album for Isla singing Water of Tyne

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 06:46 AM

" 'Water of Tyne' is 'one of'islka (sic) Cameron's songs'- really?"
Not any more of course - she's dead - but it certainly was one of hers
I have a recording of her singing it
I've not avoided anything Ray Davis doesn't interest me any more and his singing bears no resemblence to folk song in any shape or form
"I'm very grateful he did that & didn't attempt a Birtley accent & Why the hell shouud he - he didn't appear on the album and hads necver sung with a North East accent to my knowledge - only the one he heard at home
Bit more grave-dancing, I think
Never heard him sing Little Chance anywhere
Folkways nevber explained why the Stewarts album was never released it was an excellent compilation of songs, stories and talk as where the other two
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: GUEST,the other Jim
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 05:48 AM

Jim C, you're still intent on an argument about MacColl. You're enytitled to do that, of course, but it is very much out of the intention of THIS thread.
You don't accept the general view that, on his own terms, he was a great collector, songwriter and contributor to the tradition, but that others have serious reservations- no-one is 100pc perfect.

I don't recall my criticising his 'mining' songs record- I presume you mean the Elliotts LP?. I'm very grateful he did that & didn't attempt a Birtley accent & record 'Little Chance' himself.

It's a valuable recording and all credit to him & PS for doing it.

You've interpreted my perfectly reasonable query about why he didn't issue his Folkways recordings of Scottish source singers as a personal attack- do you know why?

You avoided any sensible comment on the writing of Ray Davies, so Hootenanny if you think mere EVIDENCE will get anywhere with this particular closed mind, think again -   over and out.......

ps 'Water of Tyne' is 'one of'islka (sic) Cameron's songs'- really?

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 03:15 PM

Jim,

There is no point in having a childish tantrum and throwing more accusations and insults around. Calm down.

As I made clear three days back I DO HAVE THE PUBLICATION. It is here on my shelves.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 02:47 PM

Almost certainly 'Water of Tyne - one of islka Cameron's songs -
Ewan and Isla were involved in the same theatre productions around the time the song was made
"I merely reported the existence of some printed matter"
Actually you said you had it yet you refuse to identify it, which says what needs to be said and is no more than I have come to expect from MacColl necrophobes - these stories are no fun when you're asked to substantiate them
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 02:41 PM

Jim Carroll;

Just what are you on about?

I have made no accusation I merely reported the existence of some printed matter the contents of which contain something that doesn't fit your tunnel vision belief. If you don't want to believe that it exists then that's OK. It's no more than I would expect from you.

And what is all this "Biting the dust" bit? you must have been watching too many Saturday morning westerns.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 01:39 PM

"he tune is very similar to "I was born under a wandering star""
Dirty Old Town was made for a theatrical production about six years before Wand'ring Star, written for Lerner and Lowe's Paint your Wagon appeared on Broadway
More likely to be based on 'The Water is Wide' knowing how Ewan worked - Peggy was never able to work it out

"Hardly a secret? I can't believe that I have the only copy."
You made the accusation - you say you have the publication - produce your evidence and stop floundering
"bokk"
Typos - we really are drowning aren't we ?
And another one bites the dust, I think
I've answered every single question - you can't manage a single one to date
Jim

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 01:08 PM

I'm not sure I hear anything that is specifically "folk" even in Dirty Old Town. It doesn't seem to draw on traditional structures or employ many of the melodic or lyrical devices that I'd identify with traditional music.

The tune is very similar to "I was born under a wandering star" as sung by Lee Marvin. They both come out of the cowboy song genre.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Iains
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 11:21 AM

This link takes the discussion to a whole new level:

https://folkways.si.edu/magazine-summer-fall-2016-rap-and-hip-hop-bring-folk-music-to-a-new-audience/article/smithsonian

Written by an academic. It MUST be right!

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 10:44 AM

Jim C:

Hardly a secret? I can't believe that I have the only copy.

Use your researching talent and find it.

Hint: It was published in 1957. It is not a bokk or a book.

MacColl legend?

And still no straightforward answer to my question.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 09:28 AM

Ask whoever raised The Kinks as a contender for the folk scene - try the next thread
I have no interst in arguing about MacColl though I do find it arrogant for somebody to claim nobody wants to argue about him - did you conduct a survey maybe?
You are aloowed to discuss whatever you want which falls under the remit of the forum, which I understand is the traditional arts
If I said similar there'd be howls of 'folk police' from here to Ulan Bator
"As far as I can see, there are no 'unsubstantiated stories' about him"
We've just had one along with a reluctance to substantiate it
Until we are given substantiation it will remain unsubstantiated
You brought in the subject of miners songs and money recently - care to substantiate that one
Refusing to discuss te work and ideas of one of the greatest contributors to folk song is about as far over the top as it gets
Jim

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 08:52 AM

Jim C- I do not understand the mention of Ray Davi(e)s & whether you consider his work of any value?

Also, nobody wants another argument about Ewan MacColl- we know your views about that.
As far as I can see, there are no 'unsubstantiated stories' about him on this thread, so when there has been no criticism, such a stout defence of the man seemsseriously over the top, so just get that chip off your shoulder & stop provoking arguments when they do not exist!

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 08:39 AM

CONTEMPORARY SONG USING TRADITIONAL FORM
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 08:34 AM

ANOTHER FROM A DECADE EARLIER
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 08:27 AM

CONTEMPORARY FOLK SONG
Made circa 1925/30, somehere in North Clare, probably Corofin, composer unknown; celebrating the new women' hairstyle which replaced the custom of wearing the hair long and hanging down the back
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 08:11 AM

This thread has gone a long way towards answering a question that I was thinking of starting a new thread for: for those who are happy to apply the label "folk" broadly, rather than narrowly to traditional material, what are their criteria for what qualifies?

Steve's
> Dave there IS NO line. You draw your own lines as you suggest. Think Venn diagrams for music genres!

> BTW I'd be quite interested in where people draw lines between traditional folk and pieces written say 1860 to 1910 and perhaps even later. (Sorry for early thread drift)

is helpful and reminiscent of Steve Roud's discussion in the Introduction to The Book.)

The first time I heard Vincent Black Lightening I had some trouble following the plot, which suggests that it isn't quite as pared down to essentials as some of the big ballads, but it does tell a story, through a combination of description and dialogue.

The pop world is a closed book to me, my main experience being the songs that one is exposed to in shops, hairdressers, etc, characterised by much repetition of a few words (if the words are audible at all above all the other noise) and much percussion. But I get the impression that that is one end of the pop spectrum, with the other end shading into "contemporary folk" or whatever we want to call that.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 07:59 AM

"I said publication."
How can I locate it if you won't tell me the name ?
Irt seems it is to remain your secret - think we're finished with that particular MacColl legend, don't you ?
Try getting a discussion on MacColl's actually work without the usual garbage and the clouds will soon lift

I have spelled out exactly what I mean by folk song here a dozen times along with precedents, sources and clear definitions
I have yet to nearer than Ray Davis and the Kinks to date
Petrhaps you might care to offer yours ?
Jim

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: GUEST,Hootennanny
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 04:53 AM

Jim,

When did you ask me for the name of the book or the bokk?

As I pointed out above it is not a book , I said publication.

You stated that you would like to add it to your collection. With your wonderful ability in the field of research you should be able to locate a copy without too much trouble. It is the last eleven words of your comment that puzzle me.

So, will you please answer my question? I doubt it. Obfuscation appears to be your stock in trade. I was implying that you never come up with a straight simple answer.

It's reassuring to know that you spent a day with two people with open minds. Hopefully some of it rubbed off on you.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 02:39 AM

"Could you state clearly what you are implying here"
I'm not "implying anything Hooy - I asked yo to name the bokk you said you had containing the two songs you claimed MacColl had copyrighted songs - no implication - just a simple request
Sve claims thheir Traeller songs were copywriter - - the book, 'The Songs of the English and Scottish Travellers' was copyrighted (as was 'The New Penguin Bokk of Folk Songs') - the individual songs certainly weren't - they remain in the Public Domain, as they should   
"Surprise, surprise ??? Re my question above; No answer.."
I've been away since Thursday and arrived back rather later than I intended - what are you implying
Still like to know what the publication was
I have become rather bored with all the 'MacColl stories" - most unsubstantiated and virtually all which painted a picture of somebody I never knew and bore little resemblance to the MacColl I met in the mid sixties and who I came to regard as a friend and source of ins[piraition over the twenty-odd years I knew him - that goes for his partner, who I still regard the same
I'm really not interested in the opinions of those who didn't know him, nor their largely unsubstantiated stories - I am interested in the wealth of research and ideas that he left behind - the fact that it is virtually impossible to discuss those ideas because of a mountain of "name-change - war record" garbage, interests bme deeply
I sat with two friends yesterday, both singers and both fascinated by the work Pat and I described we did in Ther Critics Group - we had to put coats on to protect ourselves from the blast of two open minds
Jim

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 06:13 PM

Surprise, surprise ???

Re my question above; No answer.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 09:26 AM

Jim Carroll

"Hoot quoted an earlier book - I though I had all MacColl's publishes stuff - I'd love to add this one to the collection   
Another bit of MacColl necrophobia bites the dust, it would appear"

Could you state clearly what you are implying here?

Can I ask for a straightforward answer?
ALSO I didn't mention a book put a publication. I know you are a stickler for correct description.

Jim Bainbridge:

Re PPL; Peforming singers/musicians get royalties as do the recording companies. They too have to register. If the record company doesn't register neither get royalties.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 08:29 AM

I was have always wondered why on earth EM did not use the original singers on that Folkways CD of Scottish ballads rather than record his own version, as he did.
The information that payment was due to PPL registered SINGERS rather than the recording company for broadcast songs just made me wonder whether this lay behind the decision to do that- the fact that EM & PS issued many recordings of 'source' singers later is not in dispute.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 07:45 AM

Interesting to not that Neither Alasdaire Clayre (Seeds of Love) and Frank Puslow (Hammond and Gardiner Collection) never got around to copyrighting their arrangements - very much a phenomenon of tthe pseudo-folk scene
Off to see Hamlet -- see y'all tomorrow
Jim

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 07:08 AM

"My copy of Travellers' Songs Of E & S clearly states "
The book is copyrighted because it was edited by Ewan and Peggy - all such works belong to their editor
The individual songs most certainly are not, which is what we are discussing - the new 'Penguin Book of English Folk Songs is copyrighted to Steve Roud and Julia Bishop
Hoot quoted an earlier book - I though I had all MacColl's publishes stuff - I'd love to add this one to the collection   
Another bit of MacColl necrophobia bites the dust, it would appear

"Financial incentive"
MacColl, Seeger and Parker were paid by the BBC for the work they did on the programme - not for the songs
"we never got LPs of the original singers rather than the EM version"
After two of the radio ballads, MacColl and Seeger dited two of teh best albums ever produced of field recordings - 'Now is the Time for Fishing' after 'Singing the Fishing' and 'The Elliots of Birtly' after 'The Big Hewer'
There was to be a third on The Stewarts of Blair after the Travelling People (we have the edited recordings), but Folkways never issued it.
The Radio ballad team made a verbal contract with all those recorded at the end of the interviews - again, we have the actuality
I have no idea whether the BBC or Folkways ever honoured those contracts - I assume they both did (though I do know from experience that the BBC only paid a pittance and most of the record companies weren't much better, if they paid at all)
It was never really about money in those days and with some of us, it still isn't
Do you have the title of that 1957 publication Hoot - my two, containing the two songs you mentioned, are dated 1953 and 1964 - not copywriter either side of your date ?
It's become a 'must get' (there is no evidence of it on either the MacColl site or in 'The Essential MacColl' lists of publications
A mystery indeed
As far as our own collecting goes, we credit the songs as being traditional but the versions attributed to them (not copyrighted)
Jim

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 05:44 AM

maybe that financial incentive is why we never got LPs of the original singers rather than the EM version- he didn't do it on the Elliotts' LP but maybe he was happier copying Scottish stuff than mining songs from Durham?
Getting a bit off the subject this, and although I don't recognise 'contemporary folk' as any more of a genre than folk or trad, I can't see why there would be any problem with a folk or trad performer adding their own version of a modern song to their repertoire- we can't just STOP the development of the music!

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 03:39 PM

This is becoming a habit.

The post above was me.

Steve;

You are probably already aware of this but if Ewan and Peggy recorded a song on a commercial disc and it got played in public and or broadcast then they were entitled to royalties through PPL provided that they were registered with them. Registration cost nothing then. I guess it still costs nothing.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 03:35 PM

Jim Carroll:

The time I am speaking of is still before your involvement by four years. I apologise for getting the date wrong I think 1966 was when you said you came to London.

The publication I have was as I said above dated 1957. So obviously Ewan changed his mind after 1954 and back again at a later date and again according to Steve's posting.

Jim Bainbridge:

Yes Folkways were available in 1964 but my first was a ten inch acetate dub by Woody Guthrie with Sonny Terry purchased from Colletts New Oxford Street shop probably 1957. I have a similar dub from a Folkways dub of New Orleans Jazz recordings.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 03:15 PM

My copy of Travellers' Songs Of E & S clearly states ' @ Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger 1977'. Oh, and several pop stars appear in the Acknowledgments.



By the way, I'm being facetious deliberately. On p31 under the title 'Copyrights' they state. 'The modern practice of copyrighting traditional songs is a subject of continuing controversy. It is our opinion that if copyright MUST be assigned, then it should be to the singers.

My own view is much more simplistic. They are public domain and therefore impossible to copyright. You can only copyright a particular arrangement.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 12:41 PM

Don't think so Hoot - I was well into it by then
I joined the Spinners Club in Liverpool in 1961/2
Don't know what your publication was, but nothing I have by MacColl, going back to 'Scotland Sings (1953) is copyright (both of those you mentioned are in 'Scotland Sings' and Personal Choice (1962) and are attributed to the collections they came from)
Jim

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 12:38 PM

I remember going to Collet's in New Oxford Street about 1964 and being delighted to find the Folkways (cardboard cover) LPs of the Elliotts of Birtley and the Borders LP featuring Willie Scott et al, so they were available then.
There were also LPs on the same label of Ewan MacColl, singing the bothy ballads he'd recorded from Scottish singers. It struck me then that it would have been more acceptable if those original singers had been on the record, rather than the collector's version....

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 11:01 AM

Jim,

Re Folkways availability I am referring to the days before you entered the folk music world if we can believe your own telling that you first encountered it in 1966.
Did I say that Folkways were NOT available? No. I explained that they were and the situation at the time.

It was a copyright of an "arrangement" that you referred to I have a publication dated 1957 (again pre-dating your interest by nine years) which includes the song "Rothesay-O", "Traditional", "Words and Music arranged by Ewan MacColl". Ditto for the song "Calton Weaver" which doesn't include the description "Traditional".

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 08:53 AM

" rain forest type recordings were available, or in demand in the UK legally or otherwise."
They were - and they extended far beyond South America - still have some Eastern European albums
Some of MacColls early Ballads also appeared ion the label - three of them were among the first I bought and were instrumental in converting me to the real thing
Be interessted to learn what traditional stuff MaColl copyrighted
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 07:43 AM

Damn,

I did it again. The above post was me.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 07:41 AM

Re Folkways I assumed that you were speaking of it in terms of material used in UK folk clubs; Woody Guthrie, New Lost City Ramblers etc. I am fully aware of the scope of Moe's recordings but I don't think any of his rain forest type recordings were available, or in demand in the UK legally or otherwise.

"I think copyrighting arrangements was largely an American thing, though I know MacColl publicly criticised Luke Kelly for the Thee Dubliers attempts at it."
DESPITE THE FACT THAT HE HAD DONE IT HIMSELF!?

I am well aware of the Old 97 too. Norm Cohen gives a full account of it and all the claims, counterclaims and appeals in his book Long Steel Rail.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 05:49 AM

The Third Programmer was largely regarded as aimed at the educated elite - recognised for Classical Music and learned talks
The small listernership was a standing joke - I remember The Goons threatening someone to 'Ten years hard Third Programme listening'
"You mention Folkways which being in New York issued mainly US material"
Not the case - Folkways had a massive international catalogue
I think copyrighting arrangements was largely an American thing, though I know MacColl publicly criticised Luke Kelly for the Thee Dubliers attempts at it.
The first court case involving a traditional song occurred quite early over the authorship of 'Wreck of the Old 97'
Jim

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 03:46 AM

I think, as per my earlier post, that copyright is a red herring when it comes to songs performed in folk clubs. I know it makes a massive difference for any commercial venture such as publishing or recording but I have never heard of anyone being sued under copyright law for singing a song at a folk club. Contemporary Folk (shorthand for longer meaning as discussed above) can be in copyright but depends on being the right 'type' of music for folk club audiences.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 05:50 PM

Apologies if you consider this as thread drift but Steve Gardham's post at 03.33 sent me to my bookshelf and there I found The Penguin Book of American Folk Songs with notes by Alan Lomax.
On the first page it states the following;

"Unless otherwise stated the songs in this book are drawn from previously copyrighted sources and, as composite versions, have been adapted and arranged by Alan Lomax, by John A Lomax or by other editors. They may not be reprinted, recorded, or used for commercial purposes without the written permission of the authors, through Ludlow Music Inc., Columbus Circle, New York, or Essex Music Ltd, London".

One song included here is what I believe was the first song recorded by the Carter Family in 1927. In which case it would have been copyrighted by Ralph Peer and A.P Carter. It would therefore still have been in copyright I believe, Whether it was written by Carter is questionable I believe. To me without checking it against the Carter recording I cannot see how it has been adapted.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 03:37 PM

The singing of trad English songs in Hull started about 1963 with the Watersons. I'm not aware of anything else in our archives before that. I came along in about 65 after a couple of years avidly listening to American stuff.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 03:33 PM

59 & 60 respectively.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 02:48 PM

Apologies the Guest above was me.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 02:47 PM

Jim

"The mainstays were 'Lloyd/Vaughan Williams's 'Penguin Book of Folk Songs and MacColl and Seeger's 'Singing Island"

In what years were these published please?

"The best of folk song was to be found on The Third Programme, which nobody but the toffs listened"
Toffs? amongst my family and friends this would have been seen as an insult. It's the first time I have been described as such.
This is the second time that you have mentioned that nobody listened to these programmes. I have no doubt that the audience wasn't large but I believe that the folk audience at that time was mainly interested in the American material which had become more well known via Skiffle. This was available in such programmes for instance as Guitar Club, 6.05 Special, Easybeat and blues programmes made by Paul Oliver.

You mention Folkways which being in New York issued mainly US material. In fact their Harry Smith collection did an amazing job in building a very large audience for folk music. And, it was made up of re-issues of commercial recordings.
Folkways were available in England but only clandestinely or on acetate dubs. At that time they were not licenced for issue here. As a consequence they were expensive. Shops such as Collets and Dobells were raided by customs and the "illegal" product confiscated.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 02:39 PM

>>>>>>I can see nothing wrong with this in the club context as long as it is applied to songs which have been made using folk form, thus achieving homogeneity and giving the audience what it came to listen to<<<<<<<.

I think we can call that consensus. Debate over.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 02:29 PM

Jim,
The Roud Index is simply a tool, a catalogue, primarily so we can find versions of songs, and we can compare and research versions. How does the fact that there are a few songs in there that don't tick somebody's box affect that usage?

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 02:19 PM

>>>>>'It is when it is used to cram in anything that takes any fancy - the 'singing horse' school of non-thought'<<<<<< Whilst this would be impossible to police, Jim's perception of this as a massive problem is way off the mark. Folk music, as more people have witnessed than have denied, is alive and well in England albeit not so much in the earlier format of the folk club. Festivals, singarounds, weekend gatherings, sessions, concerts, etc., are all very healthy in all of the places I visit. Here's a new suggestion, Jim, have a look at the website 'Mainly Norfolk' which deals mainly with recordings. This aspect looks very healthy to me. A wide range of young performers performing largely traditional material with a sprinkling of contemporary folk.

Subject: RE: Different types of contemporary folk
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 01:59 PM

'contemporary folk song'
I can see nthing wrong with this in the club context as long as it is applied to songs which have been made using folk form, thus achieving homogeneity and giving the audience what it came to listen to
It is when it is used to cram in anything that takes any fancy - the 'singing horse' school of non-thought
"digs pass,"
I don't do 'nasty digs' - I leave that to those who describe the pioneers as romantics and who suggest that Child couldn't tell the difference between his formal poetry and his folk ballads   
Roud shiftedf from just including folk songs to anything the source singers sand, not to make sure he missed nothing but - well- god knows why - it just didn't make sense, especially as he didn't include everything the source singers sang - how could he
THere is no justification whatever for giving a Roud number to an easily traceable composition of the early twentieth century by an American boxing promoter who had never set foot in England -especially as our last big souce singer has dismissed all such songs as 'not folk songs'
Jim Carroll