Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 09 Aug 24 - 05:54 AM

*Agree*, Helen. I drove my piano teacher spare, because my ear was (and is) so much faster than my eye that I would learn a piece by ear,* then play from memory, rather than sight-read. It didn't help that I have astigmatism, so the lines of the stave tend to run into one another.

Apologies for having said all this elsewhere. But as they (are alleged to) say in the Forces: One size fits nobody.

* Or piece the dots out *very* *slowly*.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: Helen
Date: 09 Aug 24 - 05:29 AM

A little story:

One of the members of our music session group is a slave to the dots. He does not "get" traditional music, I think.

One day he started playing Tansey's Fancy, as written, and we told him to stop because that isn't how the tune goes. In fact I didn't recognise the tune from the way he played it.

On the other hand, I have dyslexia and I cannot recite poetry, remember lyrics, or play music by ear or remember the melody of more than a handful of tunes. I need the dots. One thing I learned when I was a teacher is that everyone has a different learning style or different capabilities and a one-size-fits-all approach can make it difficult for people with different learning capabilities.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Aug 24 - 05:10 AM

Helen- I think were on the same page musically! But Jack Campin I could not disagree more. Your approach is the classical one rather than traditional & no doubt why so many Scottish 'sessions' feature music stands! A dot is a dot & is technically correct, but you simply cannot say that the tune was 'not intended to have interpretative subtleties' It HAS, whether the composer meant it to or not!!

And as for the statement that 'there cannot be anything there that is not in the notation' I simply despair - I doubt if even classically trained musicians would claim that & in the context of traditional music, it is totally against the whole context of ANY kind oftraditional music

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 09 Aug 24 - 04:49 AM

The tune was not intended to have interpretive subtleties. It was written to be played en masse by a fiddle school (as their closing number). Expressive refinement doesn't happen when there are 20 or 30 people playing in unison. There can't be anything there that isn't in the notation.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: Helen
Date: 08 Aug 24 - 06:31 AM

Well Guest, as I often say to my musical friends, the music notation (i.e. the dots) are only a mnemonic to remind us of the notes to play and we really need to know how the music goes to play it properly. That is especially true of a lot of Irish music. Playing it as read can sound mechanical and soulless, but playing it as heard brings a whole different feeling to it, in melody, in rhythm, in culture and in soul.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: Helen
Date: 08 Aug 24 - 05:38 AM

Cleo Laine and John Dankworth. I haven't heard their names for many, many years. I saw them perform live in Newcastle, Oz a long time ago. Brilliant!

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Aug 24 - 05:34 AM

Helen- I get what you say BUT if you play or sing any song from the dots, you are getting it second hand. The dots cannot express the subtleties of a live performance by the source, and that is true in any context.
You will interpret the dots your own way & then it is third hand. Much better to hear Jay Ungar play it (I think you've done that?) forget the dots & then do it your way, and certainly in all cases do not slavishly follow the dots- such a policy is totally against the whole concept of traditional music & I'm sure Jay Ungar would agree

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 08 Aug 24 - 04:56 AM

P.s. One set of lyrics above in the DigiTrad: just click on the link. The other set were by Cleo Laine and John Dankworth.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 08 Aug 24 - 04:52 AM

There are already two sets of lyrics at least, which I found some years ago on Mudcat here: they have been approved by Jay Ungar. You would have to ask him if he would approve yours.

Quite hard to sing, with a range of over two octaves unless you do some octave-jumping! We did just this at another session the other week, with some brave singers using the two sets of lyrics that I mentioned.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 24 - 07:33 PM

Having watched Ken Burns' Civil War, I wrote some lyrics to the tune. I'm not sure what to do with them. I don't know very much about copyrights.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: Helen
Date: 07 Aug 24 - 07:16 PM

That was beautiful. Thanks gillymor.

The last comment on that page was, "Instructions: 1. Close eyes. 2 Listen to the end. 3. Let out deep sigh" but I would add 4. Wipe a tear from your eye.

And when they all play that lovely accidental in unison at 3 mins 40 - transcendental!

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 07 Aug 24 - 06:27 PM

Aly Bain starts it off with Ungar and ensemble at the Transatlantic Sessions. Ashokan Farewell

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: Helen
Date: 07 Aug 24 - 02:36 PM

Thanks Tattie Bogle and Guest. I especially liked Molly Mason playing the melody on the guitar and her gentle chord riffs for the rest of the tune.

Tattie Bogle, the instruments in your group of friends would sound good.

And Guest, our group of musical friends have the dots but they are the same as played by Jay Ungar and Molly Mason. There was a very old copy (decades, not just years) of the music from a tune book, so possibly straight from the source.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 24 - 01:54 PM

thats the right message Helen- go to the source for the way it's done....for English tunes, go to Scan Tester rather than getting it from others or in other contexts Harry Cox or Charlie Poole or Jimmy McBeath or Tom Anderson - or worse still, from the dots

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 07 Aug 24 - 06:49 AM

Thanks Helen, for the link. Yes, that’s the way to do it!
Played it with a group of friends yesterday morning, nice and slow. 5 fiddles, 3 concertinas, 1 each of piano accordion, melodeon, guitar and octave mandolin.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 24 - 08:26 PM

I'm a bit biased because my diatonic instrument of choice (a low D harmonica) can't play that Cnat cleanly enough, but I would agree withJack (if that's what he thinks) about that note. Maybe it sits well enough in the context of an American tune but, to me anyway, it sounds oddly out of place. Almost, but not quite as bad as, that note in the Padstow Lifeboat or the ones in Staten Island. ;-)

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: Helen
Date: 06 Aug 24 - 07:57 PM

I like it played this way:

Folk Alley Sessions: Jay Ungar & Molly Mason Family Band

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 06 Aug 24 - 07:46 PM

Nicola Benedetti just happens to be our foremost Scottish classical violinist, recognised the world over, and current director of Edinburgh International Festival: not bad, eh? The tune does get played in differing ways by different violinists and fiddlers: different tempos, phrasing, more or less double-stopping, more or less harmony with other instruments, etc.
As for what Jack Campin thinks (friend of mine), I know he doesn’t like the tune in question, especially that C Nat: he has been known to describe it as a “leave the room moment”. If he sees this thread, he’ll probably confirm that in no uncertain terms!

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 06 Aug 24 - 02:25 PM

Guest Johnmmc

Not Tongue in cheek at all. I never heard the violinist's name and even if I had I wouldn't have known if she was well known or not.

As I mentioned above I prefer Fiddle players to violinists. Buddy Thomas for example.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: DaveRo
Date: 06 Aug 24 - 01:40 PM

As I already posted.

The arrangement played by Ms Bendetti in the BBC program heard by the OP and the interview with Laura Kuenssberg I mentioned is different.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 06 Aug 24 - 12:05 PM

Homecoming - A Scottish Fantasy Release Date: 7th Jul 2014 Catalogue No: 4786696 Label: Decca Length: 70 minutes

Nicola Benedetti (violin, fiddle), Phil Cunningham (accordion, piano), Ewen Vernal (double bass), Tony Byrne (guitar), Éamon Doorley (bouzouki), Duncan Chisholm (fiddle), James MacIntosh (percussion), Julie Fowlis (vocals), Aly Bain (fiddle), BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra, Rory Macdonald

Ungar: Ashokan Farewell Work length 3:42 Nicola Benedetti (violin)
BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra, Rory Macdonald
Recorded: 2014-01-21 Recording Venue: City Halls, Glasgow

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,johnmc
Date: 06 Aug 24 - 09:07 AM

"An apparently well-known violinist ".
Tongue in cheek, surely.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 24 - 04:48 AM

Different versions you hear may or may not be played with Scotch snaps...

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 06 Aug 24 - 04:38 AM

To me, as a Scottish person, it does actually sound as though it has a few characteristics in common with certain Scottish slow airs. I'd say that the composer is definitely familiar with the work of Niel Gow, for example.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 24 - 04:22 AM

to rephrase I said earlier, it's in the ear of the listener! We are attuned to the material we have heard over the years & judge accordingly, based only on that unless we want to engage in baseless pseudo-intellectualism

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 24 - 03:51 AM

I do not think it sounds like a scottish air.
Jack Campin seems to be an authority on Scottish tunes, I would value his opinion

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 06 Aug 24 - 03:28 AM

GUEST,German Bight said
> Richard Mellish, airs are common in the Irish Tradition, as well as the Scottish Tradition.

Indeed they are, but this discussion has been about how Scottish or not the tune seems: no-one has suggested it could be Irish.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Aug 24 - 08:13 PM

I made a mistake in my last post, referring to "Aeolian" when I meant "Ionian!" Thanks for being such a restrained bunch in not correcting me out loud! Anyway, in every regard except for that C natural, it's an Ionian mode tune (OK, so the tonic is D, not C, you purists!) and, after my decades of having to play it, it wasn't until I read this thread that I've heard it described as "sounding Scottish." Not to my ear it doesn't!

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 05 Aug 24 - 07:05 PM

I had heard the quote given by DaveRo above, about it Jay Ungar (not Jungar!) himself saying that he wrote it “in the style of a Scottish lament”. As a Scot, I don’t find it particularly Scottish sounding, and that one Cnat doesn’t really make it a mixolydian tune, if you compare it with our many “mix” pipe tunes.
I do think it is a lovely tune, but needs to be played slowly - yes, as a lament - with lots of expression, rather than romped through mechanically as a swingy waltz which happens in too many pub sessions.
I was somewhat gobsmacked to hear a different arrangement the other week, when it was put into an up tempo 4/4 almost reggae rhythm: almost unrecognisable: I hope Jay got his royalties for that!

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: GUEST,German Bight
Date: 03 Aug 24 - 07:29 AM

Richard Mellish, airs are common in the Irish Tradition, as well as the Scottish Tradition.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 03 Aug 24 - 04:58 AM

I wonder what I was thinking when I wrote this! It should, of course, be guitar. Nobody made fun of it, thank you.

[Evan Stover] took it with him when he joined Walt Michael & Co, who were very welcome guests at the Girvan Folk Festival.
Walt Michael - hammered dulcimer/pencil, Frank Orsini - fiddle, Evan Stover - fiddle/viola, John Kirk - bass (I think!)

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: GUEST,German Bight
Date: 03 Aug 24 - 02:24 AM

The BBC once again displays its Ignorance.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 24 - 05:14 PM

Fair point from Steve Shaw maybe. It would only be a flat 7th if it was mixolydian, which is where the later-appearing 7th often figures. Without those other unstressed non-flat 7ths maybe it would sound more Scottish.

Still a great tune though.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: Sol
Date: 02 Aug 24 - 04:51 PM

Quote from recent Guest -" Yes, great tune. My "however" would be that the single late-appearing flat 7th is characteristically Scottish and for me the tune maybe wouldn't sound all that Scottish without it. "

I'm sure we're both referring to the same 'tension' note. I said '7th' as I would when referring to a guitar chord. It is a flat 7th, as you say.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 24 - 07:44 PM

That Cnat in the B part is a pig for harmonica players. On a low D diatonic it's next to impossible to play with a bend or an overbend at all cleanly, especially as it's a long note. I have to resort to my D chromatic, which is what is less desirable. I can't agree that it "sounds Scottish." Scottish tunes might resort to mixolydian mode, but they don't usually chuck a nefarious accidental into an aeolian mode tune. Not usually... ;-)

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: gillymor
Date: 01 Aug 24 - 09:27 AM

I hear elements of Scottish and American music in it and in the B section it sounds a bit like themes from Hollywood TV Westerns in the late 50's and early 60's.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Aug 24 - 08:38 AM

Whether it "sounds" Scottish to some and whether it "is" Scottish in fact are two different and independent questions.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 24 - 08:02 AM

(A different guest)

Great tune however, that 7th has always been 'the seller' for me. (Sol above)

Yes, great tune. My "however" would be that the single late-appearing flat 7th is characteristically Scottish and for me the tune maybe wouldn't sound all that Scottish without it.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: leeneia
Date: 31 Jul 24 - 10:32 PM

I play this on my 107-year-old piano in the key of D. It has an Am in the middle of it which makes the song sound so American, and so 19th-century, that every time I get to that measure I see a huge green landscape with a little pioneer town with one steeple nestled between two hills.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: Helen
Date: 31 Jul 24 - 06:22 PM

Thanks DaveRo, I'll check it out. I've been using your excellent Linkmaker since you recommended it to me.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: DaveRo
Date: 31 Jul 24 - 02:58 PM

əˈʃoʊˌkæn

(You need my Browser Tools addon ;)

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: Helen
Date: 31 Jul 24 - 01:18 PM

Sorry this bit "/?'?o??kæn/" is the phonetic pronunciation characters which did not copy into plain text. Please ignore that bit or look at the Wiki article for more info.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: Helen
Date: 31 Jul 24 - 01:16 PM

Guest, the original place of composition is well known for
Ashokan Farewell

"'Ashokan Farewell' /?'?o??kæn/ is a piece of music composed by the American folk musician Jay Ungar in 1982. For many years, it served as a goodnight or farewell waltz at the annual Ashokan Fiddle & Dance Camps, run by Ungar and his wife Molly Mason, who gave the tune its name, at the Ashokan Field Campus of SUNY New Paltz (now the Ashokan Center) in Upstate New York.[1]

"The tune was used as the title theme of the 1990 PBS television miniseries The Civil War.[2] Despite its late date of composition, it was included in the 1991 compilation album Songs of the Civil War."

Your link refers to an Indian restaurant in Ashton Lane, Glasgow so it isnot relevant to the discussion of the song.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 24 - 12:15 PM

How could anything named "Ashokan" be Scottish?

Ashoka in Glasgow

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: DaveRo
Date: 31 Jul 24 - 12:13 PM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0021hbv

The comments are made by the interviewer, starting at 2:57:40

Certainly a somewhat free arrangement!

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 31 Jul 24 - 11:32 AM

The programme that I was referring to was BBC Radio 4's TODAY programme. It was just before 9.00 am. I had just woken up at the end of an interview about the Edinburgh Festival the violinist said what tune she was going out with at the end of the interview and the announcer introduced it as I quoted above.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Jul 24 - 11:27 AM

I once was hiding out from the rain at the Old Songs Festival a LONG time ago, and Jay Ungar was there. I told him I could immediately play it, the first time I heard it (in a session - never saw the Ken Burns program before then). I told him it felt like he plucked that tune out of some collection of all the music that ever existed. I still feel that way - the tune was just always there. It's probably the same reason some people are sick of it the first time they hear it. (Haha)

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: DaveRo
Date: 31 Jul 24 - 07:56 AM

GUEST,patriot wrote: I'm not sure if DaveRo's quote is from her interview with Laura K or on the performance in question.

It's from a transcript of "Sunday with Laura Kuenssberg" broadcast somewhere on the BBC on 21st July 2O24. She discusses arts funding in general, the Edinburgh Festival in particular, and seems to end with her playing this piece. Reading it again, I don't think that when she said "[it] pays homage to the Scottish mythology and the Scottish sound" that she was referring to Jay Jungar's intention - the tune's origins are well known and I sure she knows them - so much as the way she interprets it.

I don't know on what BBC program the OP heard the remark about it being traditional. Since the Kuenssberg interview was recent I thought it was possible that the performance was the same.

Benedetti has appeared on the Transatlantic Sessions and there a video of her and Aly Bain discussing their music, if you want to find out more.

Looking though some of the links prepended to this this thread, this morning, I came upon this quote, attributed to Jungar:

Ashokan Farewell is written in the style of a Scottish lament or Irish
Air. I sometimes introduce it as, "a Scottish lament written by a
Jewish guy from the Bronx." (I lived in the Bronx untiI the age of 16.)

From this post.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 31 Jul 24 - 05:31 AM

Evan Stover arranged "Ashokan Farewell" for Waltz of the Wind, the second album by the band Fiddle Fever, 1984.
Fiddle – Matt Glaser, Russ Barenberg; Fiddle, Mandolin – Jay Ungar; Fiddle, Viola – Evan Stover; Guitar – Molly Mason, Russ Barenberg

He took it with him when he joined Walt Michael & Co, who were very welcome guests at the Girvan Folk Festival.
Walt Michael - hammered dulcimer/pencil, Frank Orsini - fiddle, Evan Stover - fiddle/viola, John Kirk - bass (I think!)

In 1984, filmmaker Ken Burns heard "Ashokan Farewell" and was moved by it. He used it in two of his documentary films: Huey Long (1985), and The Civil War (1990), which features the original recording by Fiddle Fever in the beginning of the film. Wikipedia

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: GUEST,patriot
Date: 31 Jul 24 - 05:19 AM

I'm not sure if DaveRo's quote is from her interview with Laura K or on the performance in question.

But that particular quote strikes me as only too typical of the current fad for pseudo-academic analysis of a simple and brilliant tune by a classical musician, almost as an apology for playing such a low brow tune, unfortunately written by a non-classical composer.

It is no more Scottish than Irish or Galician or Welsh or sri Lankan- it's just more pretentious crap with no basis is fact