BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Ireland
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 06:16 PM

The American Veterans Traveling Tribute was on show at Queens University,it in no way glorified the war and I fail to see how the Vets day at the real war does. Many and I mean many people men and women came away from the tribute with tears in their eyes, for me it was the sense of loss and the ending of potential in young lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 06:15 PM

What British Army special forces units were in Vietnam though Ireland? I can't find any information about them anywhere. Considering how well documented the US side of the war in Vietnam is, I find it nigh on impossible to believe, without you providing some references, online or offline. I promise you to look them up, and treat the information as fairly as I can.

I notice that the Traveling exhibit doesn't make any mention of the Vietnam Veterans Against War, and I don't see any discussion of the vets themselves who became anti-war activists in these threads.

I'd like to ask politely and respectfully, how the Mudcat vets feel about the VVAW's involvement in anti-war protests then and now, and how they feel about their fellow vets organizing against the current military buildup and war planning against Iraq this year on Veteran's Day? Both Veterans for Peace and Vietnam Veterans Against War participated in anti-war activities on Veteran's Day here in Minnesota, as a way of honoring vets.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Ireland
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 06:02 PM

There were many special forces units in V.Nam,my father was in one of those such units,it is a pity that someone who offers opinions really lacks the finite details.

Look up hearts and minds, it was a strategy that the BA used when they were in Malaya, the US later tried it in V.Nam.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 05:54 PM

Here is a link to the American Veterans Traveling Tribute website:

http://www.avtt.org

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 05:44 PM

That was intended as a joke, Ireland. Lighten up, please?

Trick question. US military advisors are US military. The first US POWs in Vietnam were captured in 1954.

So, Mad Jack Percival aside, the US helped fund France's attempt to retake Vietnam as a colony post WWII. The US sent it's first few advisors in 1950. After Ho Chi Minh defeats the French at Dien Bien Phu, the country is partitioned by international conference in 1954 (though the US wasn't a signatory). US takes over in 1956, installed Diem as premier and set up MAAG (Military Assistance and Advisory Group). By the time Kennedy takes over, there are around 700 "advisors" in Vietnam.

Diem's crackdown on Buddhists and nationalists begins, many South Vietnamese flock to join the ranks of the NLF, Diem falls when the US backed the generals/gangsters' coup. The generals/gangsters got overzealous, and started to overthrow one another, leading finally to nine coups, and tremendous political and economic instability. US military involvement goes from the 500 or so US military dispatched to Saigon in the mid-50s, to approximately 25,000 at the time of the 1964 election. By the end of '65, there will be almost 200,000.

Now, what does this have to do with your father being killed while in service to the British army in Vietnam in 1967?

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: mg
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 05:32 PM

so much to understand, so little time. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 05:20 PM

Just to help you out here Ireland, "Guest 1" who refreshed this thread says that there are three guests posting to it. While that may be true, the other guests have posted only once each and I think you can probably figure them out by reading the tone and phrasing. One was on the 12th and the other on the 13th I believe, but since then, the rest of the "Guests" are all Guest #1.......She stays quite busy.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 05:09 PM

Are we counting Old Ironsides?

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Ireland
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 05:00 PM

Here is the problem guest,which guest am I answering? When did V.Nam go from having military advisors to having the US military there?

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 04:37 PM

I also haven't been able to find any information online that substantiates your claim about British military involvement in the US war with Vietnam, Ireland. I'm a pretty fair online researcher, and I can find nothing about the British army in Vietnam at that time.

If it is understanding you are seeking, IMO, you should be willing to meet people half way. So I ask again please, put aside your anger, and share with us what you know, that we do not. That would truly further understanding Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Ireland
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 04:20 PM

So you really do not know,but you still comment.

I'll leave it up to the vets who know to educate you.

You really do not care what you say as long as you get your point across, I'm irish so why should it matter to me?

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 04:12 PM

I'm not aware of any British army troops being in Vietnam in 1967, Ireland, so perhaps you can explain to me how your father came to be killed there. I know there were Australian troops in Vietnam and hundreds of them were killed. But if you wish me to understand your perspective, you will have to enlighten me. It is impossible to understand something I am wholly ignorant of, which I am regarding British troop involvement in Vietnam.

If you wouldn't mind explaining the circumstances of British military involvement, you would likely also be educating others besides just me. I don't think most Americans are aware of the British military involvement in the US' war with Vietnam.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Ireland
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 04:05 PM

Try 1967, you really do not understand do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 03:44 PM

That is a canned summary of British involvement in Vietnam. I presume your father was killed during the occupation, Ireland? You have my sympathies for the loss of your father While your anger and vehemence seems very intense to me for one who lost a loved one so many years ago, doesn't mean you aren't entitled to expressing it here, if that is your wish.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 03:38 PM

The British occupation of Vietnam:

Even before the Japanese surrender, Communist led Vietminh forces had been taking control of the northern provinces of Vietnam. When the war finally ended after the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the Vietminh marched into Hanoi. The forces entered the city on 19 August to a tumultuous reception. Soon afterwards, on 2 September, the Communist leader, Ho Chi Minh, proclaimed Vietnamese independence from French rule in front of a crowd of half a million people. Ho's expectation was that the victorious Allies would accept this fait accompli and that the French would have to negotiate on Vietminh terms.

While the Vietminh were strong in the north, in Saigon and the south they faced a challenge from rival nationalist and socialist organisations, including a strong Trotskyist movement. They warned that independence could only be achieved through struggle and the Allies could not be trusted. The Vietminh established a provisional government in Saigon, the Committee of the South, but when the British arrived it had still not succeeded in gaining undisputed control of the city.

South Vietnam had been placed under British control at the Potsdam, conference of July 1945. The British commander, Lord Mountbatten, sent over 20,000 troops of the 20th Indian division under General Douglas Gracey to occupy Saigon. The first soldiers arrived on 6 September and increased to full strength over the following weeks. The Committee of the South attempted to open negotiations, but was ignored. As Gracey later boasted, 'I was welcomed on arrival by the Vietminh. I promptly kicked them out.' Instead he set about driving the nationalists off the streets, banning meetings and demonstrations, closing down the Vietnamese press, prohibiting Vietnamese from carrying weapons and restoring Japanese curfew regulations. On 23 September, with his connivance and under his protection, French troops staged a coup. They seized public buildings, including the town hall, and made widespread arrests. This provoked fierce resistance.

Saigon was paralysed by a general strike and fighting broke out in many parts of the city. Barricades were erected and poorly armed rebels attempted to fight it out with heavily armed British troops. For a while it looked as if the British were in danger of being cut off from reinforcements when Vietnamese forces nearly succeeded in overrunning Tan Son Nhut airfield. They were driven off. While this fighting continued the Vietminh took the opportunity to destroy the Vietnamese Trotskyist movement, executing its leaders.

At last the British secured control of the city but only after the liberal use of artillery, the deliberate burning of areas held by the rebels and the rearming and use of surrendered Japanese troops. According to Edmund Taylor, an American officer in Saigon at the time, the city reminded him 'of a town newly occupied by Franco's forces in the Spanish Civil War'.

After the city was cleared fighting continued on the outskirts and into the surrounding countryside. Here once again use was made of Japanese troops in an effort to keep down British casualties. The orders issued by Gracey instructed his troops to 'always use the maximum force available to ensure wiping out any hostiles... If one uses too much no harm is done'.

By the end of December--as large numbers of French troops began arriving--British withdrawal began. Gracey himself left at the end of January but the last British soldiers were killed in Vietnam in June 1946. Altogether 40 British and Indian troops were killed and over a hundred were wounded. Vietnamese casualties were officially 600 killed but unofficially three or four times higher.

Gracey had saved Vietnam for the French and thereby precipitated a war of national liberation that was to last another 30 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 03:22 PM

Approximtae number of US military who served in 10 years in Vietnam:

2,700,000

Approximate number of US military women who served: 5,900

Approximate number of US military men killed: 58,000

Number of US military women killed: 8

Estimated number of Vietnamese civilians killed: 2,000,000

Perspective is everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Ireland
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 03:15 PM

"I correct myself. Odd thing for an Irish fellow to be foaming at the mouth about"

Not that odd Guest my father lost his life there,he was in the British Army. You are really showing your ignorance.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: mg
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 02:38 PM

thanks Irish. I am sure many people know that the traveling wall went to Ireland last year (?) to honor those Irishmen, and I believe an Irish-born woman, who died, and many who served. I am not sure if they served as Irish citizens or as immigrants. Of course, some, and I have met one, and so have some of you, immigrated to Australia and got drafted. And even without direct involvement, there are certainly ties between Ireland and America...and people have family members, cousins, brothers etc. There was a wreath laying at the wall this year by an Irish veteran (at least I read there was) in honor of ???not sure..I think Nurse Donavan, one of the few women on the wall (many women who died were civilians and therefore not on the wall but are of course remembered).

I met a Mexican man who says he and many others enlisted from Mexico. I can't verify this other than to believe him. And of course Puerto Ricans enlisted in great numbers, and are in a different category of citizenship. I have heard it said there were whole villages in Puerto Rico where there were no young men at all. Not a one.

And the thing that shocked me so much when I first looked at the book of the dead was (1) how many officers there were and (2) how many Irish names there were. And you will heard it said that many many of the Nurse Corps at the time were Irish American young women. I can't verify this either..

mg

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 02:34 PM

I correct myself. Odd thing for an Irish fellow to be foaming at the mouth about.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Ireland
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 02:21 PM

I'll never apologise for showing how I feel about vets,your right though guest as you point the finger at me three are pointing right back at ya! along with all the others who have rumbled you.

Should never have taken your post seriously in the first place, here is a challenge for all the activists,I think when vets day comes around next year you will raise the same BS,g'wan prove me wrong and have some courage of your convictions, or show some real human compassion you falsely profess to have.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 02:02 PM

Ireland, on the other hand, seems to be doing all he/she can to keep this thread refreshed. Near singlehandedly.

Odd thing for an Irish fellow to concern himself with.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Ireland
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 01:54 PM

I have twisted nothing if people choose to ignore the reasons why so many take offence that so call peaceful people spit on the uniform and ultimately on the representative of their country perhaps they should reconsider what they class themselves as.

To say the war is over is redundant, the dog in the street knows that,so people should realise that and let the vets of any war remember and honor their friends in peace, without the spectre of glorying war being laid on them.

And if we all want peace lets think of those who brought it about the hard way, not too much to ask!

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 01:53 PM

artbrooks, there are, if my count is correct, currently three anon guests posting to this thread. It was refreshed when Mudcat members provided a link to it in another thread. It being refreshed was entirely relevant to a number of Veterans Day threads going on.

Before you play the "unmask the troll's agenda" game, you might want to get the facts straight first.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: artbrooks
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 01:46 PM

Long ago and far away. You all realize that ANON.GUEST revived this 2-year-old thread and is keeping it going entirely for his/her/its own purient interests, don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 01:39 PM

Ireland, Next to Teribus you have the greatest ability to misread other peoples posts and twist them to fit your agenda that I've run into here in the world of cats.

In the most simple terms, yes, spitting went on by a very, very small number of vets and antiwar folk. Not enough for Boss Hog to put his PR guys on it and blow a non-story into the *Big Lie*. Sure, some vet or antiwar person will come on here and perpetuate the *Big Lie* but it is just... the *Big Lie*.

Yeah, as long as Boss Hog can keep to vet and antiwar peons fueding between themselves then no one's gonna look his fat butt in the eye and ask the tough questions, like how come it the folks from the working class and lower who get their butts shot up in these needless wars, Mr. Hog?

Yeah, it's divide and conquer.

Now, if anyone wants to continue fueling this fire, feel free, as fir me, I have said my piece on this thread and will not return to it.

The war is over.

Peace

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Ireland
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 01:29 PM

Once againg you look over the issues raised, answer them, g'wan , some chance! and I'm not sleggin.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 01:22 PM

And you hail from where again in Ireland, Mr. "Ireland"?

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Ireland
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 12:57 PM

Guest and Bobert, did the spitting happen, yes it did you both acknowledge that. Was it done in the name of anti war protesters.

Bobert you admitted that there were those who did spit, it went both ways, does that make it right, does that mean we negate the feelings of those who were spat on because some one spat back? You have just justified the actions of some of the anti war activists who think it is right to take such actions. You have defended them by saying what you said,that implicates all activists.

Human nature being what it is, with the strong sense of loyalty and protection people have for each other, is it too hard to understand how people feel when one person spits on one vet. Bobert spit on anyone in uniform you may just spit on the whole Army.

With the incidents posted, I ask if that person had the opportunity to spit on all the military would they have done it? That's were the insults lie it is the principle of the thing your attacking what they stand for, your not much of a soldier if you do not have pride for your uniform and what it stands for.

Spit on the American flag and you've spat on every American not too hard a concept to understand and apply to the above.

Guest I have haven't a lot of time for you, Big Mick has shown you for what you are, I think it's a shame that others encourage you and your disengenuous rants.

I totally agree with the sentiments of anti war, no one should go to war, the problem I have is with the tactics that some use and when they decide to use them.

One thing though Bobert as you say you worked tirelessly to end the V.Nam war what in heavens name did you think those poor buggers who were in V.Nam doing. These people have my respect and I believe they are very special people, as they not only take the good times of being an American they also took the bad. Is that not what it is about the rough with the smooth?

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 11:22 AM

Steve:

Amen, brother, from the bottom of my heart.

And other than this bad pickin' thumb, this ol' hillbilly is havin' a glorious day. The maples are beutiful. The Iragis have accepted in principle the UN resolution. And it looks like I'm gonna win an ebay bid for a recorder to relace my old broken one. Life is good.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 11:04 AM

Interesting - Just a fact from me on the whole subject.

Forgiveness is nothing more than giving up hope that yesterday is going to change.

Long as I don't forgive I give the power of my life to the one I refuse to forgive. Doesn't mean I'll forget. I think I need to remember. I'm getting too old and too tired to stay angry for all that long. I do get twisted up momentarily at those that verbally spit on veterans in general and denigrate their service. Like someone above said - we all served in one manner or another.

Hoping you all are having a good day -

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Nov 02 - 10:57 AM

Thank you, GUEST, you said it better than I did.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 02 - 08:28 AM

No, Ireland, I'm not saying these people are lying-there are gonna be assholes in every endeavor. But you can't really beleive that everyone who was against the war was like that, can you? I think that what gets lost in all this is that those against the war were really on the soldiers side. ( at least I was)It was the system that sent young men to die rather than find a more intelligent way to solve problems. I realize that sometimes war is necessary, but sometimes it has to be questioned also.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Nov 02 - 08:18 AM

Troll:

I ain't buy that "wuff'wuff" stuff either. I think I represent pretty well the thoughts of those who worked tirelessly to end the war in Vietnam and as such have *my duty* as a memeber of the accused (*spitters*) to stand up here and confront a *lie* that has been allowed to take form and settle in as a general statement of truth.

Sure some folks got spit on. Heck, the spitting went both ways. Its still here, where when I stand up to the lie, you figurately *spit* on me in front of the entire Mudcat kindom. But you troll, do not represent the Vietnam vet in general but just that small minority of vets who have bought into big *spit lie*. I, on the other hand, being a memebr of the anit-war movement know that it would have been a very small nmber within that held any service man accountable for the decisions made by 4 presidents (5, if you include Ike)

There are unstable folks everywhere who do not represent the majoirty and for which the majority should not be defined because of a few folks bad behavior.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Nov 02 - 07:42 AM

Hi Troll:
Yes and no.... I was speaking with a fellow who landed at Normandy the other day, and found something interesting... he could not watch films about WWII, but could watch other war films. My friend Thomas who was a prisoner on the Burma Railway cannot watch Bridge on the River Kwai (though he thinks it is a stupid movie). I cannot watch films about the North of Ireland... tried watching Bloody Sunday and wept uncontrollably through it... because no other experience is more intense than one's personal view of war. But there is the emotional knowledge and then there is the knowledge that all citizens should acquire in a democracy, which is a familiarity with the facts behind our wars so we can make an informed decision and that needs some cross talk with those of us who have personal and emotional experience of war.
Some may have been spit on by anti war folds ... from my personal experience the anti war movement had huge numbers of vets in it, members of Viet Nam Veterans Against the War, an organisation whose members I stay in touch with to this day, and who do draft counseling at the start of wars that may see a draft. But, the real spiting on the vets came from a government which waged war than dropped the wounded vets, wounded in body or mind, onto the streets of America, into the jails of America, into neglect. They are the real MIAs, while Sylvester Stallone (who taught in a Swiss girl's school during the war) promotes the myth that the VC are keeping American slaves in VN, causing the majority to overlook the MIA on their doorstep while imagining slave labour camps over there.
Peace and healing friend
Hope to see ya in New York again soon
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Troll
Date: 13 Nov 02 - 05:34 AM

Yes G*dDamnit some of us were spit on. Thank you SO much GUEST for allowing that it "may" have happened. That just makes everything ok.
Bobert, you have the right, under the Constitution, to say anything you like. But if you weren't in Viet Nam, THEN YOU DON'T KNOW. PERIOD.
It doesn't matter how many friends you lost or how politically aware you were or how hard you worked to end the war. You cannot begin to understand so don't even try. Stick to what you KNOW.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: NicoleC
Date: 13 Nov 02 - 12:32 AM

I may have to pick up this book. The link above to the author's comments show a well-thought out discourse on how modern myth can shape our impressions of reality.

Since I spent the end of the war in diapers, I found his remarks about Hollywood having shaped the images of war particularly appropriate. I have no real first-hand experience with the effects of the war. I was brought up with the idea that the vets were universally hated and reviled, and even though I've never seen specific proof or talked to a single person who felt so, I honestly have never questioned it. (The Vietnamese involved, of course, were never discussed.) And I guess my mental image of a Vietnam vet really *is* Forrest Gump and the crazy pilot in Independance Day, even if logically I understand that these are just stereotypes.

I think the wide range of experiences recounted above show that vets did not all have the same homecoming experience and were not universally reviled... and yet the spitting image is so powerful, it lingers.

Then again, the only place I've ever seen someone spit on another person is in a movie.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Ireland
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 11:43 PM

What are you saying guest these people are lying?

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 10:23 PM

Now, I haven't read this thread but so I'm just gonna wade into it blindly.

First, I graduated from Massanutten Military Academy in 1965 and any graduate with three years of MST (Military Science Training) could go right to Nam as a 2nd Lt. and, out of my graduating class many did. Out of the little more than a hundred of my friends at Massanutten, *8* died in Nam. That's a lot! Throw in one cousin and another who stepped on a mine and almost died and lost a leg and my best friend in grade school, I think I can say I know the horrors of VN.

Now, back in the 60's I was promotin' a rock club in Richmond, Va. and we let it be known to our brothers at Ft Lee, in Petersburg, that they were not only welcome but we let 'em in free. And we we're alone. The struggle was not between those of us who were in the streets tryin' to stop the VN War and our brothers who were caught up in Boss Hog's little game but with Boss Hog.

Now this scared the Hell out of Boss Hog, just as it scares Boss Hog today but in the words of the phophet: Tough Sh*t! Yeah, there will be those true believers who will buy into your trumped up lies that there is a division between the folks fighting in the streets of Bagdad and Washington, D.C. but there *AIN'T*!

That dog won't hunt!

Sure, there are folks around here, like Claymore, who are conservative Repubs who will step to the plate and say that, since I didn't shoot at Vietnamese people, that I don't have a right to say anything.

Bullsh*t. That's partisan, "true believer" politics and nothin' more, thank you.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 10:07 PM

What always puzzled me was that everyone I knew who was against the war was against the System that Sent young men to war NOT the young men themselves. Most of them went against their will(the draft). What people were protesting against was not the soldiers but the system. That has been twisted around with stories like the "spitting" incidents. It is possible it happened, but I doubt it was the norm by any means. My heart goes out (and always did) to the young guys who had to endure those circumstances. And God help us, here we go again.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 09:51 PM

Okay, now here's one from a former member of the Illinois NATIONAL GUARD.

On May 13, 1968 my NG unit was called "for up to two years federal active duty." In September, 1968, the unit (including my brother, who was the supply clerk) was sent to Chu Lai, South Vietnam (I was eventually sent to Korea, where I served with the Seventh Infantry Division). The unit drove 5K gallon tankers full of things like JP-4 fuel up and down Highway 1 -- and yes, they were ambushed. Like myself, some of the guys were seperated and served in other units, like the 4th Inf. Div., the 9th Inf. Div, 1 Cav., etc. Of those activated, none were killed (although some were wounded). Yes, some of those who were assigned to the unit after it was in-country were killed in both heroic and decidedly non-heroic circumstances.

In August, 1969 we were returned "to State control." Reunited by in our hometown, we all eventually returned to civilian life.

I restarted college, which the callup had interrupted. My reception by the "Peace And Freedom Coalition" folks was, ah, mixed. And I can tell you from experience that flying in uniform from Sea-Tac airport to O'Hare whilst the remains of Woodstock dribbled into the West Coast was something I wouldn't want anyone to experience.

Someone in college DID spit on my brother because of his duty in VN. This was not a good idea and cost the spitter some teeth and considerable pain.

While my brother was in VN, my other brother, who was a flying spy for the Air Force, couldn't go. The second brother eventually spent 18 months in SEA; one of the things he did was fly airborne intelligence for the Son Thuy raid.

One person said thanks. I'm still married to her.

The scars are still often tender, but I don't hate anyone. As was said before, the grunts (and I was light weapons infantry) were the people most against the war -- for them, it was personal.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 08:04 PM

I don't think this is just about scars healing. It is about forgiveness needing to take place. Let us say theoretically, that every claim of/by vets being spat upon were true. And every claim by vets that they were treated like second class citizens is true. And let us say theoretically that the only segment of society treating vets in this manner, were anti-war activists.

A couple of theoretical questions: 1) for vets who feel they have not yet healed this emotional wound within themselves, what can society do to make it happen? 2) are vets willing and ready to forgive those who wounded them, so that they themselves can have closure on that part of their lives?

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Gareth
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 07:29 PM

Sapper 82 - I may not totally agree with you on the causes of the Viet-Nam conflict - and history will relate that Imperial Japnese Troops were rearmed under British ad later French control to "disarm" and control the Vietnemese Gurillers (sp) under Ho Chi Min and Giap (1945 onwards)

The Viet Cong and more importantly the NVLA, were no angels, and by any defnition terrorists.

I suspect tho if free elctions had been enforced in the mid 50's the history of that prt of Asia might have been totally different. But then History is so much 'What If ????'

Now before his mind went I was trying to record the experiences of my late father wth the objective of writing them up for publication. This was a man who went from Normandy to Kiel the hard way in 1944/5 30 corps support unit, 91st(Anti Tank)( Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders) A mixture of 17pdr M10's, Towed 17pdrs, AA Crusaders, and White (USA) Halftracks armed with quad 0.5" Brownings.

Unit function - to back up Armour and Infantry with specialised and heavier weapons. ( A 17 pdr could kill a Panther or Tiger, the 6pdr or 75 mm guns of your standard Churchill or Sherman could not, and the concentrated fire of the 20mm Oerlicons of the Crusaders and the 0.5" of the half track could rip a dug in gun position to peices)

I have seen him reduced to tears twice. Once when mentioning what they found at Belson - his troop was one of the first units in. And secondly when he described catching a German Horse drawn artillery unit somewhere between the Rhine and Minden. He was given orders to destroy it. As he said, he didn't mind killing the Wehrmacht, they were out to kill him - but the horses were another matter. 20mm and 0.5" Browning rounds butcher horses, but not that quickly or cleanly.

Interestingly one of his Sargents deal with a group of gaurds at Belson in summery fashion. He told me he had a quick and nasty "cover up" to do - Shot whilst attempting to escape was his report. Fortunately none of his superiors was that inclined to enquire further, if they had, would that have made him a war criminal ???

No - all credit to all Veterans. And from this side of the pond mat all those scars heal, and quickly.

Gareth
Dulce et Dulchoram est,
Pro Patria Morie

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 05:02 PM

I'm refreshing this, as it seems germane to the concerns expressed by some Mudcatters in other Veteran's Day threads, that others are insensitively "attacking" vets on Veteran's Day.

Maybe this would make a good candidate for perma-threads or at least for linking with other Veteran's Day threads.

We need not keep covering the same ground over and over, but if people want to do it, maybe reviving this thread is the way to go for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: InOBU
Date: 10 May 00 - 07:45 AM

Dear Rick:
I had a criminal law professor at NYU, who once said, When you use a bamb, it is always a depraved heart killing.
The baby killing was not just crazies killing kids in retaliation for the damage of war, in fact, I agree with those who said that seldom happened. However, Naplam, landmines, all the many indescriminating ways we killed in Viet Nam killed kids, and I brand that the for of murder refered to as depraved heart killing. Whats more, I dont hold the individual soldier responcible, because it was this democratic nation that launched the killing. We as a nation were child killers, and for a rather piss poor reason.
I have to repete, that when the Vets returned, the real baby killers, the US government, THEY turned their backs on the vets, not the anti war movement. The government spit on the vets and the government policies killed the kids - theirs and ours.
In hopes of a democratic future, you old red pal...
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 09 May 00 - 11:49 PM

Mary G, I simply don't think you share in what the occasional insane person did (or ordered others to do)

Every country's military train their kids to be objective killers. I doubt if "sensitive" soldiers are really wanted in any army.

Emotionally damaged people can become privates, and rise through the ranks to become officers, generals, Presidents, Popes and Kings. They aren't in the majority but when they are given authority, everyone suffers.

The Peace Movement (of which I was a part) contained psychopaths, as dangerous as any in a uniform. When they rose to prominence, they easily counselled murder. Once again, they were not in the majority.

Sometimes the killing DOES stop. There are good people who have been taught to use violence, and good people who resist it. Sadly we don't find out about the "bad' ones til it's too late.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: lloyd64
Date: 09 May 00 - 11:34 PM

Sorry to say, yes.

Lloyd

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: GUEST,mary g
Date: 09 May 00 - 11:05 PM

I think we could have done without the "babykillers" post here. I was an army officer. Put me on your list of "babykillers". I share in what anyone did, or what you think they did. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 09 May 00 - 08:53 AM

I don't know much about it, so maybe I just bought the hype. It sounded like a worthwhile try, though. We need to come up with some way to break the cycle of vengeance created by long periods of conflict, in so many parts of the world. Maybe this is a good blueprint to follow, maybe it's not. But I liked the idea, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: canoer
Date: 08 May 00 - 01:58 PM

Re the Truth & Rec Commission, a good friend was there working on the transition to "non-racial" government during the period in question. Basically the TRC was one more way of trying to persuade the dispossessed to settle for one slice of bread instead of the whole loaf. In her opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 08 May 00 - 08:24 AM

McGrath, I'm glad you mentioned the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa. I don't know whether anything along those lines would help us Americans with our lingering Vietnam baggage, particularly after all this time has gone by. But I am very impressed with this approach to healing deep wounds from a long period of conflict and injustice. I know it isn't perfect -- I've heard some criticisms from the people of South Africa, more or less saying that the voluntary nature of the thing means that people who should be part of it are still shielded from full disclosure, and that some of the participants just pay lip service to the process in order to get a free ride. But even an imperfect attempt is worth something, and I think South Africans will be better off for it.