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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 25 Dec 01 - 10:05 PM What we need to know now is where your information came from. As Bruce mentioned earlier in this thread, the earliest known printed version of this song is of 1881; Barney, to which it is clearly related, being apparently earlier. It would appear that no author has ever been identified for either song, and there is no evidence that My Bonnie is in any way Scottish. At this stage I see no reason to think that it was not an American composition, perhaps based on a vaudeville "Stage Irish" Barney.
I would certainly be very interested to see any verifiable information about its origins, as I'm sure would a great many people; it's not an interesting song textually or musically, but it's so widely known that we really ought to know more about it. The trouble is that so many people simply accept uncritically the myths about it (if it's a Jacobite song, for example, then I'm Atilla the Hun) and repeat hearsay as fact.
Toadfrog has now posted a set of lyrics for My Barney in the more recent thread: BARNEY
It may be helpful to look at them for purposes of comparison, though of course there is no guarantee that they have not at some point been mixed with the better-known song. |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Louie Roy Date: 25 Dec 01 - 02:24 PM ADD MY BONNIE LIES OVER THE OCEAN I POSTED THIS IN ANOTHER THREAD AND THE INFO I HAVE LISTS THIS AS A SCOTCH TUNE DATED 1880 WITHOUT THE AUTHORS NAME AND THESE ARE THE ORIGINAL LYRICS
MY BONNIE LIES OVER THE OCEAN,BR. MY BONNIE LIES OVER THE SEA
LAST NIGHT AS I LAY ON MY PILLOW |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Coyote Breath Date: 25 Dec 01 - 02:14 PM Scots bard, Sinsull ever notice when one places tounge in cheek the serious threaders all ignore you? I thought the Pogo versions was: "My body lice sober devotion My body lice sober DC etc." I have all the pogo books somewhere (unless one of my children have absconded with them, they've gotten my JRR Tolkein boxed sets and my personal copies of Nosferatu. I believe they think they are helping themselves to avoid the 'death tax') I'll see if I can find the episode with "My Body Lice Sober Devotion" in it. CB |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: masato sakurai Date: 25 Dec 01 - 12:12 AM The Traditional Ballad Index has this entry. ~Masato |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 20 May 00 - 02:21 PM The leader discography above of Cecelia Costello's songs on LEE (not LEA) 4054 is missing "My Johnny" as the last on side A after "The Handsome Cabin Boy", and "The Frog and the Mouse" the first on side B. |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 20 May 00 - 12:42 AM There seem to be two missing from the Leader discography, but I'm not at home at present to check on it. I know Cecelia Costello's song is there. I listened to it today. Her lyrics are also printed on the brochure that came with the record. (The songs were obtained from the BBC archives recordings.) What we haven't had yet is a tune comparison. This is frequently the clincher as to whether a song is really based an another, or whether it just borrowed a few lines from it.
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 19 May 00 - 09:48 PM Is it English or Scottish? So far, Tamara, we haven't been able to establish that it isn't American! It certainly is one of the most-parodied songs you could hope to find, though these parodies all seem to have originated no earlier than the turn of the century, and I'm guessing (without documented evidence for or against) that song and tune both came to the UK from America. Until somebody finds real evidence of the song -Barney or Bonny- existing anywhere at all before the 1870s, I think that we have to assume that. Incidentally, Cecilia Costello's My Johnny, which Bruce mentions earlier (Leader Records LEA 4054), doesn't appear on the track-listing in the Leader Records Discography at Leader Records Discography (Please tell them if they're wrong, Bruce! They'll be glad to know.) There is a recording available on one of Peter Kennedy's Folktracks cassettes, though: The Greenwood Side-I-O (Cecilia Costello and Sam Bennett) where it is called My Barney (lies over the ocean).... Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: SINSULL Date: 19 May 00 - 04:48 PM And from my son'd third grade class"
My Bonnie has appendicitis The "folk process" in action. |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Scotsbard Date: 19 May 00 - 04:40 PM OK, thread drift warning ... but I've always been partial to the POGO version:
My Bonnie lye soda devotion,
(cho) ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: GUEST,Tamara Date: 19 May 00 - 03:04 PM I'd like to know a bit more on if "My Bonnie" is English or Scottish. Every songbook that I have seen says Scot. and Alex Beaton (a great scottish folk-singer),jokes that when the English got a hold of it the song became "O How The Money Rolls In"!!! Tamara |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: L R Mole Date: 19 May 00 - 01:11 PM I agree with the "My Barney" hypothesis but feel the song is in reality far older; my reference shelf seems to dispute over a stuffed purple dinosaur or one Mr. Rubble. |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Wolfgang Date: 19 May 00 - 08:48 AM I hate it if information is repeated as in my second post. SORRY. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 18 May 00 - 11:16 PM Cecilia Costello' version, "My Johnny", is sung by her on an LP, Leader LEE 4054 (with 13 of her other songs also). |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 18 May 00 - 09:12 PM Ickle Dorrit: Maybe I'm just too tired, but I can't find any connection between "My Bonny" and "George Campbell" at Lesley's site. I did eventually find a link to a brief discussion of "My Bonny" in the Ballads discussion list, where somebody suggested a link to the Young Pretender; without giving any evidence beyond hearsay, unfortunately. (here). Steve Roud's contribution, here, seemed more convincing. The Watersons' version of Barney (as pointed to by Wolfgang) and Cecilia Costello's Johnny (Sandy Paton's link) certainly appear to be the same song, though no tune is given with the DT entry. The 1919 Barney that Bruce mentions is of course a parody, quoting just pieces of the familiar tune. To confuse the issue further, there is another song at the Music for the Nation collection, My Barney Is Out On The Sea, which appears to be an entirely different song (words Arthur N. French, music C. A. White; 1876) on the same theme, with a very Victorian Parlour feel to it. Without any evidence, I'd guess that this may be a "spin-off" from the better-known song, written to cash in on its success? This is getting interesting, and I do hope that somebody will be able to take us further! Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Sandy Paton Date: 17 May 00 - 11:28 PM I'm amazed! |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Sandy Paton Date: 17 May 00 - 11:24 PM Before this thread dies away completely, let me point out the song collected from the wonderful Cecilia Kelly Costello, traditional singer from Birmingham, England, (of Irish extraction): "Bring Back My Johnny to Me." It was published in 1953 in the Journal of the English Folk Dance and Song Society. It was recorded by Isla Cameron on her Prestige Best of Isla Cameron and by Joe Hickerson on his first Folk-Legacy album, now available only as a cassette (but with the booklet of notes)- C-39. The relationship to "My Bonnie" may be a bit tenuous, but I suspect there is one. Mrs. Costello's song is in the DT. CLICK HERE. For the Folk-Legacy recording, CLICK HERE. If either of those clickies work, I'll be amazed! Sandy |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Little Neophyte Date: 17 May 00 - 10:52 PM Irish Rover, that is the most respectable thing someone has ever said about me when it comes to making up their own verses for this song. Little Bonnie |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Irish Rover Date: 17 May 00 - 06:11 PM My Bonnie lies in toronto. chuckle |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: GUEST,Ickle Dorritt (fedupwithlosinghercookieyet Date: 17 May 00 - 03:39 PM Malcolm www.contemplator.com |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Wolfgang Date: 17 May 00 - 09:34 AM A.L. Lloyd's note to 'Barney' on the Watersons LP: "A stage song favoured by Irish comedians from the 1860s on. During the 1880s, apparently on American University campuses, close harmony groups remade it in to the better-known—and even more preposterous—My Bonny lies over the ocean. Watersons had this from Bob Davenport who learnt it from a Frank Quinn 78." Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Wolfgang Date: 17 May 00 - 09:31 AM for comparison: Barney as sung by the Watersons. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: GUEST,Tamara Date: 17 May 00 - 09:19 AM Bruce O., Whew! What a relief! Thanks for your input. Blessings, Tamara |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 16 May 00 - 06:59 PM "My Barney" or "Bring back my Barney to me" is #1422 in Steve Roud's folksong index, where several traditional and songbook versions are cited (earliest songbook noted- 1872). In 'Sam Henry's Songs of the People', p. 290, the editors say that the song should not be confused with "Bring back my Bonnie to me".
It looks like a judgement call as to how the two songs are related. In my opinion: distantly- yes, closely- ?. So I can't say someone is right and someone is wrong. "My Barney lies over the ocean", 1919, in the Levy sheet music collection could have been inspired by either. |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 16 May 00 - 04:53 PM Where did you find that? At the moment, my money's still on Bert Lloyd's story, but I'd be interested in more info, too. Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Linda Kelly Date: 16 May 00 - 04:37 PM now then, had a quick search and it appears that this may have been dedicated to Bonnie George (James) Campbell who died in the Battle of Glenlivet in 1564. see also child ballad #210. This means what my teachers told me was possibly not correct -my whole childhood has been a lie! |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Linda Kelly Date: 16 May 00 - 04:14 PM to be honest I'm not sure, it was one of those songs that we learnt at school and its origins were explained at that time, although it would seem to make some sense. how true it is I would not like to say.Have tried to find out some more about it but so far no success. |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: GUEST,Tamara Date: 16 May 00 - 04:01 PM Thanks to everyone who responded! Very diverse, as usual. Ickle Dorritt, I'm curious to know your where you found your info? Thanks again, Tamara |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 16 May 00 - 03:43 PM Re; Murray's Request. Fuld, 1966, says it first appeared in Wm. H. Hills 'Student's Songs', 2nd ed (Jan. 15, 1881). It wasn't in the 1st edition of 1880. No composer or lyricist was given, and none is known.
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: GUEST,Murray on Saltspring Date: 16 May 00 - 03:22 PM I've seen this somewhere credited to an author and/or composer--but that doesn't mean much. It isn't a Scottish song; "bonnie", e.g., is widely used in the North of England. Can someone look this up in Fuld's book of World-Famous Music?? |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Linda Kelly Date: 16 May 00 - 02:49 PM My Bonnie refers to Bonnie Prince Charlie who escaped to France to avoid the wrath of the English . Presumably this was sung by Flora McDonald who was his main squeeze. |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 16 May 00 - 01:21 PM The musician and folklorist A.L. Lloyd had this to say about a song called My Barney, recorded by The Watersons on their album For Pence And Spicy Ale: "A stage song favoured by Irish comedians from the 1860s on. During the 1880s, apparantly on American University campuses, close-harmony groups remade it into the better-known -and even more preposterous- My Bonny Lies Over The Ocean. (The) Watersons had this from Bob Davenport who learned it from a Frank Quinn 78." Malcolm |
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Subject: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: GUEST,Tamara Date: 16 May 00 - 10:07 AM Hi there! I really appreciate all of the info posted concerning the history and origins of folk songs. Does anyone know the story behind "My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean"? I know its Scottish and I was gyessing that ti might be a "code" song from the time of the Jacobite Rebellions. Any imput would be appreciated. Also, any other verses? Thanks! Tamara |
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