Origins: Ring around the Rosy / Rosey

Subject: RE: Origins: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 11:37 PM

This happy little game could be related to "Merry-ma-tansie," the marriage game in Scotland- "a happy wedding song" as Lighter insists. One of the verses is-

Twice about and then we fall,
Then we fall, then we fall,
Twice about and then we fall,
Around the merry-ma-tansie.

An old variant in America-
A ring, a ring, a ransy,
Buttermilk and tansy,
Flower here and flower there,
And all- squat!

More verses, but I think they have appeared in Mudcat already.

Subject: RE: Origins: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 10:50 PM

No, no, no. It's a happy wedding song.

Subject: RE: Origins: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 07:37 PM

More of that plague nonsense. It really is a song about hay fever and ash ma (asma, azma, asthma). Atch-oo!

(In Middle English, asma; but scholars Greekified it)

Subject: RE: Origins: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 06:11 PM

No, no, no, it's a happy wedding song.

Subject: RE: Origins: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: GUEST,the black death
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 05:51 PM

Ring around the rosie- the red "mark" 1st sign that you had the plague.
pocket full of posies- The flowers that People carried to the smell of the bodies down.
Ashes ashes- They burned the bodies sence no one wanted to bury them.
Or Achoo Achoo- the snezzing that came with the plague.
We all fall down- The plague spared no one. Rich, poor, old or young it would kill you..
This is the real meaning of the childhood song that we sang.

Subject: RE: Origins: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: GUEST,teh balck death
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 05:41 PM

Subject: RE: Origins: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 11:52 AM

But Guest, Guest, I just proved it's a happy song. If kids don't sing it, the idea of marriage could come under threat.

Subject: RE: Origins: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: thespionage
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 11:44 AM

I had heard the black plague. If you'd like to know the origins of Arlo Guthrie's "Ring-Around-A-Rosy Rag," let me know. : )

Russ
Practitioner of Thespionage and Folk Music

Subject: RE: Origins: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 02:03 AM

I think the concept of ring around the rosey being about the black death in the 16th century is appalling. How could such a terrible thing that called so many innocent people be turned into a sweet nursey rhyme for little kids to jump around and sing too. They are representing a song of death. Why and how could people allow this song of death be changed into a kids song? would you want your kids falling down on the ground when it means they drop dead? Maybe im wrong but this is my opinion the song should not be allowed to be written in childrens books, it should be in history books instead!

Subject: RE: Origins: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: The Unicorn Man
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 01:34 PM

Yes.

Subject: RE: Origins: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 12:07 PM

We all know the little finger is called the "pinky." Well, the third finger was once called the "rosey." That's right! During medieval wedding ceremonies, the groom was always asked to put the "ring around the rosey!" Yes, he was ! "Posies" refer to the wedding bouquet, and the ashes are what was left of the fire after the huge dinner later. "We all fall down" because we're all tipsy from eating and drinking.

Doesn't everybody know this? Must I "discover" these things myself?

Yours,

L. in a parallel universe

Subject: RE: Origins: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 12:00 PM

Martin - the reason I asked was because the discussion in the thread pretty much shows that there is no evidence whatsoever that 'Ring around a rosie" is about the plague.

Subject: RE: Origins: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: The Unicorn Man
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 11:56 AM

MMario I must confess not, I was in a bit of a rush when I wrote that. What have I got wrong? I promise to read every single thread, but not until Saturday. I am interested in this cos I have written a song about it. And guess what it is called! That's right "Ring of Roses" I will read the threads and get back to you.

Subject: RE: Origins: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: GUEST,Dummy from Brummie
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 12:04 PM

I believe everything I am told. Unless it is on the thread to which I am posting. Then I don't bother to read it.

Subject: RE: Origins: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 08:57 PM

Cuckoo and cuckold are related words. Cuckold derives from the cuckoo's practice of laying an egg in another bird's nest. Usage found in the 13th century.

Cuckoo, applied to an insane person, originally was U. S. slang and is first found in print in 1918. Not admitted to the Oxford English Dictionary until the 1987 edition. Even as late as Gomme's time, an Englishman would relate the word in the rhyme to a cuckolding.

Subject: RE: Origins: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 08:15 PM

Though it's also a little depressing to see people repeating modern hearsay without bothering to read what has already been said. Genuinely new information is always welcome, but old stuff repeated in ignorance is a waste of everybody's time.

Subject: RE: Origins: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 05:34 PM

It really doesn't matter which version you believe, there being no real evidence for any of them. Still it's nice to see so many catters enjoying themselves trying to unscrew the inscrutable.

DT

Subject: RE: Origins: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: GUEST,Lighter at work
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 05:33 PM

Q,the mentally ill were customarily burned at the stake too, hence the crowd's cry of "Cuckoo! Cuckoo!"

Subject: RE: Origins: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 02:13 PM

Martin - have you read the rest of the thread?

Subject: RE: Origins: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: The Unicorn Man
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 02:12 PM

My version of all this is. "Ring a ring a roses" Meaning red rash all over the body where the plague had attacked. "Pocket full of posey's" meaning as Willa and others have said is the remedy they tried. Petals on the rash to try and calm it. "Tishoo Tishoo they all fall down" Meaning catching a cold and then finally falling down with the fever.

Subject: RE: Origins: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 01:20 PM

Collected from Yorkshire (Gomme, 1894, 1898, vol. 2, "The Traditional Games of England, Scotland and Ireland," Ring a Ring o' Roses IV, p. 109.

Ring, a ring o' roses,
A pocket full of posies;
Up-stairs and down-stairs,
In my lady's chamber-
Husher! Husher! Cuckoo!

The year 1502. Rose was having a go with the coachman up in her chambers. All the servants went around saying "Hush! Hush!" but of course the story was repeated in the tavern and the husband heard it. He reported her to the church and town councilors and she was bound for trial. Following conviction for adultry and harlotry, she was condemmed and taken to the town square, where she was burned at the stake.

After that, the last line was changed to "Ashes! Ashes!"

(Anonymous authority)

Subject: RE: Origins: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: GUEST,Not High
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 12:47 PM

Coincidence? Or somebody's wishful thinking?

We sang this song when we were tots and, regardless, no one seemed to connect it with the plague. Any child who does has been brainwashed by a paranoid grownup in the background.

Subject: RE: Origins: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: GUEST,Di
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 10:02 PM

how can this nursery rhyme be a coincidence? seems to be to many similarities. your all high! get a clue

Subject: RE: Origins: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: GUEST,Sher
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 08:31 PM

Well, I just read through all of the threads (from beginning to end). I can see why people would find it easy to believe in the Black Plague Theory. But alas, if some of you, whom seem to have put your first entry over two years ago haven't found any evidence then I doubt I'll find any soon. I have a two-year-old and so my interest has thus been sparked because I'm not sure if I want her to sing it. But if I don't let her I want it to be because there is evidence that it is an incantation or a rhyme about half the world's population dying from some dreadful disease (even tough it seems I can dismiss this theory). Yes, I find I now tend to think about some of this folklore a little differently now that I have an impressionable little one myself.

Subject: RE: Origins: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 11:34 PM

I've heard it two ways as a child.
The first version ended with the ashes, ashes part but the second version ended with red bird, blue bird we all fall down. My grandmother didn't like us singing this when we were children because she said it was related to witches incantations. I don't know where she got that idea from seeing as how everyone "believes" it was about the plague. Go figure...

Subject: RE: Origins: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 11:52 AM

Guest, you have the best information anywhere in this thread. There is no more at this time. Echo MMario.

Subject: RE: Origins: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: MMario
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 11:02 AM

guest - the 'best guess' seems to be "no one knows" - but it is almost definately *NOT* about the black plague. Alot of information is in this thread and related ones - you might have more specific questions if you read through the various arguments.

Subject: RE: Origins: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 08:15 PM

Can someone please tell me what "ring around the rosey" originated from?

Subject: RE: Origins: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 01:22 AM

A refreshing note of realism from Q, important in a discussion of this kind, prone as it is to flights of bizarre and unsubstantiated fantasy.

Claudia, for example, has just referred to another very unlikely interpretation; unfortunately without any information of any kind as to who might have suggested it. Sad to say, it will certainly be picked up and quoted as "fact" by future fantasists. I'd be grateful if she would give us a proper citation ("said to be"? By whom? Where, and when?) What dance? Documented where? When? She appears to be describing a typical sword dance, but there is, so far as I know, no record of any kind of any association with the rhyme to be found in any known tradition; though I don't doubt that one or more "happy guessers" has mixed them up some time in recent years, quite possibly insisting because it ought to have been true that there is some real basis for their flight of fancy.

Evidence, please; or at the very least, a reference to something a little more substantial than one person's hearsay.

Subject: RE: Origins: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 11:21 PM

In view of the constantly recurring speculations, it seems a good idea to post a variety of the versions, with dates. The earliest dated "Ring Around the Rosie" is ca. 1790 (and this reference can't be found now) as suggested in this rhyme from Massachusetts:

Ring a ring a rosie,
A bottle full of posie,
All the girls in our town,
Ring for little Josie.

Published 1883:
Round the ring of roses,
Pots full of posies,
The one who stoops last
Shall tell whom she loves best.

Also published 1883:
Ring around the rosie,
Squat among the posies,
Ring around the roses,
Pockets full of posies,
One, two, three- *squat!
(this one still used in Georgia in the 1930s. "Last one squats will be old Josie" is the end of one from Texas. Also see the one from Switzerland)

1840s, acc. to W. W. Newell:
A ring, a ring, a raney
Buttermilk and tansy,
Flower here and flower there,
And all- squat!

The above all from W. W. Newell, Games and Songs of American Children, 1883, (1903), Dover reprint.

Now a few from the other side; from the Opies, "The Singing Game."
1880s, Lancashire:
A ring, a ring o'roses
A *pocket full o' posies- *or bottle
Atch chew! atch chew!

1881, Greenaway, Mother Goose:
Ring-a ring-a-roses,
A pocket full of posies;
Hush~ hush! hush! hush!
We're all tumbled down

Shropshire, 1883:
A ring, a ring o' roses,
A pocket full o' posies,
One for Jack and one for Jim
And one for Little Moses!
A curchey in, and a curchey out,
And a curchey all together.
(Children curtsey at end. See the Italian one)

ca. 1900, Italy:
Gira, gira, rosa,
Co la più: bela in mezo,
Gira un bel giardino,
Un altro pochetino;
Un salterelo,
Un altro de più belo;
Una riverenza,
Un'altra per penitenza;
Un baso a chi ti vol.
---
Ring a ring a roses
With the most beautiful in the middle;
Ring a pretty garden,
Another circle round,
A little skip,
Another even better,
A curtsy,
Another for penitence;
A kiss for the one you like.

1857, Switzerland:
Ring-a, ring-a, row,
The children go into the greenwood,
They dance around the rosebush
And all *squat down.

Above all from Iona and Peter Opis, 1985," pp. 219-227, "The Singing Game."

A simple little children's game, with its many variants, has picked up all sorts of baggage from speculation. The rhyme is lost under the load. Even the Opies couldn't resist and piled on their own supercargo-
"Thus in 'Ring a Ring o' Roses,' we have, or so it seems, a spray from the great Continental tradition of May games, that preserves the memory, however faintly, of the rose as the flower of Cupid, the wreath of roses with which Aphrodite crowned her hair, ...."


Now the relation to-
Ring me, ring me, ring me rary,
As I go round, ring by ring,
A virgin goes a-Maying,
Here's a flower ...... etc.

Subject: RE: Origins: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From:
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 09:46 PM

In all the discussion of 'Ring around the Rosey', I read no mention of another isource and interpretation that I have come across. Namely that it has its sources in ancient Europe traditions- preserrved by the revelries of the Mummers.
   The interpretation appears to be esoteric, and related to the many traditions around (the (mystical aspect of ) the rose. 'Ring around a rosary' is one version I've heard. The posies were said to be a reference to the fairy realm. In the dance associated with the rhyme, the dancers formed a 5-pointed star and walked around a circle. (A multiple of 5 petals is a number associated with the rose family and also with esoteric thought re. 'quintescence') In the center was a symbolic victim - called a fool - and symbolically slain - to be resurected, after "falling down" by the dew of the rose - (or by the childrens playing!).
   Even if this interpretation cannot be substaniated, certainly there is some connection to the rose tradition in Europe and the protecting aspect of herbs (posies). I would like to hear a response from the group.

Subject: RE: Origins: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: masato sakurai
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 01:50 AM

I've found this version in J.P. McCaskey, ed., Franklin Square Song Collection, No. 4 (New York: Harper & Brothers, 1887, p. 101). The tune is a "Yankee Doodle" variant.

X:1
T:[Ring around a rosy]
M:2/4
L:1/8
K:A
A A B c|A2 E2|A A B c|A2 E2|
w:Ring a-round a ro-sy, Sit up-on a pos-y,
A A B c|(dc) (BA)|G E F G|A2 A2|]
w:All the girls in our_ town_ Vote for Un-cle Jo-sie.

Subject: RE: Origins: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: Nerd
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 02:30 PM

Well, we HAD until you revived this boring old thread!

Subject: RE: Origins: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: GUEST,the unknown
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 09:16 AM

ya'll need to grow up find something else to do better with ur time

Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 12:46 PM

Only one unsupported statement that puts the rhyme back as far as the late 1700s. All this has been gone over before, just read the thread.

Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: Nerd
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 11:45 AM

chrisnlisa03, please read the thread.

There is no "definitive" set of words to a folk rhyme; one of the essential characteristics of folklore is that it changes all the time.

There is usually no way to definitively establish the exact origin, either. Folklorists used to do research to establish the "Ur-form," what they believed to be the initial form a piece of folklore, and to establish its origin. Problem was, the results were always more or less speculative.

Beyond that, if you DO read the thread you'll find there is no evidence for the rhyme being as old as the Plague. Therefore the scholarly abilities of plague victims are irrelevant.

Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 11:43 AM

NO. and No.

Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: GUEST,chrisnlisa03
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 11:28 AM

is there an exact definitive source to once and for all determine not only the right WORDS in the song....but where the origin of the song came from? especially since not everyone at the time of the black plague may not have had scholarly abilities.

Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 04:17 PM

Well, you could always read the thread. Failing that:

1. No.

2. A small bunch of flowers.

Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From:
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 03:57 PM

I'd like to now if this song is a form of death song . So many people play it as a game , but don't think about the lyrics . I want to know what the word posey means.

Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: GUEST,the skin trader
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 04:58 PM

I was looking for a name for my "Vendor Cart" and thought that maybe a nice olde childrens dittie (the name that preceeds nursury rhyme) would be a nice way to go. Now it is remarkable that: first I even found this thread and actually read the most of it. And by the by since I will be selling skins, pelts and tails at renaisance faires. the (implied meaning behind) name "ring around the rosies" and for actual (believed) personnal pest control ashes and posies in ones pockets were of some actual possibility. Let alone eucalyptus and or glasses of water around the floors of your house to catch the bouncing flea. But the (as a result of finding out why skins and pelts and tails were indeed so popular with the middle aged climate of both peasant and royal dress. As it turns out tails were worn by the upper class women (those residing within the castle walls) to attract the flea and before ending their own day they would detach and shake it fervently over the moat to drop the fleas collected during their day. "Nice tail" takes on new meaning! But at the same time both the upper class men and peasants and farmers and lower classed survivors alike would wrap pelts around thyne own ankles laces by their ghillies to then at days end walk throught the streams and shires waters to evict their own vermin attracted during there days work. Pretty easy decision I think on my part. I believe my cart has a name! "Ring Around the Rosie"

Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jul 04 - 07:29 PM

If you all would really like to know where Ring Around the Rosey" comes from, it comes from around the WW2 era. The Jewish kids would sing it around the ashes of their dead kin folk that had been burned and gased... are you all happy now? It's a sadistic song that everyone teaches their kids.

Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: GUEST,Mad cow
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 01:05 AM

ITS THE PLAGUE!!!

actually its all bilbo baggins fault.
He was trying to write a song for his dear daughter, for he could not fathom why she was so bright with little spots.
He was sure surprised by his eyes when she dropped.

There, Case closed.

Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: masato sakurai
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 07:24 AM

This song (of course, only a part of it) seems to be based on the rhyme (from the Levy collection):

Title: I'll Make a Ring Around Rosie. Song.
Composer, Lyricist, Arranger: Words by William Jerome. Music by Jean Schwartz.
Jean Schwartz Publication: New York: Jerome H. Remick & Co., 1910.
Form of Composition: strophic with chorus
Instrumentation: piano and voice
First Line: Rosie, Rosie, she thinks a lot of me
First Line of Chorus: I'll make a ring around Rosie, I'll make a ring around Rose

Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 12:21 PM

jonilog, only thing I can think of are the left over shells of peas, husks or some such. Shells of clams, etc.? Of course childrens rhymes needn't make sense, only rhyme.
Any more variations out there waiting to be collected?

Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: Declan
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 10:59 AM

Lady P,

Surely thats what ring a ring a rosie is all about. Going around in circles until we all fall down !

Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: GUEST,jonilog
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 05:53 AM

The version of the rhyme common in Motherwell, Scotland was:
Ring a ring a Roses a cup a cup o' shell
The dogs away tae Hamilton tae buy a new bell
If ye cannae tak it I'll tak it tae mysel
A ring a ring a rosies a cup a cup o' shell

Don't ask me what it means ,I haven't a clue either. Its also the version my wife remembers from her childhood. We probably never heard the well known version till the introduction of television in the fifties.

Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 04:45 PM

Oh, my yes, Lady Penelope, we played shove ha'penny in many a tavern. "I wuz borned 'bout ten thousand yars ago!"
(Wasn't that said earlier by someone in this thread?) Yes, not much more to be said unless something new turns up.

Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 04:01 PM

"There is beggery in the love that can be reckoned...."

I'd say his handwriting let him down again, and what he actually wrote was

"There is bugger all in the love that can be reckoned...."

Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From:
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 03:44 PM

No disagreement with you, Lady P, just a reflection on how agree-to-disagree is used in other topics, for other purposes. The point was about argumentation, not about the argument at hand. And I wish you a nice day in return.