Origins: Well Below the Valley/Maid & Palmer

Subject: RE: Origins: Well below the valley - discuss!
From: GUEST,Bobby Bob, Ellan Vannin
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 06:59 AM

I thought that the basis of it is from St John, Chapter 4, Verses 4 to 42, where Jesus meets a Samaritan woman at Jacob's well and tells her she's been married five times previously and is now living with a man who isn't her husband.

However, as for the incest themes and lilies . . .


Bobby Bob

Subject: RE: Origins: Well below the valley - discuss!
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 06:35 AM

A palmer was a pilgrim- the symbol they carried, a palm leaf folded into a cross, was still handed out in (RC) church on Palm Sunday when I was a lad. Strangers aren't expected to know intimate deatails of family relationships, so there's something uncanny about him- a prophet or perhaps an epiphany of a saint. The American version has explicitly made him Jesus, and missed out (prudery?) explicit descriptions of the incest.

Do lilies grow in bushes, or is this in just for the sound? And how can a well be below a valley?

Subject: RE: Origins: Well below the valley - discuss!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 06:08 AM

I am inclined to guess that the Palmer Man, on the one hand, and the Well Below the Valley on the other hand are different songs from each other although some of the business is similar.

Am I not right that a Palmer was another name for a sin-eater?

That concept (critical surely to that song) is surely not to be found in the version of the Well below the Valley recorded by Jon Loomes, and the tunes are wholly dissimilar.

Subject: RE: Origins: Well below the valley - discuss!
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:23 PM

The song originally was "The Maid and the Palmer," take a look at an old version posted by Bruce O. in thread 9182. It may give you some ideas. Maid and the Palmer
An interesting comment indicating unmarried maids were doomed to lead apes in hell.

The song is Child 21. There are two versions in the DT. Other titles- see Traditional Ballad Index.
And the thread above, post by Joe Offer, links other versions or near-versions.

The current remakes being sung are pretty much simpified, but Christy Moore has put new words to the song that ain't bad.
I will post them in the Maid and the Palmer thread, to keep the lyrics together.

Subject: RE: Origins: Well below the valley - discuss!
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 04:09 PM

This gives a fairly good account and a starting point for you

Subject: RE: Origins: Well below the valley - discuss!
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 04:04 PM

Its a disturbin song no doubt will read the experts opinions with interest.

Subject: Origins: Well below the valley - discuss!
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 04:02 PM

I've started taking a closer look/listen at this extraordinary song - known it for years, but now wanting to sing it - and would be very interested to hear what others know/think about its symbolism etc.

It's pretty obvious what the song's about (incest, oppression, etc) and I've checked out a relevant thread here - but I'm wondering if anyone has more info about specifics - such as, who is the "gentleman"? (and how does he know so much about her secrets?), or who does he represent? - or is that too literal, and is he just a device for getting the story told?

What is the symbolism of things like the lily/bushes and the well? I could obviously make guesses at these, but if anyone knows or has researched this or has a link to some research, I'd love to hear.

What's the significance of their initial conversation, ie about the "cup", "drinking" (presumably at the well?), etc?

Here are the DT words:

A gentleman was passing by
He asked for a drink as he got dry
At the well below the valley-o
Green grows the lily-o
Right among the bushes-o

"Me cup is full unto the brim
If I were to stoop I might fall in"

"If your true love was passing by
You'd fill him a drink as he got dry"

She swore by grass, she swore by corn
That her true love had never been born

He said "Young maid, you swear in wrong
For six children you had born"

"If you be a man of noble fame
You'll tell to me the father of them"

"There's two of them by your uncle Dan"
"Another two by your brother John"
"Another two by your father dear"

"If you be a man of noble esteem
You'll tell to me what did happen to them"

"There's two buried 'neath the stable door"
"Another two near the kitchen door"
"Another two buried beneath the wall"

"If you be a man of noble fame
You'll tell to me what will happen to mysel' "

"You'll be seven years a-ringing the bell"
"You'll be seven more a-porting in hell"

"I'll be seven years a-ringing the bell
But the Lord above may save me soul from porting in hell.