BS: Plastic Paddy slur

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 01:10 PM

y'know there are all sorts of other words:

sarcasm

satire

parody

humorous intent

'plastic paddy' is an excellently alliterative term that may serve in all the above capacities, as well as insult.


There are as many shades of green as there are of gray.

Rob O'Matic

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 12:27 PM

At this point, perhaps we should resurrect the recent thread on "Boring Folk".   The instruction on that site for threads was: Sort by:   Vacuity or Contentiousness.

Also check out Robbie O'Connell's song (in the DT):   "You're Not Irish".

Though in my opinion even Danny Boy can be done very effectively--if you have the range for it, and do both verses.   The English attorney who wrote the poem did a great job.

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: meself
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 10:51 AM

Okay, now I'm confused: who are we supposed to be sneering at - and who is supposed to be taking our sneering in great good fun - the Irish-Americans who sing Danny Boy, or the non-Irish Americans who don't (but who are greater authorities on all things Irish)?

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: plnelson
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 10:22 AM

I live in the Boston area, where we have a huge ethnic-Irish population.

And when it comes to stupid, simplistic, superficial stereotypes of the Irish, many of these are among the worst offenders!   What it means to be "Irish" in much of Boston is to drink green beer on St Patrick's day and sing "Danny Boy" at the top of your lungs and wear a pin with a shamrock that says "Kiss me, I'm Irish".   They know little or nothing about traditional Irish music or instruments, Irish history, Irish writers or poets, Irish politics, etc.

We have very active folk and literary communities around here, too - and the members are a diverse range of ethnicities, but I would say mostly not Irish.   And I think the non-Irish folk and literary communities here are doing a better job of preserving Irish music and literature than most of the true ethnic Irish in Southie (an Irish part of Boston) are doing.    Somebody's gotta preserve Irish culture and history!

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 09:38 AM

Somebody alert the media! A British-Isles male (Bogle) has found another basis for despising other British-Isles males. We can now add 'paddyism' to the. list. So far we have seen Brits despise one another for:

ethnicity (Scottish, English, Welsh, etc)

income

accent

sex (Somebody can come along and say 'Shut up, you cow.')

hair color (Don't be a redhead if you know what's good for you.)

youth (Though contempt for children seems to be dying out.)

playing instrument that doesn't have enough prestige


===========
Now they can start trouble based on knowing the wrong kind of Irish song.

You know, I don't think the music is the problem, it's the after-effects of the beer drunk while listening to it. You know, the anger and sadness we learned about in school. The anger and sadness that follow the high.

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: GUEST,Allan Connochie
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 06:34 AM

Bogle received a lot of complaints from cat lovers about "Nobody's Moggie Now" which was a song about a squashed cat. In response to balance things he wrote another song about a squashed dog. He's obviously got more of a sense of humour than some posters have!

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 06:17 AM

Correct Ron.
The main problem is that there are a lot of, presumably rather unfulfilled, people just looking for things to be 'offended' by.
They'll be making an Olympic event out of 'Offence-Seeking' before long. And there'll be plenty of Mudcatters in the line-up for the first heat! :-) :-)
IMHO, and not wishing to 'offend' any rather unfulfilled people, of course! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 10:28 PM

If anybody actually read the lyrics to Eric's song it should be obvious what he's talking about. He's not running down all the songs he lists--though some might be seen as cliches.   He is talking about a wretched performer who can't or won't do justice any of the songs he sings--but still feels compelled to run through (no pun intended, of course) every song he can think of that might be popular at an Irish pub.

There's another excellent song, something to the effect of "You're not Irish, you can't be Irish--you don't know "Danny Boy"--which mentions a sizable list of songs thought to be traditional Irish by some pubgoers--but are definitely not.

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: GUEST,Don NC
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 08:18 PM

I never heard of the term used anywhere only here. Teribus introduced us to it.

I think it refers to Americans who descended from Irish emigrants.

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 06:32 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Bee-dubya-ell - PM
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 03:52 PM

Okay, I give up. Ya'll sing whatever you want with my blessings. Sorry if my opinions have offended anyone.


Good! Mick groves, former Spinner, tells a tale of A.L.LLoyd cutting through this kind of crap when people were discussing what is folk, and who should sing it, with the comment... 'If it moves you, its folk.

As a youing man working in the company of Scots Celtics, and learniong my first orally transmitted songs. Roddy McCorley moved me..... but not to wanking.

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: meself
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 06:20 PM

"It was only his charm, good looks and loyal mates that stopped him getting twatted a few times..."

Um ... isn't that what he wanted?

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Gervase
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 05:49 PM

...the other end of the schtick, as it were, comes from another Irish mate who on a trip to Chicago (having drink taken) approached any attractive American girl he could find and ask, "Hey love, have you got any Irish in you?". If they shook their heads, he'd say, "Well, would you like some?!". It was only his charm, good looks and loyal mates that stopped him getting twatted a few times...

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Gervase
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 05:38 PM

To be honest the only time I've heard the term is from Irish friends, and it seems to be used in the sense of the Wikipedia definition - deriding fake or wannabe Irishness rather than as a term of abuse for someone with a bit of the Irish diaspora in them. The other phrase I've heard muttered - for the more ludicrous excesses of "St Pat's" in the USA as one example - is "Paddywhackery".
Odd, though, how it seems to be such an American trait to wish to lay claim to an Irish link. No-one seems to be quite so keen to claim an African-American link (though I can claim both in my mongrel Anglo-Irish-Franco-Cajun genes!).

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 04:39 PM

This really should be up above the line. It's a music thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 03:53 PM

Crow Sister

I think you could and should sing those songs your family used to sing. Even though you are once removed from the troubles, you had first hand experience of the effect on close family.

Given your vocal ability and presence, I think you would do the songs a very good justice.

I say give it a try.

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 03:52 PM

Okay, I give up. Ya'll sing whatever you want with my blessings. Sorry if my opinions have offended anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 03:40 PM

"we should leave the immortalization of Irish heroes to the Irish"

I'll sing what I choose to sing, and, to be honest, I don't need yours or anyone else's approval to do it...that makes me a wanker, so be it, like I've saidelsewhere, if you're a paying member of the ausience, then I'll listen, but until that occurs, I'll carry on doing what I'm doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 03:28 PM

It was a friend from Athlone whom I first heard describe an Irish theme pub as Plastic Paddy...

Interesting to see that Enda Kenny's song includes Dirty Old Town, written by a Salfordian of Scottish extraction, on the list of Plastic Paddy songs (thanks Kevin). The definition of Irish songs is very elastic.

Kitty (whose great-great grandfather came over to England from Donegal in the mid 19th century.)

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 03:16 PM

I repeat "Get real Bee-dubya-ell !!

Plastic Paddy (or whatever), there I said it with no guilty concience, describes perfectly the fakeness of the highjacking of other cultures to the commercial gods (pubs etc.... Ireland isn't special in this regard.

""My beef is with people at sessions in US bars singing overtly political Irish songs. Irish politics is not part of the experience of anyone outside Ireland"

BS!!! The reason many ofIrish descent live outside of Ireland wasbecause of politcs...for godsake read your own history....!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 03:05 PM

And furthermore, we have a couple of generations in America of Cambodians and Laotians and Vietnamese etc. Should they be mocked for trying to remember some positive bits of their culture, after the horrible times they went through? What if they sing hokey (to us) songs? What if they get together once a year and sing wearing of the saffron or whatever? It is not for us to mock them. It is not for us to say that is not what they sing in Cambodia. It is not for us to imply that they are culturally or morally inferior. Same same Irish. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 03:01 PM

Furthermore, what language are many of these songs in? English. A more or less universal language. And what about times like these...can someone in Iran not sing Kelly the Boy from Killane if it gives her comfort or hope or something in these times of trial? What about the Bosnian Irish band? What did they probably go through as infants or young children? These are universal songs. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 02:58 PM

My beef is with people at sessions in US bars singing overtly political Irish songs. Irish politics is not part of the experience of anyone outside Ireland and I don't feel I or any other American has any business singing about it.

Many of those songs can be taken more generically. Patrick Galvin's "James Connolly" is a fine song about the leader of a movement of armed resistance to a better-armed foreign oppressor, and it would make perfect sense to dedicate it to Abdullah Ocalan, Leonard Peltier or Velupillai Prabhakaran. "The Old Orange Flute" is a spoof on bigotry which could be sung anyhere it can be explained without taking up half the evening with footnotes.

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 02:49 PM

"My beef is with people at sessions in US bars singing overtly political Irish songs. Irish politics is not part of the experience of anyone outside Ireland and I don't feel I or any other American has any business singing about it. We can sing about lost love, no matter whether the song comes from Ireland or Mississippi, but we should leave the immortalization of Irish heroes to the Irish."


What? What percentage of Americans has Irish blood..at least 25%. So it certainly would be part of their experience. But if they have 0%, so what. They still have universal heartbreak from wars and rebellions and someone somewhere in their own families, perhaps in their own experience, had their head bashed in by some tyrant. They have every right to sing these songs, whether they understand them, the history, etc. or not. And I have a right to sing South African songs and Hawaiaan songs, etc., as long as I do not disrepect them..although I will put in a disclaimer that if they are very sacred songs then I should not. I can sing O Freedom. I can sing the Marsellaise. If I knew Polish or Ukranian I could sing their songs. I can sing Die Deganzen sind frie???.

It is like saying I can only breathe certain air. No can do. Sing what you like. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 02:47 PM

I notice in the Wikipedia article Sandra linked us to that Christy Moore has recorded this song. Make whatever implications you want of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: PoppaGator
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 02:33 PM

"Wasn't this written by Eric Bogle about an actual Irish bar on Bourbon Street in New Orleans??"

I rather doubt it. I don't recall any Irish bar having existed on Bourbon Street at any time that I've lived here, which is since 1969.

There have been a couple of notable Irish pubs over the years in the French Quarter (but not on the Bourbon St, "main drag"), none of which would seem to likely candidiates for "Plastic Paddy-dom."

One, Danny O'Flaherty's on Toulouse Street, was a thriving business until Katrina. Danny was and is native Irish, a notable performer as well as landlord/entrepreneur, and in fact a native speaker of Irish from the Galway Gaeltacht. The main music room was an excellent venue, with good acoustics and a well-enforced be-quiet-and-listen policy. Danny had a relatively strict traditional-music-only policy, employed a small group of local musicians who fit the bill, and also provided a venue for many touring Irish/Celtic acts (icluding a few Mudcatters). While some of the clientele might plausibly have been accused of being "Plastic Paddies," I don't think the establishment could be tarred with the same brush.

After O'Flaherty's had gone out of business, a new establishment opened just off Bourbon St., "Sean Kelley's." At first, this new pub began employing many of the same singers and musicians who had been regulars at O'F's; more recently, there has been some controversy over how management had been treating the performers, many of whom refuse to appear there any more. The place is very bright and shiny (haveing been so recently renovated) and might very well be considered a "plastic," pseudo-Irish theme pub, but I think it is too new to have served as Bogle's inspiration.

The other notable French Quarter Irish-pub-with-live-music would be the Kerry on Decatur Street. This place is even less obviously and self-consciously "Oirish" ~ the music is NOT always Irish; it is normally more-or-less acoustic (folk/blues/country, almost always without drums and often featuring multiple harmonising vocalists). It's "Irish" inasmuch as they stock every available brand of Irish whiskey, and they know how to pour a decent pint of stout; also, the staff usually includes a few recent immigrants from Ireland (as did O'FLaherty's). The clientele almost always includes a number of tourists, but is predominantly made up of neighborhood regulars ~ and keep in mind, the French Quarter of New Orleans is not your run-of-the-mill neighborhood. The atmosphere is very relaxed and unpretentious, with no corporate imperative to playact at Irishness. (No one has to say "Top o' the mornin"" or any such crap.)

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Leadfingers
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 02:10 PM

'Gaelic Hat' is an 'Irish' band Usually Vocal/Guitar/Accordian , Vocal/Mandolin/Whistle . and a Fiddler . We are all English , though I am a quarter Irish , and we are SERIOUS about Entertainment . I am not sure if we qualify as Plastic Paddies any more than 'Crossbones'
are Plastic Pirates , or 'Naval Packet' are Plastic Victorian Seamen

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 02:06 PM

There's a song that goes well with this, and helps explain what it's about, and it's by another emigrant to Australia, this time from Ireland, the songwriter Enda Kenny (not to be confused with an Irish politician of the same name that no one would want to be confused with).

Don't Ask Me To Sing The Wild Rover
I don't have to try to be green
I'd rather you drove me right over the edge
Of the high rocky cliffs of Doneen
I've left all that behind me now
I'm not homesick any more
And I don't need you to remind me
Of Paddy's green shamrocks shore.

Do you ever stop to ask yourself
Just why it is you left home
What have you seen of the places you've been to
Since you started out for to roam
Is it Mass every Sunday
The pub every night
And five different bands
That all play the same shite
Like Donegal Danny and Dirty Old Town
And a "fine girl you are" in the old Holy Ground.

How many friends have you made over here
Whose accents are not like your own
How is it every time I get to hear you
You're talkin' of going back home
Well I won't be found
Where your sorrows are drowned
With plastic shamrocks and beer
Cause I've chosen to live in Australia
Not in "Ireland Over Here".

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Diva
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 01:55 PM

My grandmothers family were from the Falls Rd in Belfast "refugees" from the Troubles, combination of mixed marriage (my great grandma) and the loss of family monies by marrying the wrong bloke! and of one of her brothers having the audacity of going for a job at harland and Woolfe and been found dead in rather suspicious circumstances after.

They were in Glasgow in the early twenties when there was a lot of anti Irish Catholic feeling. This was NEVER mentioned at home, I came accross it while studying history at Uni and was stunned.

They went to Canada and thrived by sheer dint of hard work, which is the story of many emigrant families over the years. They retained a fondness for their culture but were not maudlin about it.

If we are only singing songs of our own cultures then I have hit the jackpot for I can claim Irish, Scots, English and French Canadian and a wee smattering of Native North American

But in our family songs are songs and stories are stories doesn't really matter where they come from so long as they are good.

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: meself
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 01:53 PM

A number of posters have suggested that this song is "ironic", and that anybody who doesn't find it amusing has no "sense of irony". But while the song clearly points out ironies, to say that the song itself is "ironic" is to suggest that it is actually approving of "plastic Paddies" rather than mocking them - and that it is mocking Christy Moore rather approving of him. Anyone who thinks that is what the song is doing has no sense, period.

There is nothing nonsensical about someone who is fond of "plastic Paddy" pubs, entertainers, songs, etc., being offended by this song - by implication, it is mocking them as well as the pubs, entertainers, songs. Just because we all love Eric Bogle, and he's funny, and he's sensitive, it doesn't mean that everything he has written is above criticism.

(Disclaimer: the band I put together for this past St. Patrick's Day, I called The Plastic Paddies).

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 01:42 PM

"My beef is with people at sessions in US bars singing overtly political Irish songs. Irish politics is not part of the experience of anyone outside Ireland and I don't feel I or any other American has any business singing about it. We can sing about lost love, no matter whether the song comes from Ireland or Mississippi, but we should leave the immortalization of Irish heroes to the Irish."

I think it is a fair point Bee-dubya, but my experience was of hearing these songs as a child amongst Irish family. Admittedly I'm older now and I am English-born myself - though with Irish parentage. Do you feel that it would be inappropriate for me to sing those same songs I heard as a child amongst Irish family - in memory of them and their experiences? There were those amongst them, those whom I loved and recall with great feeling.

For I'm not quite sure where I stand on this. Apart from feeling that I cannot because of my English birth. Yet, now that I have begun singing for myself, I am asking myself whether those Irish rebel songs, might not be sung in memory of those who I once heard sing them, and to whom they meant a great deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Diva
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 01:34 PM

Lox...Eric Bogle is a Borderer frae Peebles

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 01:24 PM

I think one of the things Irish culture has experienced in recent years is a 'boom' in interest. Yet, I recall my Mum talking about the Irish being the 'White N*ggers' back in the fifties - not so long ago really. They were no better than dogs - same as he Black immigrants in England and America.

So it's not always been a charming 'fun' appropriated Oirish stereotype. This I feel, is where the dangers of cliche and charicatures lie: They undermine the reality and generate a false superficial image of the truth, which while sometimes 'fun' can equally be demeaning.

As a culture which has been misrepresented and very badly so in the past up until very recently, 'fun' contemporary stereotypes, IMO merely continue the same vein of misrepresentation, that the Irish have ever suffered from.

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 01:17 PM

Rifleman, I think it's fine that you or anyone else should sing "Eppie Moray". It doesn't speak to a uniquely Scottish experience, but to one about which any number of songs have been written in many cultures. There's not much difference between it and similar Appalachian ballads sung by any number of US bluegrass bands. There's a handful of Scots words, but that's just window dressing.

My beef is with people at sessions in US bars singing overtly political Irish songs. Irish politics is not part of the experience of anyone outside Ireland and I don't feel I or any other American has any business singing about it. We can sing about lost love, no matter whether the song comes from Ireland or Mississippi, but we should leave the immortalization of Irish heroes to the Irish.

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 01:17 PM

Wasn't this written by Eric Bogle about an actual Irish bar on Bourbon Street in New Orleans??

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: PaulF
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 01:10 PM

Gosh, there's more than a hint of paranoia in some of the posts in this thread.
Anybody with any sense of irony, will see Eric Bogle's song is totally tongue in cheek.
They do say that irony doesn't travel well in certain parts of the world.
Surely we all know what is meant by a Plastic Paddy?
It's someone who drinks green beer, and enjoys all the other weird things that happen in the US on St Patrick's day, and DON'T happen in Ireland, where these poor benighted people seem to think it does go on.
I'm sure that Irish born persons living in the USA, must be totally embarrassed by the coat of verdigris adopted by those who call themselves Irish, even though their claims are tenuous to say the least.
Enjoy it by all means, but don't confuse it with reality.
Paul

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 12:20 PM

"Or should that have been my croissant...? "*LOL" Well done Will. I agree with you, it's plastic anything that makes a mockery of a given culture.
However Bee-dubya-ell,s remark " Those songs should be sung by the Irish, and nobody else. Anyone who sings a song like "Roddy McCorley" without having roots in the culture from which the song grew is a wanker." is just plain blinkered. I wonder how Bee-dubya-ell feels about a part North American Aboriginal part white person (me) singing a Scots song (Eppie Moray). On the Fotheringay recording of said song (very powerful, by the way), the two singers, Trevor Lucas and Sandy Denny, are Australian and English..

Get real Bee-dubya-ell !!

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 12:07 PM

Sorry - last post was me - had to reset my cookie.

Or should that have been my croissant...?

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 12:07 PM

The body of Irish music contains a wealth of songs with universal themes that are valid when sung by anyone of any nationality. But there's also a large number of Irish songs with overtly Irish, not universal, themes. Those songs should be sung by the Irish, and nobody else. Anyone who sings a song like "Roddy McCorley" without having roots in the culture from which the song grew is a wanker.

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 12:05 PM

The falseness or faking of culture for commercial purposes is not just confined to Irish matters. I was feeling like a coffee the other morning in town and thought I'd go into Café Rouge - I'd never been in one before.

So sat down, ordered a coffee and a croissant, listened to the accordion music playing under the red, white and blue bunting and waited. Along came the waitress with the food and drink and, as she put it down, she smiled and said "Bon appetit". Without thinking, I replied with some pleasantry in French - thinking she was French. She looked embarrassed and said, "Oh, I can't speak French - we're just told to say 'Bon Appetit'".

So what's with the French schtick? Or the Oirish schtick? Or Ye Olde English schtick, for that matter. Just serve up good coffee and croissants, or good Irish stout, or good roast beef and Yorkshire pudding and be yourself.

It' not just plastic Paddy - it's plastic René - or plastic anything that sits falsely and tries to pretend it's something it's not. Surely that's the point of EB's song.

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 11:51 AM

Some people simply want to be offended, in my opinion, and they'll go to any lengths to find 'proof'.

Fake Irish (and fake English, I might add) pubs abound worldwide, and yes, they're extremely annoying and patronising places, stay away from them if they offend you.You wouldn't catch me, dead, inside one of thos places.

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: SINSULL
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 11:21 AM

Kind of like the Australian Assault at Outback. Crikie!

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 10:38 AM

As I sid on the other thread, some people refer to themselves as plastic paddies. They are earning money filling a commercial niche, maybe they do oompah bier cellar acts another day of the week, and the odd greek wedding. No one really takes it seriously, Bogle's song is a pretty accurate snapshot of a plastic irish pub.
They opened one of these theme pubs in Exeter. The barmaids all had dyed black hair, and they had al been trained in stock ohrases 'top o the morning' etc.
   I asked if they had Music, the young barmaid replied..yes, most nights. I asked...Is it acoustic'. She replied in all seriousness and a mock irish accent...'What part of ireland is that in'.

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 10:37 AM

It's a bit of a thread drift I'm afraid, but I'm curious to know what others think.

Many of my family are N.I. Catholics who had to emigrate to England because of the troubles (others remained at home and live there still). As a child I recall tearful evenings amongst London Irish family of Irish rebel songs, sung by old uncles who had to uproot and leave home.

I feel I'd never be able to sing these songs myself, for I know nothing but second-hand stories about the shootings, the Falls road (where my grandmother was nearly killed), the political struggles and so-on. And while I might have some romantic sentiment and there is ancestral appeal from both my memories and close atatchments to people (and indeed my family has had its share of troubled inheritance from those times), I feel these songs simply are not *my* story. Yet in many ways I would like to remember my experiences of those for whom it was, and identify with those with whom I loved.

How do others of Irish descent, feel about singing such songs?? And is there anything of the so-called 'plastic Paddy' implied for someone like me (Anglo-English), who were to do so? For comments further uplist, suggest that there might be.

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Jess A
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 10:22 AM

I am another who can see both sides of the argument here.

I'm english and love to play traditional english music. It distresses me that a vast proportion of the general population in this country and elsewhere have no concept that there is any traditional english music, and assume that if I'm playing something folky on a fiddle then it must be irish (that happens a lot). It distresses me when some of my peers (by which I mean players of traditional music in England) have so embraced irish music that they are downright rude about anything that isn't irish (an particularly so about anything that is english) - that happens more often than I'd like it to, as well. It amuses me more than distresses me when people who have no more irish blood than I do (or less, in fact - I have an irish great grandmother, fwiw) are so enamoured of 'irishness' that they embrace all the cliches in Eric's song. And because of these things, I've been known to use the term plastic paddy myself, in a fairly derogatory way.

BUT - I love traditional irish music myself, play a fair bit of it, know and respect a lot of irish people (including a vast proportion of my in-laws) and have NO TIME AT ALL for being racist to or about actual irish people, or culture.

I don't see a contradiction between my above two paragraphs, and I wonder whether those who are offended by Eric's song just haven't experienced the same kind of irritatingly sycophantic 'everything irish is wonderful, everything wonderful is irish' rosy-tinted-spectacled view (or in this case either green or guinness tinted... or both) of all things irish that he is describing... ???

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: GUEST,Daz
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 10:18 AM

I met a guy at a conference some years back called Patrick Plas. I think he was from South Africa. I thought this was a thread about him.
He may look at it as identity theft !

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 10:11 AM

Well if it's in fun...
Maybe I'll black me face up and stick on a big affro wig and wear a Bob Marley tee shirt for next Notting Hill carnival...!



On second thoughts maybe I won't... ;-)
Really would love to get to Notting Hill carnival this year though.

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 10:00 AM

But he is a master of the use of I-R-O-N-Y.

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 09:57 AM

Knowing Eric, his great sense of morality, and his wicked sense of humour, I'm absolutely convinced that 'Plastic Paddy' is not, in any conceivable way, intended to be an insult to the Irish - precisely the opposite, in fact.

It's a song in defence of all that is good and great in the real people and culture of Ireland, and an attack on those who leap on to what they perceive to be that culture in an effort to line their pockets and who, in so doing, themselves degrade the Irish.

A racist is one thing Eric is NOT.

IMHO.

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: GUEST,color blind Bob
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 09:30 AM

That green print is almost impossible to read;
spare a thought for practicality please.

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 09:24 AM

I must confess I've done the 'plastic paddy' thing myself just because it can be good fun... I'm sorry--is this color making your eyes bleed? Will switch to...

I can find loads of things that are worth the aggravation of getting insulted by. This is not one. It's just, appropriately, about those who are Irish only when it suits them. It's just like people who get all churchy and halleluliafied on holidays but don't give religion or their church another thought the rest of the year. I play some Irish music, but I've been known to wear a leprechaun hat and go silly with green at times BECAUSE IT'S FUN. I can 'pass' for Irish, but I don't actually call myself Irish. I don't call myself English either, though that's where about 80-90% of my ancestors came from. Folks in the UK might call it 'race', but for me, it's culture.

The term can be used to dismiss people who are hyphenated Irish, but is usually done because the person using the term has no clue about the target's background. You can view this sort of usage as an insult (it's meant as one) but ultimately it's a big old 'Hi. I'm an idiot and don't have an argument so I'm trying to belittle the other person. Now that you know I'm a complete f***wit, KICK ME!' sign.

So yeah, it can be an insult, but it says more about the person saying it than the person so labeled. To know whether a person is adopting a persona to associate temporarily with some group temporarily or IS that person, you have to know him.