Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: GUEST,Tootler
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 01:05 PM

The lady in "The well below the valley" who has killed all her children but she has been forced into incest.

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 12:54 PM

The nurse in "Long Lankin"
The "wicked woman" in "Georgie Barnell"
The midwife in "The Midwife's Ghost"
The wife of the ship's carpenter in "The Demon Lover"

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Nicholas Waller
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 12:50 PM

@Crow Sister re King Willie being traditional - I stand corrected, and in fact on cloudstreet's site a review of one of their CDs (Swallow the Concertina) makes that point too.

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 12:36 PM

From Harry Smith:

Fatal Flower Garden (from Child Ballad 155, Little Sir Hugh)
Frankie (from the long line of Frankie & Johnny songs)

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 12:10 PM

"It's not traditional, but traditional-style: King Willy from cloudstreet.It's not traditional, but traditional-style: King Willy from cloudstreet."

I think that is a traditional song, just more usually known as Willy's Lady (Child ballad No'6).

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: beeliner
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 12:08 PM

Does Hard Hearted Hanna, the vamp of Savannah count?

How 'bout the lady in Mean Woman Blues?

I was going to mention the slayer of Henry Lee - I think that's a variation of Young Hunting, already named.

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Nicholas Waller
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 12:04 PM

It's not traditional, but traditional-style: King Willy from cloudstreet. King Willy has a true love but his evil witchy mother won't let them have a child together... a cruel sorceress, anyway.

Lyrics: http://www.cloudstreet.org/lyrics_swallow.htm
Hear it: http://www.cloudstreet.org/sounds/KINGWILLY.mp3

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Flashmeister
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 12:01 PM

Amen the cruel mother and also the wife of Lord Randall who is hung at the end of teh epoymous song for poisoning her husband. oh, not forgetting of course the sister Anne in Bows of London who pushes her sister into teh murky river only to be outed by the skeletal violin crafed by a fool from her murdered siters bony remains.

In less gruesome style the best one I can think of at the moment would be in The Ranter where she throws a loaf of bees at the dirty old preacher and pockets his cold - and trousers too!

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: celticblues5
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 11:49 AM

I think the crucial difference is, there is always something to admire (in however skewed a way) in the action of the anti-hero/anti-heroine.

A mother who kills her children is just cruel. A woman who sleeps with a judge to get her lover off the gallows & then kills the judge when he reneges on his promise is an anti-heroine.

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 11:46 AM

"might I humbly suggest that in that case 'anti-heroine' wasn't quite the designation you actually intended, as it means by definition an unlikeable heroine, i.e. main female character?"

Sure, I hummed and haa'd about the thread title, but it was the best description I could come up with without getting overly verbose!

One point of distinction though, I don't believe that an anti-hero/heroine is necessarily a full on "baddie" (though often they will be) in the panto sense, just a figure who's character and values run contrary to those of the collective or community. We can often identify with the anti-hero/ine where we see them revolting against prevailing social mores for example. Think Robin Hood or any amount of equivalent morally ambiguous figures?

What makes the anti-hero/ine exciting, is their high degree of individuality and the striking impact that the expression of that individuality can have upon the collective.

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Young Buchan
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 11:40 AM

The step mother in Lady Isabel. Accuses Isabel of incest - then poisons her. Oh, and she tells fibs!

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 11:36 AM

They are 'crucial' as villainesses, not as heroines, actual or 'anti-'. Iago is "crucial" to 'Othello'; but he is the villain, not the 'anti-hero'.

Accuracy matters, in nomenclature as in anything else. If agreed definitions are departed from, chaos ensues.

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 11:33 AM

The lady with her 'hair pinned to the ground' in The Three Butchers - anybody's mother in a ballad, Queen of Elfland in Tam Lin, the wife of William Hare and McDougal in Burke and Hare... how long have you got?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 11:32 AM

Crow Sister. I agree. The mothers I named are crucial to the ballads in question.

Anyway, what about Lady Erskine in Child Owlet? They can't come much meaner than that.

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 11:31 AM

Thanks for clarifying, Crow Sister - but might I humbly suggest that in that case 'anti-heroine' wasn't quite the designation you actually intended, as it means by definition an unlikeable heroine, i.e. main female character?

Lady Macbeth is an anti-heroine, as Macbeth is an anti-hero; the three witches are not anti-heroines, they are just bad women who happen to be around and have rather a lot of influence.

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 11:23 AM

"The anti-heroine must surely be the main character, who is a baddie, rather than just any old nasty female who happens to have any sort of walk-on part?"

MtheGM to clarify my initial query, I'm particularly interested in 'subversive' or non-traditional (ones who might traditionally be considered negative) female figures, who play a key role in the plot. Such a figure might perhaps be 'shadowy' and not feature as the central character or protagonist, but without her there would be no story to tell.

Otherwise, I'm happy for people to throw up any songs they feel describes interesting subversive female figures. It's been fun to read through the lyrics of the songs suggested so far, and compare these characters!

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 11:22 AM

Without mothers, none of these stories could have happened.

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Tootler
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 11:14 AM

Maybe not a bad girl in our eyes, but the lass in Jock O' Hazeldean certainly thumbed her nose at all those who were arranging a "suitable" marriage for her and went off with her own choice of partner!

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 11:10 AM

Surely, tho, mothers are supporting-roles rather than anti-heroines. The anti-heroine must surely be the main character, who is a baddie, rather than just any old nasty female who happens to have any sort of walk-on part?

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 11:00 AM

The two mothers in Clydes Water and Lord Gregory's mother in Lord Gregory. Alison Gross. The Farmer's Curst Wife. The wife of the Baron of Brackley. They'll do to be going on with.

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 10:25 AM

I nominate 'Hard-hearted Barbara Allen', from Pepys on...

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 10:18 AM

Surely The Cruel Mother (Child 20) and Sister (Child 10) qualify.

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: RTim
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 10:08 AM

Young Hunting - in all it's versions

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 09:48 AM

The lass in 'William Taylor' should fit your bill. See this thread: Click.

--Stewie.

Subject: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 09:36 AM

I've always enjoyed bad girls in classical literature, and so too have I found the anti-heroine figure in folk songs equally engaging. For example, three songs I've recently enjoyed learning have all included a bad girl or rebel: Three Gypsies for the runaway bride, Rolling of the Stones for the beguiling necromancer, Wild Wild Berry for the inventive poisoner.

Any more?
Your favourite cold-blooded murderesses, sorceresses and down right bad 'uns from traditional songs please!