BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 09:02 AM

"No matter how much you push the envelope, it'll still be stationery."

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 08:57 AM

HIV 


New HIV diagnoses

2.3 million new HIV infections worldwideNew HIV infections have fallen by 33% since 2001New HIV infections among adults and adolescents decreased by 50% or more in 26 countries between 2001 and 2012The number of new infections amongst children worldwide was 34% lower than in 2009.

AIDS-related deaths

1.6 million AIDS-related deaths in 2012 (down from 2.3 million in 2005).1.1 million people who developed TB were living with HIV in 2012. TB remains the leading cause of death amongst people living with HIV globally.  Since 2004, TB related deaths amongst people living with HIV has declined by 36% worldwide.- See more at: http://www.nat.org.uk/hiv-facts/statistics/international-statistics.aspx#sthash.3A6uja57.dpufa href="http://www.nat.org.uk/hiv-facts/statistics/international-statistics.aspx">HIV 

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 08:31 AM

Amongst MSM, the new infection rate for HIV, has risen by 8 to 10% annually, for the last decade.
New infection rates in all other demographics are falling. That demonstrates that MSM are unwilling or unable to respond to the information and education provided by the agencies.

Time to face the facts, anyone who is interested in public health.

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 08:17 AM

The term MSM was coined by the agencies themselves, to define by behaviour not identity.
No-one calls themselves MSM, so you target the group that encompasses MSM.

PHE only uses MSM.
NAT uses gay men and MSM interchangeably.
Remember bisexual men are included in MSM.

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 08:05 AM

MSM(men who have sex with men) are a recognised demographic, according to the health agencies, from which comes 70% of all new cases of HIV and Syphilis, plus, much higher than normal rates of all male STDs.

Is that providing information, or "stigmatising a whole swathe of society as promiscuous perverts?"

If it is the latter, I suggest you take the matter up with CDC in the US and HPE in the UK.

But you had better be quick, for before long the publishing of results by demographic will be banned and HIV rates will miraculously fall......all will be well with the world....sleep.....sleep.....

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 07:04 AM

Like a spiral in a spiral
Like a wheel within a wheel
Never ending or beginning
On an ever spinning reel...

How do we increase testing and contact tracing ake?

What is 'their own demographic'?

It has never been discriminatory to tell the truth. It is discriminatory to stereotype a whole swathe of society as promiscuous perverts.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 06:46 AM

What is actually happening, is that the true nature of the condition(STD transmission) is about to be concealed by Political Correctness, on the grounds that it is "discriminatory" to tell the truth.

If the true nature of the condition and those most massively affected by it is concealed, then MSM will be the real losers.

Their only hope to halt the epidemic, is to increase testing and contact tracing amongst their own demographic.

Time to face facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: Musket
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 06:12 AM

Possibly because the object of the exercise is to cherry pick historic statistics as a weapon to vilify sections of society.

On that subject. The change in law to allow home testing kits, once fully available, to be used to test for HIV is, in the opinion of The Terence Higgins Trust a huge milestone as many people still have issues coming forward due to the stigma that stems from bigotry. Concerns still exist regarding availability and supply and worryingly, people being in denial if they don't take up the support that GU clinic or routine hospital testing can offer.

Still around 25,000 people out there, in all classes, if meta analysis is accurate who may be carrying but not yet showing symptoms. Add the warnings around promiscuous lifestyle of young heterosexual people and older people who think STDs are a young person ailment, and we have a large issue building up.

One not helped by pointing at one possible source of spread and stigmatising them.

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 05:10 AM

Dave, what is the difference please between sexually active male homosexuals and MSM?

Very little, Keith. But you know full well that is not the point I was making. I specifically said that MSM does not equal homosexual. Note there is no mention of sexually active in the later term. Meaning that the targeted group should be those who have unprotected sex with multiple partners. Not all homosexuals are in the group so why target all homosexuals?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 02:40 AM

Getting defensive Goofus?

Shouldn't be such a disgusting little shit then.



One aspect of gay lifestyle that organisations such as Stonewall mention is that a large number of gay men would not be turned on by anal sex any more than the same number of heterosexual men. This does not preclude making love and enjoying each other's bodies.

The fascination with anal sex usually says more about those for whom the fascination exists.

Yes

You.

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 11:13 PM

You're like not like me??? Well, I've been married to the same woman, and have had kids, from the same woman, that I delivered at home, and loved them while they were still in the womb...so it sounds like we have the same values....are you suggesting that I promote something that I wouldn't do, or believe in myself??...How about you?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: GUEST,Disgusted
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 11:09 PM

I have a rich, full sex-life. I have been happily married to the same woman for decades and I have never "dumb fucked" in my life. I leave that to vermin like you.

Disgusted

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 10:05 PM

Well 'Disgusted', being as if you think as you write, you picked an appropriate name...it seems like the outlook of your life....I can't help that...Must be 'Genetic'......or is it that sometimes you find that you were a Stupid Fucker, and haven't stopped trying to justify it, and turn it into being 'liberated'???

Fascinated,

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: GUEST,Disgusted
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 09:28 PM

In the matter of sex ("fucking," in the minds of some), does love and affection never play a strong, a most important part? Not, apparently, in the mind of creatures like Guest from Sanity (!??) and a few others who seem to feel that shoving their penis into any orifice, possibly including a knot-hole, the business end of a Shop-Vac, or the genital or anal orifice of anyone of either gender available, and wobbling it about until they climax constitutes the be-all and end-all of the matter.

No love and affection. Just "fucking."

I find some people absolutely disgusting!!

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 06:23 PM

I thought you'd get it!
Seems pretty simple to me....

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 05:03 PM

Ok gfs, thanks for taking the time to clear that up.

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 04:33 PM

Ed, If you read my post CAREFULLY, you would see that I focus in on 'PROMISCUITY', and the type of people who engage in it, ('Stupid')without regard for the consequences of BOTH parties involved. I made it VERY clear that I was inclusive of BOTH hetero and homo(those who 'fuck' are 'fuckers'). I thought 'Stupid Fuckers' was the shortest, most succinct, accurate description of those sorts of people...it was a lot shorter than typing out, 'Sexually active sociopaths who have disregard for the consequences to themselves, the other person(s) or society, as a result of their actions)....Naw, "Stupid Fuckers" is faster...I even shortened 'Dumb Fuck' to DF....(A 'Dumb Fuck' is usually the 'recipient' of a 'Stupid Fucker' or, is just self-initiated, as being the 'Fuck-ee').....and by the way, the slang term, which is oft used in a vulgar manner, has its origins, in the same context...so, it really ISN'T a vulgar and/or disgusting post, is it?...thought it DOES show concern for the 'victims' of promiscuity...though it may not be consistent with YOUR vision of 'political correctness'.

I hope I've cleared that up..

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 04:03 PM

Yes, indeed- thus the discourse in ths thread.

One, that for the most part, involves a very few, as it leads to nowhere.

Just my observation. Not that it matters that much.:)

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 03:56 PM

No.
Some are celibate by choice, some too old, some too young.

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 03:43 PM

"Havng sex" would include most, if not all, the homosexual community (regardless of monogomous relatinshils, being responsible or not) thus the significant difference in opinion, and a big source of discourse, on the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 03:25 PM

I assume the expression means having sex?

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 03:12 PM

Define, sexually active. It seems quite broad, in any group, except for my grand dad.

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 03:06 PM

Dave, what is the difference please between sexually active male homosexuals and MSM?
Is the only difference that MSM also includes bisexual men?
I think that the accepted usage is to equate them, but I am no expert.

MSM are said by all agencies to need annual testing or more frequent.

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 02:43 PM

Yeah, well I can see why.

GfS

P.S. So if someone from the U.K. says 'wanker', it's OK, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 02:41 PM

I wish you peace and prosperity, gfs
I have no need to have a discussion directly with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 02:33 PM

Whatever gets the point across, Ed....are you trying to insinuate that people who ignore getting tested, and/or are promiscuous, without being careful are that way because they are smart??????

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 02:25 PM

What a pleasent person you seem to be gfs.
Do you believe trash talk like that adds to your standing here, or the liklihood that your posted views would be taken more seriously?

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 02:21 PM

Musket: "Goofus is his lucid self again. I reckon he has problems nobody here can address.."

Ed T: "not just a few, they would consider erasing gfs's last insulting post-that adds nothing to what seemed to be a discussion back on a respectful and productive course.."

Oh NO!...You're going to give me a 'stigma'...Maybe you should tell those who are reluctant of getting a 'stigma' to get themselves tested, before they kill someone else.....but then why hurt someone's feelings, when they can gleefully go off and kill someone???

Get over it!....and tell them to get over it, and think of others than themselves, rather than how they get their rocks off!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: Musket
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 02:11 PM

The worm just said that an NHS pen pusher should know that MSM means homosexual.

Well, I know quite a few NHS pen pushers. In fact I help educate a few and give support to many others. I have never been one myself mind, I am a retired businessman, non paid director of a teaching hospitals trust and visiting Prof, as well as some national advisor bits as a hang over from chairing trusts and regulating them, but I think it is safe to assume I can speak for NHS pen pushers when I say

Nothing is taken as understood. Everything has to be tried to be understood in order to help the situation. Nobody is advised to come forward for testing by dint of being homosexual. People who are at risk of HIV are more prevalent in the gay and African demographic, hence the targeted health promotion campaign but the mental leap our resident homophobes delve into is borne of bigotry.

Goofus is his lucid self again. I reckon he has problems nobody here can address..




I wish I was an NHS pen pusher. The pension scheme for a start......

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 01:52 PM

If the mods were serious about creating an atmosphere for respectful dialogue, for all, not just a few, they would consider erasing gfs's last insulting post-that adds nothing to what seemed to be a discussion back on a respectful and productive course (a reason I joined back in again).

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 01:46 PM

Keith - You posted this yourself -

PHE.
" Get tested regularly for HIV if you are one of those most-at-risk:
a. Men who have sex with men are advised to have an HIV and STI screen at least annually, and every three months if having unprotected sex with new or casual partners."

So not all agencies are making the mistake of equating the at risk groups with all homosexuals. And what makes you assume that "it is taken as understood etc." Nothing should be taken as understood. Particularly on the internet. Not everyone is capable of understanding.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 01:43 PM

Well, I'm back from intense recording sessions, and see that the conversation has wandered around to hair splitting about homosexuals, again, and how much more or less they are even a factor. 'Guest' posted some links, (where I last left off), and must NOT have read them very well, especially the one from the CDC, which has the pie chart....then he goes on to banter how he made such a wonderful point, that being stigmatized keeps homosexuals from being tested.....well isn't that perfectly STUPID??!!..then goes onto provide links from homosexual sites 'backing up' that STUPID allegation!!! Oh Whaaa!
Now THIS applies to everyone, whether homosexual or heterosexual.
Before one engages in sex, male or female, homo or hetero, before you DECIDE whether to stick your dick in, whatever orifice who choose, aren't you at least curious, or doesn't the thought occur to you to question if that is a safe place to put your dick?...For instance, you meet someone, male or female and you 'entertain' the thought that you have a few things in common, and it seems like a personable exchange, so you 'entertain' thoughts of wanting to fuck....without thinking twice, if that person is going to get 'knocked up'...or if she might be the person who is open to such casual encounters...so you want to fuck her.....and IF you don't think twice, then you are, in every sense of the word, a 'Dumb Fuck Stupid Fucker'! If you want to stick your dick into someone, that may cause one of you to contract a fatal disease, and you do it, you are a 'Dumb Fuck Stupid Fucker'! If you allow someone to stick their dick into you, and you suspect that you have an STD of any sort, whether in be herpes, syphilis, gonorrhea or HIV, you are a Dumb Fuck Stupid Fucker'....if you are sexually active, with more than one fucker, and don't get yourself checked, at least once in a while, you are a 'Dumb Fuck Stupid Fucker'!! ...I think instead of continuing to type 'Dumb Fuck Stupid Fucker' repeatedly, I think I'll just abbreviate it to 'DF', Okay?
To make excuses for ANY reason, to put OTHER people at risk, just so you can get your rocks off, makes you a 'DF'. To pretend that a 'stigma; of being a DF, keeps you from warning those considering fucking you, makes you an even bigger DF....keeping yourself STUPID and IGNORANT of finding out if you are carrying a fatal disease, makes you a DF Stupid Fucker!!! Denying that Stupid Fuckers are anything less than Stupid Fuckers, is downright Stupid and evil, being as you are promoting death and illnesses to people who don't have to get ill and die, just to get their rocks off... OR impregnate a 'casual acquaintance' to get their rocks off, just for you to make a 'political point' is being a DF Stupid Fucker.....regardless of the 'stigma' you leave the woman and/or the child ....and really, who pays attention to Stupid Fuckers???...only a D.F.!...(Stupid Fucker!)
...and promiscuity is being a Stupid Dumb Fucker!!!...it burns out you own circuits..

So, in that perspective, the most sure remedy is obvious!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 11:37 AM

I think that all the agencies do say that Dave.

It is taken as understood that some members do not put themselves at risk, but the group, with all its exceptions, is considered a high risk group.

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 11:27 AM

But homosexual does not equal MSM. And MSM are only at risk if they have multiple partners and unprotected sex. Why use the terms as if they mean the same? Why keep saying homosexuals should be targeted? Why say all MSM should be targeted?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 10:52 AM

The definition of MSM is quite clear and should be obvious to even an NHS pen pusher.

MSM.....Men who have sex with men. This demographic includes homosexual and bisexual men, apprx 12% of the total are bisexual(Simon Levy 2011)

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 10:28 AM

"The "African American demographic" contains African American MSM."


Yes it does. But, a reasonable approach for those seeking to reduce it is not to stigmatise those impacted by alluding to it as being an "african american" health issue -caused by folks being african american. They look deeper into the root causes, to assist in prevention in the short term and over the long term. Approach is very important in seeking voluntary participation in reducing future infections.

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 09:43 AM

I thought MSM is an abbreviation for male homosexuals and bisexual men, if sexually active.
Is that wrong?

Of course all members of a group are different.
It does not need saying.
Of course many are not sexually active.
It does not need saying.

The agencies refer to some groups as high risk and needing testing without feeling the need to specify "except those who do not engage in high risk behaviour" because it does not need saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 06:11 AM

Men who have sex with men are advised to ...

That is the proper term, used by the agencies that know.

Male homosexuals are the highest risk group

That is the term used by some on here.

As you said, Keith, "Let's be more careful with our wording to avoid this kind of disagreement".

Not all homosexuals have sex. Not all homosexuals that have sex have sex with multiple partners. Not all homosexuals that have sex with multiple partners have unprotected sex. You see, they are just like heterosexuals in that. No different at all. Which is why vilifying homosexuality is wrong. Yes, target the at risk groups. The highest at risk group are men who have unprotected sex with multiple partners. Not all homosexuals.

Hope that helps.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 05:22 AM

"I don't hate people. I just find their views disturbing"

Prof. Fucking important dude.

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 05:12 AM

"I don't hate you.. I just don't like that you exist" 
― Gena Showalter, Seduce the Darkness

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 04:37 AM

MSM is another term for homosexual?

Glad you said that. Your mealy mouthed bigotry can sometimes read as trying to be reasonable.

Nice for you to get the homophobia out in the open.




Busted

Fucking

Flush

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 04:14 AM

Male homosexuals are the highest risk group, and are targeted for screening. MSM is a recognised abbreviation.
Bisexuals are also high risk and targeted.

Lesbians are not a risk group.

PHE.
" Get tested regularly for HIV if you are one of those most-at-risk:
a. Men who have sex with men are advised to have an HIV and STI screen at least annually, and every three months if having unprotected sex with new or casual partners."

National Aids Trust (NAT)
"NAT want to see a change in testing culture in the UK. 'At least annual' testing must become the norm both for gay and bisexual men"

These statements contradict your statements that "Nobody, I repeat, nobody is calling for any HIV testing on anybody on the basis of being gay."   and,

"There is nothing, nothing whatseover to substantiate a campaign focussing on gay men. It is homophobic to do so."
.
Let's be more careful with our wording to avoid this kind of disagreement.

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 03:25 AM

Just to state the obvious. Both the worm and Keith A Hole of Hertford have conveniently and continuously made MSM and homosexual interchangeable terms. That way it is easier to vilify a lifestyle rather than a physical act. The agencies Keith quotes make the distinction, although not always as well as they might, and that sadly gives a toe in for far right hate groups and their supporters.

Fucking disgraceful.

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 03:15 AM

The "African American demographic" contains African American MSM.

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 06:28 PM

MSM is the massively most "at risk" demographic.

Are they "at risk" or at risk? Big difference. Like "marriage" and marriage. Get it?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 06:21 PM

In the USA, African Americans are the fastest growing demographic, which is significant, given their lower representation in the population. This is not surprising, as they are low on the economic and education scale and have traditionally been marginilized in this society.

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 06:14 PM

MSM is the massively most "at risk" demographic.

This is publicised by CDC, HPA, HPE, and all other health agencies.
It is even quoted by the Terence Higgins Trust, Stonewall and other homosexual agencies.

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 05:05 PM

The call should not be for testing on the basis of being gay. It should be for testing on the basis of being at risk.

Can you not see the difference?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 04:49 PM

I agree that people who do not have sex are not at risk from sexual transmission.
I am just surprised you thought it needed saying.

Nobody, I repeat, nobody is calling for any HIV testing on anybody on the basis of being gay.

Yes they are.
PHE, NAT and all the other agencies.

"There is nothing, nothing whatseover to substantiate a campaign focussing on gay men. It is homophobic to do so."

Silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion of HIV transmission.
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 10:01 AM

debate 

Let's try this link, as the one before did not work.