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Apache recorded 60 years ago!
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: Jeri Date: 22 Jun 20 - 03:56 PM The heading is "Unclassified/general music". People complaining about it not being folk music are on the wrong forum. And for the record, when it was started, Mudcat was about blues. One thread about a pop song isn't going to end the world. Might put a big bunch in someone's panties, but that's life. |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: Backwoodsman Date: 22 Jun 20 - 03:47 PM As far as I recall, absolutely nobody on this thread has suggested that ‘Apache’ falls into the genre of ‘Folk-Music’. The only people mentioning folk-music and ‘Apache’ as though they are connected in some way are those who appear to object to ‘Apache’ being discussed at all. Very strange.... |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: punkfolkrocker Date: 22 Jun 20 - 01:49 PM "Apache, Folk Music?" we'll let you know 200 years from now... |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: GUEST,Guest Anonyme Date: 22 Jun 20 - 01:41 PM Apache, Folk Music? |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: GUEST,Tunesmith Date: 22 Jun 20 - 12:31 PM Talking about Hank's "sound", I've always thought that Hank must have been influenced by electric Hawaiian guitar players who were still plentiful in the UK in the 1950s. |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: Stilly River Sage Date: 22 Jun 20 - 11:42 AM I've just deleted a bunch of off-topic squabbling dovetailed into this thread to do with this subject:
Perhaps this will serve as a reset button. |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: Steve Shaw Date: 22 Jun 20 - 11:39 AM I've said this a few times here, but my respect for what we call "pop" music soared after I'd cut 'n' spliced several hundred "pop songs" for our local dance teacher (anyone wanna hear my 3-minute version of American Pie? I promise you can't see the join...) :-) I had to do a lot of very close listening, and I realised that in many cases (not all, but 'twas ever thus...) the composition, arrangements, balance, recording quality and overall production values were often staggeringly good...There was a lot of genuine talent on show too.. I even got to like a good few, and I hadn't listened to any "pop" music since the Beatles broke up... "Pop," to define a genre (or bunch of genres) of music can be used as a very handy pejorative. "Pop." Daft little word. Bottle of pop. Lollipop. Pop goes the weasel. You don't get that with "jazz", "folk" or "classical." And note that with those three they are not just one thing, just like "pop" isn't just one thing. You can nitpick about classical to say that it started with Bach's son and ended pre-Beethoven, but most people hearing you say that wouldn't know what you were talking about. Music is a huge mystery (said Vladimir Ashkenazy). We should celebrate it and enjoy the fact that its boundaries are irredeemably fuzzy-wuzzy. I don't even think I know what pop music is. |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: GUEST,Guest Anonyme Date: 22 Jun 20 - 11:13 AM Joe Offer: Yer Tis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElRIjwFVkoA |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: Dave the Gnome Date: 22 Jun 20 - 11:03 AM Just found a good version here by The Rockets Enjoy PFR - If no-one else was abbout Jim would fight with himself ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: punkfolkrocker Date: 22 Jun 20 - 10:57 AM There are probably numerous dodgy cover versions and cash-in parodies of Apache lost in time.. It's very plausible Joe heard one... |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: Tattie Bogle Date: 22 Jun 20 - 10:53 AM Scrolled on by.......! As for grunty noises, Joe: the one I remember that had that in it was "Running Bear" by Johnny Preston (1959). I don't remember it on any of the Shadows' tracks or Telstar. |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: punkfolkrocker Date: 22 Jun 20 - 10:20 AM "explain why a pop musician has a place on a forum about folklore and folk music" Jim - apart from any reasons of respect and tolerance for diversity, a simple explanation is mudcat admin do not BAN foklies talking about other forms of music which bring joy to their lives... We could guess that over the last 60 years more amateur musicians started off by playing this tune, than any trad ballads or jigs...??? Many of these amateurs who now 60 years later are the life blood of folk clubs... |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: punkfolkrocker Date: 22 Jun 20 - 10:09 AM This is one single bloody thread in an entire forum which is trying to celebrate a record of monumental importance in UK, even worldwide, music culture history. YOU might not have cared much for it, but millions of other folk did and still do. A vast number of folks who it helped inspire to become life long musicians in ALL genres of music, cite this record and others by The Shadows as a significant inspiration.. Including many notable folk artists... Well balanced, well informed and educated music enthusiasts can enjoy this record... Liking this record does not cause a folk song, or a kitten, to die... But unwelcome miserable killjoys can bore and antagonise other folk to death... |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: GUEST,Jerry Date: 22 Jun 20 - 07:29 AM Just thinking. Although much loved by those of us of a certain age, Apache is a patchy tune at best (pun intended) - a simple chord led (almost arpeggiated) melody line in the key of A minor, with the f note sometimes sharpened. Does this make it the first chart hit in the Dorian mode? Moreover, was it also instrumental (sorry) in spawning a legacy of other more adventurous guitar tunes in A minor - Anji, Classical Gas, Judy, Windy and Warm, Tangerine Puppet, etc? It seems all guitar pickers at one time had Am tunes. |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: GUEST,Mark Date: 22 Jun 20 - 06:19 AM Backwoodsman - I'm not enough of an expert (or any amount of an expert) to say if that's a John Le Voi. In Australia, which is where Hank's based I believe, it's perhaps unlikely. A comment on the YouTube video led me here, so it's probably a Rob Aylward. |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: GUEST,Jon Date: 22 Jun 20 - 06:02 AM Man Of Mystery... I heard that quite a few times earlier in the year as we watched a set of Edgar Wallace mysteries which use that as the theme together with a rotating bust of EW in a misty background. The theme started there with the melody played on flute before moving to guitar lead in later episodes. |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Jun 20 - 05:26 AM Yet, being the operative word That's what we said about the clubs Maybe it's ok to talk fanzine from 2 meters away wearing masks ! Jim |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: gillymor Date: 22 Jun 20 - 05:21 AM I'm not sure if this is the case with the recording you heard, Joe, but local DJs have been known to "enhance" records they air here in the states. Jim, a glance at the thread titles in the Music section should indicate that this place hasn't turned into Tiger Beat,...............yet. |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: Joe Offer Date: 22 Jun 20 - 05:12 AM So, anyhow, does anybody know about the recording of"Apache" with the grunts? They're almost percussion. I never thought of it before today because I didn't know the name of the piece despite having heard it hundreds of times. |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: Backwoodsman Date: 22 Jun 20 - 04:58 AM Wonder if that’s a JLV he’s playing, Mark? |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: GUEST,Mark Date: 22 Jun 20 - 04:08 AM Regarding "swing", I understand that Hank Marvin is an accomplished gipsy jazz player these days ( Here's an example. ), so at some point he must have acquired some :-) |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: Backwoodsman Date: 22 Jun 20 - 02:45 AM Jim, it would have been a very enjoyable thread for many of us, were it not for the idiotic antics of someone with a reputation for rudeness, SHOUTING, a poor grasp of English,, and an unfeasibly high opinion of himself. If that clown hadn’t started his belligerent horse-shit, none of the squabbling would have happened. This forum is big enough for discussion on other forms of music, and anyone who isn’t interested in the form being discussed in the thread is perfectly at liberty to scroll on by. IMHO, of course. |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Jun 20 - 02:34 AM I wonder if all those who have told be that dead folk singers no longer have a place in today's world, feel the same about long rejected pop musicians I wouldn't have thought it had much relevance on a site dedicated to Just a thought it had much relevance on a site supposedly dedicated to "Traditional Music Folklore Collecting and Folklore" Great thing in life - you never stop learning Jim |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: punkfolkrocker Date: 21 Jun 20 - 07:50 PM Joe - the Shadows dance was popular then, and still enjoyable now.. Though not necessarily for the same reasons, in our knowing sophisticated 21st Century post modernist cool kitsch and exotica appreciating culture... |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: Joe Offer Date: 21 Jun 20 - 07:12 PM There were certain songs, usually instrumentals, that were used to close out AM radio shows in the US at the end of the disc jockey's shift. "Apache" was one one such song. Telstar was another. I swear that the version I heard in the US was punctuated with grunts that were supposed to sound like "Indian braves." Anybody know who did that tacky version? I added a YouTube link to the first post, but I'll add it here, also. It's the Shadows, complete with go-go dancers. Interesting how the guitarists all half-dance, swaying in unison. Did we really like that stuff when we were young? -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: punkfolkrocker Date: 21 Jun 20 - 06:31 PM Trump's shining example of 'sense of fair play' conflict resolution, when he declared murderous KKK militia and peace loving anti racists as.. "Just as bad as each other..", seems to have set a universal good precedent we all should thank him for... Every one of us good guys must strive harder to be just as bad as the bad guys...?????? Sounds like that could have been the story outline for a 1960s rock opera... |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: Steve Shaw Date: 21 Jun 20 - 06:03 PM Well I'm glad that my Freddie sidetrack struck a chord (which is more than the Dreamers struck...) I'm thinking of a Herman's Hermits diversion... My dad was the manager at Stretford Road Burtons branch and once measured Peter Noone for a suit... But excuse me... "You're all badly behaved in this thread, and if you'd taken a look, a bunch of the off-topic squabbling was removed, from several parties. Stop the bickering, the bunch of you, you should be embarrassed by your behavior." Well I don't know who you think you're talking to, moderator, but I have been very well behaved all through this thread, and I'm not alone. How dare you make such a sweeping statement. I think you should retract and apologise, though, as I think I know which mod you are, you won't, as you never do, and you'll probably delete this. Yes I'm outraged. Cop yourself on, will you. |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: Tattie Bogle Date: 21 Jun 20 - 05:39 PM Been following this tangled thread, if not saying much, but now prompted to pull out my copy of "The Shadows' Greatest Hits" - a compilation of those recorded between 1960 and 1962, with Apache is the first track on side 1. I was 14 then, and as I said in a post above, and others have said too, it was like nothing ever heard before. Plenty of time, if I really have to, to develop more sophisticated tastes in guitarists in my next 60 years. 10 years on, I would have been listening to the likes of John Renbourn, Bert Jansch, Davy Graham, Ralph McTell. But at age 14, I was most likely more concerned with which one of the Shads was the best-looking (OK, Tony Meehan) than what guitar they played or tech stuff they used. I just LIKED IT! FWIW the track list in this LP is: Side 1 1. Apache 2. Man of Mystery 3. The Stranger 4. F.B.I. 5. Midnight 6. The Frightened City 7. Kon-Tiki Side 2 1. 36-24-36. (I was once!) 2. The Savage 3. Peace Pipe 4. Wonderful Land 5. Stars Fell on Stockton. (Place name chosen as they were in panto there!!) 6. Guitar Tango 7. The Boys 8. Dance On |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: JHW Date: 21 Jun 20 - 04:50 PM Aye it may have been a bit basic but I can still remember the melody. Can't do that with 'Murder Most Foul', which I heard last week. |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: Bonzo3legs Date: 21 Jun 20 - 04:30 PM Their brilliant guitarist Micky King apparently didn't want to go to Germany with the Rebel Rousers, so he joined James Royal and The Hawks who had a long residency at the Big Beat Club in Harrow around 1964 - same guitar bass & drums line up and supported all the guest bands. Micky had mastered the Mick Green style and performed many JK & the Pirates songs. The bass player held his bass almost level with his chin! |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: punkfolkrocker Date: 21 Jun 20 - 03:40 PM Some long time ago I read a statistic that on average more than 70 singles a week, were released. Most of 'em lost to oblivion until serious specialist nostalgia CD boxsets were marketed to us music obsessives... My memory of the exact number is a bit hazy now, "70" will do for my immediate purpose, unless a top mudcat musicology expert contradicts me; but it accounts for how us 1970s teenagers were only aware of the tip of the colossal 1960s UK music iceberg... |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: Backwoodsman Date: 21 Jun 20 - 03:39 PM Ha! We also played a couple of support gigs wIth Cliff Bennett and the Rebel Rousers! Now that was a band! And once again, nice blokes. Chas Hodges was with them at the time. |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: Bonzo3legs Date: 21 Jun 20 - 03:27 PM Yes Freddie and the Dreamers were great, my personal favourite was "If you gotta make a fool of somebody" which I first heard done by Cliff Bennett & the Rebel Rousers at The Big Beat Club in Harrow! |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: Dave the Gnome Date: 21 Jun 20 - 02:47 PM I would welcome a Freddie and the Dreamers thread. I'm telling you now, I like it! As a Mancunian I do not appreciate them being lumped in with the Scousers though :-( |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: punkfolkrocker Date: 21 Jun 20 - 02:42 PM When I first got into music aged 12 in 1971, I somehow developed an equally keen enthusiasm for contemporary rock and folk, and 1960s pop and rock... But at that time, even though the 60s music was still not that old, most of it had passed out of circulation, even been deleted.. Unless you had older siblings and their record collection, which i didn't, it was extremely difficult even knowing what 60s music had ever existed. All we had were the biggest 3 or 4 1960s bands still stocked in local record shops, or occasional greatest hits LPs slipping out at xmas... So thank the music gods for Record Collector mag many years later, and then the internet... My personal biased old blokey opinion is that very little music since the golden era of mid 50s to early 80s is worth bothering with... |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: punkfolkrocker Date: 21 Jun 20 - 01:32 PM BWM & Bonz - personally, I'd happily prefer to read a full blog of your informal reminiscences on this vitally important era in UK music culture heritage; than much of what passes as 'interesting' music discussion at mudcat... Keep going mates, defy the miseries who want to shut you down... |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: Backwoodsman Date: 21 Jun 20 - 01:30 PM We played a few ‘dance’ gigs with The Casuals, who we got on very well with. We also auditioned for ‘Opportunity Knocks’ with them at a cinema in Gainsborough - they got on the show, we didn’t! I became somewhat friendly with Howard Newcombe and John Tebb for a short while but, after their success on ‘Op. Knocks’ they moved to Italy, and I never saw them again, although I used to hear about them from time to time via other local musicians. They were a very good band, and a good bunch of lads. |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: Bonzo3legs Date: 21 Jun 20 - 01:16 PM I saw Johnny Gustafson in The Pirates during 1985 in London! |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: Bonzo3legs Date: 21 Jun 20 - 01:11 PM I used to go to Lincoln for about 7 days to do an audit of a hire purchase company. I remember going to see The Casuals with some of the girls from the client's office. It would have been around 1965. |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: Backwoodsman Date: 21 Jun 20 - 01:06 PM ”Much rather it be a Big Three thread - the most accomplished band to come out of Merseyside!!“ My band supported The Big Three at Lincoln Drill Hall in 1963 - a great band, fronted by ‘Griff’ Griffiths and Johnny Gustafson. Technically highly accomplished musicians, they were one of the most aggressive bands, performance-wise, I ever had the pleasure of playing alongside. It was only a few months later that Griff and Johnny left the band, I guess around the time of the bust-up with Epstein. An excellent band which never really achieved its considerable potential, IMHO, although Griff and Johnny went on to work with other very successful musicians and bands. |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: punkfolkrocker Date: 21 Jun 20 - 12:47 PM I'm rather keen on the fuzz guitar riffs and solos on Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick & Tich records... |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: gillymor Date: 21 Jun 20 - 12:42 PM That guitar solo on "Do the Freddy" was wicked, man. |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: Bonzo3legs Date: 21 Jun 20 - 12:19 PM "Would it be OK then if I started a Freddie And The Dreamers thread? :-)" Much rather it be a Big Three thread - the most accomplished band to come out of Merseyside!! |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: punkfolkrocker Date: 21 Jun 20 - 12:00 PM Seeing as my reasonable justified sarcastic posts have been deleted, I'll guess dick went whining to a mod...????? Dick - my Clapton comment was obviously a tongue in cheek 'in joke' which would be clearly understood by anyone who knew anything meaningful about the history of 'guitar hero worship'... So before you declare victory and continue portraying yourself as a poor innocent victim of cruel punk folk rock bullying... All you are doing is further exposing yourself as a vain petty minded phony expert on a subject you are obviously clueless about... If I have time, I might rework my deleted posts regarding your persistent deliberate bad conduct in this thread, to make them more acceptable to whichever mod [probably reluctantly] took pity on you... You're all badly behaved in this thread, and if you'd taken a look, a bunch of the off-topic squabbling was removed, from several parties. Stop the bickering, the bunch of you, you should be embarrassed by your behavior. |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: Steve Shaw Date: 21 Jun 20 - 11:53 AM Would it be OK then if I started a Freddie And The Dreamers thread? :-) |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: Backwoodsman Date: 21 Jun 20 - 09:23 AM Yep! I’d almost forgotten how much I loved them ‘back then’, and some great memories have been revived! |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: Bonzo3legs Date: 21 Jun 20 - 08:46 AM Fantastic! |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: Backwoodsman Date: 21 Jun 20 - 08:17 AM Indeed, Bonz. Everyone else understood. Thanks for starting the thread, BTW - it’s been ‘ShadowsFest’ in my house this weekend! |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: Bonzo3legs Date: 21 Jun 20 - 07:54 AM It's all a question of guitarists' banter which perhaps you wouldn't understand!! |
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: The Sandman Date: 21 Jun 20 - 07:45 AM Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago! From: punkfolkrocker - PM Date: 17 Jun 20 - 06:07 PM Bollocks to Clapton... Marvin is god...!!! that post was made, before i entered this discussion, punk folk rocker made a comparison. his hypocrisy is staggering, yet no one has a go at him for making comparisons. |
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