BS: Man's name or woman's name?

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 03:08 PM

Some jackel has showed up- (sorry, jackels, you are pretty smart. Saw on TV how jackel-dog crosses are being trained to sniff out drugs in Moscow).
McGrath, I remember Oonagh O'Neill, a daughter of that little man with the bowler and cane. Is it a "cross-dressing" name as well?
The author, Ayn Rand- is this a variant of Aine? Always pronounced ain as in ain't here. Not that it matters, most names like that get mispronounced (Sean = Seen, etc.)

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 02:22 PM

Then there's Orna, which is yet another completely different name. "Dark haired" (And nothing to do with Oonagh either.)

This started me thinking about the names we give animals. If you hear someone calling their dog "Rover" wouldn't you tend to assume that it was a male? And wouldn't you probably be right?

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 02:11 PM

I'm not exactly losing sleep over people being offended by my remarks to McGrath and katlaughing.

This is a public forum. If people insist upon publicly claiming to have authoritative knowledge on subjects they obviously know little about, then they've no one but themselves to blame when they are caught out making fools of themselves.

Sure, I could have been more polite about it, but McGrath and katlaughing have a long history of being pretty nasty to anon guests. Anon guests they disagree with/dislike often triggers their worst passive aggressive tendencies (the preferred mode of interaction of many here in Mudcat), until finally their anger grows to the point where they just can't control their behavior towards the anon guest anymore. So they start making indirect snide, cutting, critical remarks about anon guest, claiming they aren't communicating directly with them, or give "warnings" to others having a conversation with an anon guest, to try and get others to cooperate with their vendetta game.

Which then leads McGrath and katlaughing to do stupid things like they have here, which is to try and show up/put down the anon guest they love to hate. When it doesn't work, and it is them who ends up with egg on their faces, that inevitably makes a few Mudcatters feel terribly uneasy and embarrassed for them. So then Mudcatters like Amos come rushing in to play the knight in shining amour, defending the Mudcat realm from those who do not share the love for it they do, and who would dare dishonor their friends. So they too decide to go after anon guest. Same old shit, as katlaughing loves to proclaim.

Yawn.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 02:04 PM

Of course if you spell it Sioux noone would think of it as a girlie name.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 01:56 PM

Reminds me of the country song, "A Boy Named Sue."

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 01:47 PM

Not necessarily.

I'm reminded of the fella who threw up everything and went off to find himself. A couple of year later he comes back looking more miserable than ever. When asked he said that, when at least he found himself, he didn't like him at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 01:42 PM

This oriful nasty Nameless One has personal baggage leaking out her/his earholes, doesn't it?

There are better ways to remedy that than flogging your hurt superiority from a hideyhole, mate.

You could find out who you really are, and that would make things easier for you.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 01:22 PM

The strange thing about names is that you can get different names that sound the same and even look the same, but they've got there by different ways.

So you can get someone called Anne, and it's an anglicisation of Áine, and another person called Anne, as an anglicisation of the name that's descended from the biblical one, Hannah or Anna or whatever - which Áine has nothing to do with in its roots or its meaning.

Am I unjust in feeling that it is in a way bad manners to give a male name to a female baby? I mean one where it hasn't already become customary to use it in that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 12:46 PM

Michael Learned is the actress who was the mom on the Waltons.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 12:40 PM

Spaw's maw in law is Clarence. And I knew a woman named Chauncey.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST,Robinson Stanley
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 12:26 PM

What about Americans who seem to like Surnames as first names and Christian names as Surnames. ha! Ha!

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Genie
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 12:23 PM

"Claude" is another of those names that's used for both sexes (especially among the French).

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Peg
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 11:21 AM

Androgynous-sounding names are all the rage in the US now...as well as first names that sound like surnames (Jordan, Tyler, Macy, Haley, Madison, Shane and names like that are popular for girls (Morgan seems to be making a comeback, too), Cooper and Tyler are both popular for boys). Nice to get away from so many Brittanys (and of course Britneys) and Ashleys (thoguh they are beautiful names but spoiled by being so common now, like Heather and Courtney). Irish-sounding names with Americanized spellings seem to be popular too, like Catelyn.

I had an aunt and uncle who named their son Dylan (which I assumed was "Dillon" after Sheriff Matt Dillon until they told me differently) way back in the 1970s; I think that was the first wave; I have met a few young men in their early 30s with this name...

on a related topic, I am not sure what is being implied by Cluin about Sean Young's underarm hair, but she is a very beautiful woman and PLENTY of women in Europe shave their legs and not their underarms and no one implies they are unfeminine. I myself do not shave under my arms (haven't for some time) and I would defy anyone to tell me I am not as feminine as they come. Does this mean men who dye their hair or use hair-styling products are complete sissies? Sheesh. The American attitude about this stuff is dumb.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Mooh
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 10:57 AM

Alison, Shannon, Kelly, Robin (my brother's name), Michael (my name, definitely male, but isn't there an actress...?), Jean, Billy-Jo, Joe, Georgie, and on and on...

Some of the current trend towards seemingly contrived names has hit the schoolyards with a force...children finding new and imaginative ways of making fun of others by twisting their names, and I wonder if parents think of such things when they name their children. I didn't.

Mooh (pronounced Mike).

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 10:20 AM

McGrath is wrong. In the Donegal dialect, where Enya hails from, the pronounciation of the name Aine is N-ya. In the Connemara dialect, the pronouncication of the name is Awn-ya.

But go ahead and take McGrath & katlaughing's word for it folks, just so you can feel vindicated about the nasty anon guest.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Schantieman
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 10:17 AM

Marion

(can't imagine why he changed it to John Wayne!)

Stephen (male)

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Genie
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 09:56 AM

McGrath, in the US, I've never known a woman named "Sidney" but I've known of several named "Sydney."

sandra, I also have known male and females named "Kerry" and "Jade." (The boy Jade I knew was born about 1975, IIRC.)

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: allanwill
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 08:32 AM

So shove that up your left nostril, GUEST.

Allan

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 07:29 AM

Sydney, as in Sydney Carter, is never a woman's name over here that I've neard. Mind you, no name is safe from being appropriated.

I imagine in Canada there must be a lot of confusion about people called Jean. I remember a friends of mind enthsuiing about this booke they had found by this great woman called Jean Vanier. I had to tactfully get aross the message that whiole totally agreeing about Jean Vanier being great as a writer and in other ways, he's a man.

It seems pretty clear that Áine and Enya are two different names.

Áine - (AN-yuh or AW-ne) from Old Irish aine "brilliance, wit, splendor, glory"; "joy", "brightness", "fasting", "praise", or "radiance". In legend, Aine was the daughter of Fer I (Man of the Yew) and the traditional name of the queen of fairies of south Munster, an important and varied role in Celtic mythology; was believed to dwell at the place now called Knockany (Cnoc Aine, "Aine's Hill"). Also used as an Irish form of Aina, Anne.

Eithne - (AY-he-ne or ETH-nuh) "kernel or seed."

And Enya is a version of Eithne.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 07:18 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 06:55 AM

The Irish-Australian singer-songwriter Enda Kenny, had his CDs displayed in the HMV shop under a neat label saying Edna Kenny!

I have 2 male friends named Kerry (both born 1950s) - the second sends me e-mails from his work address, with a signature of (Mr) Kerry surname, whatever section, Dept of ....

I did have a male collague named Jade several years ago (born late 70's or early 80's years old)

I also know a woman named Peta who was in a meeting which also included a man named Peter. When the Chair asked Peta to speak, Peter took the floor, to great laughter from those who saw where she was looking. Peter joined in & we all had a good laugh.

At work when I receive calls from anyone named Chris, Lee/Leigh, Robin/Robyn, etc I always tick the appropriate title, the same as I do when I receive calls from people with first names from cultures that I don't recognise. This helps my colleagues when returning the call.

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 01:03 AM

Lilias is another.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST,cookieless Genie
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 12:56 AM

sian, there is a current sitcom in the US that features a female lead character named "Dylan"  (or "Dillon" -- I haven't seen it spelled).

Another relatively common man's name (nickname) in the UK that is almost exclusively female in the US is "Laurie," (although in Louisa May Alcott's time,  I guess, it wasn't all that unusual a nickname for "Laurence" in the US).

Funny thing:  I heard young folks on a talk show not long ago referring to "Ashley" as an exclusively female (or at least decidedly feminine sounding) name, apparently unaware that that was the given name of the object of Scarlett O'Hara's longing in "Gone With The Wind"  (played, interestingly enough, given this thread, by Leslie Howard).

McGrath, the male receptionist at a convalescent home in Seattle is named "Brooklyn."

I usually think of "Gene" as a man's name, short for "Eugene," but then there was the Hollywood actress "Gene Tierney" in the '40s and '50s.

And what about "Sidney" or "Sydney?"  Tom Sawyer's cousin(?) was a boy named "Sid(ney" and there have been many well known male Sidneys (Poitier, Greenstreet, Vicious, etc.), but is "Sydney" usually used for females?

"Jordan" is a pretty popular boy's name in the US these days, but there is a woman, about 90 years old,  in one of the nursing homes where I play music, whose given name is "Jordan," too.

Kat, we had a famous male "Connie" here in the US a while back: Connie Mack (Cornelius MacGillicuddy, IIRC).

And Robyn, I know a lot of females named "Robin," too.  (My brothers, FWIW, are Robin and Terry [NOT "Terrence"], and both have gotten volumes of junk mail or even business mail addressed to them as "Miss."

Other cross-gender names, historically, at least:  Hilary (or Hillary) and Carol (Carroll) [which is, I think, a variant on "Karl," "Charles," "Carlos," "Caryl," etc.)

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 12:39 AM

I'm not defending this last post of yours, Guest! Civility never is wasted, if you have a choice between that and being rude. Settle down.

Woody Allen named his youngest daughter "Dylan." I haven't heard it as a girl's name often, but before that I hadn't heard of it at all. I named my son Dylan almost 11 years ago, not realizing that American popular television had made the name a household word (Beverly Hills 90210). I chose the name because my son was born with premature lungs and spent two weeks in the Neonatal Intensive Care Unit. I was torn between a couple of names, but decided to tip my hat to Dylan Thomas' "Do Not Go Quietly Into That Goodnight." (Rage, rage against the dying of the light.) My son survived, and is named Dylan. He's a normal healthy 10-year-old, so the name seems to have been a good choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 12:23 AM

So in addition to your great knowledge of the American Indian, now you are going to pontificate on Gaelic for us katlaughing?

God, you are so bloody ignorant.

They aren't two different names. The differences in pronounciation are regional. The "Enya" spelling is a phonetic one, and it isn't one used in Ireland--my guess is, it was a marketing decision, so English speakers would be better able to pronounce the name.

Aine is the most common Gaelic spelling. Gaelic spellings can also vary, as it wasn't until very recently that the spelling was standardized, and even still, often the older spellings are used by many native speakers.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 11:35 PM

Connie is also a nickname for Conrad among French descended people, as in my late father-in-law who was French-Canadian.

Our Mudcat Aine pronounces hers awn-ya, whereas Enya is pronounced as written, from what I've heard. Two different names as far as I've heard.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Little Robyn
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 09:50 PM

Here in New Zealand (and in Oz too, I think) Robyn with a 'y' is a girls name but Robin with an 'i' is for boys. And there are lots of us too!

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Sorcha
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 09:44 PM

Lots of this is too funny, but it is still common for Hispanics to name boys Maria. As in Jesus Maria........but I can't see an Anglo boy being named Mary.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 09:23 PM

A neighbor-lady when I was young was named Leon, and I've yet to meet another female with that name.

Speaking of Ashtray being a boy's name.... My wife tells the story of friends of hers who had a baby in the 70's. They wanted to let the child choose his own name when he got old enough, but the hospital required that a name be on the birth certificate before they would release the baby to go home. The father gave the kid the name "Oil Can Son of Dan" to appease the authorities. Later, when the kid was old enough, he did choose his own name and it was legally changed.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: vindelis
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 08:22 PM

how about Poirl - pronounced Pworel. It belonged to my boyfriend's great-grandfather; and his before that. I've never heard of it before.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 08:14 PM

I suppose there's no reason why geographical names such as Chelsea and Brooklyn shouldn't be given to boys. But somehow they never seem to be. Maybe Shankill?

There's a mystery to all this. Harry Enfield's Slobs got it about right when discussing anmes for their baby:

Waynetta: What about a middle name?
Wayne: 'ow about "Ashtray"?
Waynetta: ASHTRAY'S A BOY'S NAME!

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 08:06 PM

DL Menard's first name is Doris

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 07:55 PM

Enya is surely Eithna, and wasn't she a different goddess from Áine?

At one time anyway it was quite frequent for boys to have Mary as a second name in some Catholic countries - plenty of Jean-Marie's in France for example; and in Ireland one of the poets shot after the Easter Rising in 1916 was Joseph Mary Plunkett.

Tracy a boys name? That must be American. This side it's always a girl's name, a version of Teresa, though people don't normally think of it that way.

Abbreviations always tend to be unisex. Bill, Pat, Sam etc. - that's because the names behind them come in gender pairs, and shortening them takes away the distinctive ending.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Cluin
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 07:53 PM

What about Sean Young (of Bladerunner fame)? Last time I saw her on anything though, she was sporting a healthy batch of underarm hair that sure put mine to shame.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST,wdyat24
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 07:45 PM

Aunt Peter would have been enthralled with this thread.

wdyat24

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 04:56 PM

"Dear Sir or Madam, as the case may be:"........


Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST,herc
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 04:54 PM

I know a transexual who goes by "Karel." I thought that was well done.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Sonnet
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 04:46 PM

Jay can be either female or male. Jay's the name I chose for myself, rather than my given name, Janet, which I loathe with a passion!

Jay

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 04:31 PM

I once worked in an area with a large Sikh population. Sikh forenames are not gender specific. If you don't get the middle name you are stuck.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: MMario
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 04:00 PM

I have a (female) cousin named 'Stephen'

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Sorcha
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 03:58 PM

I know women named Robin and Michael. Also, a Billie.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: C-flat
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 03:54 PM

I've come across my first name - Merrick- as both male and female.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Giac
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 03:54 PM

Ethel.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 03:50 PM

Sian, I think Dylan as a girl's name is a US thing. I have a friend who named one of her daughter's Keaton, another Hayden. She says she didn't want them to have female sounding names. It didn't make sense to me either. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 03:46 PM

I've never heard of Dylan as a girl's name .. !

Seems people think Sian is a male moniker.   (Sion is.)

Lyn gives some grief. Lindsay. And wasn't 'mother Walton' a Michael?

And, in North Wales, Eirian tends to be a girl's name and in the South (or at least in the West) it's a guy's.

sian (f.)

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 03:42 PM

Actually, I believe "Sile" is the most common Gaelic spelling of the name we in the US know most commonly as "Sheila". "Shelagh" is one of those versions of a Gaelic name that has anglicised the spelling, like Enya/Aine or Eavan/Aoibheann.

Connie is another name used in Ireland for males that is essentially a female name the other side of the pond.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 03:06 PM

Flaming Eejit...Space Cadet...Airhead....Dumdum....Entity ... Sentient Spot ... Neurological Byproduct ... Shit-for-Brains... Gaseous One... Meatball... "Correspondent" ... "Unknown Variable"
... you got LOTS of options!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 02:59 PM

Dylan

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 02:59 PM

I weasel, by addressing the sender as Dear Leslie (Jones or whatever).
I have made mistakes several times in posts here, getting the sex wrong. Leslie is one that occurs often and percentages of males and females are high. I think male because of a childhood friend with that name.
On names like Shirley, I go with the percentages. Here (US and Canada) there are hundreds of female Shirleys to every male, so I go with Ms. If the addressee happens to be male, he will be used to the mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 02:45 PM

Moon Unit