Where have the audiences gone?

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: TheSnail
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 02:21 PM

The trouble is, WLD, I don't know Al Whittle, I only know weelittledrummer through your postings on Mudcat. It seems they must be two entirely different people since weelittledrummer gives the impression that he wouldn't be caught dead in a folk club. Do those who know you chuckle when you describe them as "middle class types with a superiority complex" and heckle them for not being able to tune their guitars or remember their words without reading them from an exercise book?

I don't usually take much notice of you these days but the opportunity to point out that you and Jim were giving diametrically opposite reasons for the (alleged) absence of audiences. According to Jim, people were driven out of folk clubs decades ago by people like you and according to you, people are being driven out of folk clubs by people like Jim. I'd like to be there if you meet.

Jim has done marvellous work in the past for which we owe him an enormous debt but he seems to be somewhat out of touch with what's happening in clubs these days.

If Tootler "could go to a folk club within reasonable driving distance of Middlesbrough, where I live, every night of the week" and you go to a three or four clubs a week, it sounds as if they are thriving. I generally only manage two a week but then I go to a lot of sessions which are attracting an increasing number of young people.

I must say, it's curious to be described as "permanently pissed off" by WLD.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 10:33 AM

Well, you were one of the folks who gave me a ton of encouragement, Al, and I ain't about to forget that. If I ever get to England to do some work, you and I will hook up and perhaps I'd have the honour of you gracing the stage with me--or me with you. Split the cash after expenses, etc. I think clubs are important, but some of the attitudes that go along with some of the clubs are archaic or dated. Let's get beyond that and stay beyond that. A year from now we'll see just where the bear went in the buckwheat.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 10:27 AM

Bet it feels like that today Bruce - with that superb album out. Well done! a great achievement!

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 09:55 AM

There's a new day coming, Al.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 09:17 AM

I think the open mike things are were we tend to see most young people turning up spontaneously with something to offer - as opposed to trailing round after their demented parents - which has always been the tune session scene. Thankfully most of them discover drugs and bugger off and get a life eventually.

But it can be a rough passage for the club when they are limping through their exam pieces every week to the dismay of everybody not actually related to them.

Thinking about what you said Snail old man. jim and I have been to lots of folk clubs. I still go to them. But we know a lot of the same people - I would guess He did all the collecting and stuff like that. I was a jobbing musician taking care of a disabled wife - hustling round England - doing all sorts of gigs. In our own ways we were both devoted to folk music.

I'm hazarding a guess, but I imagine think he would say people like the Copper family were the most influential singers, and people like Michael Coleman were the most influential musicians. Ewan MacColl - the most influential songwriter in the revival.

Whereas I happen to KNOW that Chuck Berry and Bob Dylan were the biggest influence on the way people expressed themselves musically in my lifetime. I think theres a bigger picture - not sure we can see it in its totality - but I sense that its there.

However although jim and I disagree - there is mutual respect. I really can't understand why you can't manage this. after all what i say makes not a jot of difference to you. Yet you seem permanently pissed off.

i say that neither me nor any of my friends got to appear on your poncy festivals and record stations and you seem to think I've farted in the face of Christ for having the bad grace to mention this fact - which rankles, lets be frank - it rankles. Cos some of my friends were very talented when they were alive - gave their lives to their version of folk music and never got listened to.

best wishes

al

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 07:21 AM

...........several respondents above commenting on attracting youngsters into FC's & sessions.

In my neck o'the woods, there's clearly a marked increase in younger muso's attending diddly sessions, rather than in FC's/sinarounds - don't really know why - suggestions?

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 02:45 AM

quite right - not more than three or four a weeek. I just know that the ones doing well, are the ones with an open door policy - and the ones getting all the infrastructure support, are where they are always bleating on about how difficult times are - and how their valiant efforts are being rewarded by insufficient audiences.

still you horny little thing with your home upon you back - your comment will raise a chuckle amongst those who know me. I might have that one framed.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 08:23 PM

I am glad to see that Tootler in Middlesbrough is experiencing just as vibrant a folkscene as I am down here in Sussex.

According to weelittledrummer -

The trouble is, I think that the folk clubs most under the cosh are ones that have bought the traddy gospel.

Whereas Jim Carroll says -

Apart from the confusion which appears to reign on the British club scene, many of the problems are obviously down to the fact that many of the clubs have fallen into the hands of people who neither like nor understand folk song.

What these two have in common, of course, is that they rarely, if ever, go to folk clubs.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 07:34 PM

They told me, they stopped maiden 'em...

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 07:25 PM

We have plenty of maidens right here in the US if you're in need of a few. And most are lovely dancers too.

Barry

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 06:59 PM

"In Ireland, they have maidens dancing at the crossroads, whereas in England - we tend to go in for discos, down the local pub and drug fueled orgies of lust and depravity."

And in Australia, we have run out of maidens...

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 05:45 PM

Its just a question of emphasis.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 05:43 PM

That's right Geoff. The differences are purely superficial.

In Ireland, they have maidens dancing at the crossroads, whereas in England - we tend to go in for discos, down the local pub and drug fuelled orgies of lust and depravity.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Tootler
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 05:26 PM

I don't think the situation in England is anywhere near as bad as Jim Carroll portrays it, at least not in NE England, where I live.

There are plenty of clubs locally. I think I counted around 80 in "Folk Roundabout" a local publication which features folk music activity in our region, roughly between the Tees and the Scottish Border.

Certainly I could go to a folk club within reasonable driving distance of Middlesbrough, where I live, every night of the week and on some nights have a choice of several.

Not only that, but your assertion that "the clubs have fallen into the hands of people who neither like nor understand folk song." is not true in my experience. Traditional songs are sung and enjoyed and I certainly have never been made to feel uncomfortable for singing a traditional song. Obviously traditional songs are not the only ones sung, but they certainly form a major part of what is sung in many local clubs. My experience of local folk clubs is that they are very welcoming and keen to encourage newcomers.

Although folk clubs do have an ageing "membership" there are clubs that have been started up by younger folk enthusiasts, and very good they are too - at least the two I have been to are.

Add to that there are festivals round the country and it is possible to go to a folk festival somewhere in England every week throughout the summer. These range from the major festivals such as Sidmouth and Whitby to local weekend singaround type events which book no acts but rely on those going to provide the music.

There are a considerable number of young folk musicians some of whom have become known nationally, and I have personally met a number of students, some now graduates, of the Newcastle Folk Music degree and they are very talented musicians.

Obviously things are different from Ireland, and that is how it should be. Traditional music seems to get more support from the Government and more a more positive press over there, but things are nowhere near as bad in England as you paint them.

At least that's my view.

Geoff

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 01:26 PM

Is Ireland really that different from England. maybe everybody sings funny over there. they never have done when ever I've been there - except for when they're grinding out out the old sham shamrock for the tourists.

When Ronan, Daniel, Westlife, Sinead and the rest want to make themselves understood they seem to have access to the mid altantic lingua franca that is availble to all of us. You know the one that renders you helpless with laughter and confirms us in your eyes as poltroons.

Come to think of it The Bachelors are in the charts at the moment - which of their hits did they do inthe old sean nos style - myself, I forget - its been a long day.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 04:38 AM

"sometimes its hard to convince certain musicians, for some stupid, blocked reason,..being as we are dealing with sound, learn more than chops, learn sound, and sound engineering!!....Even if you are doing acoustic sets, learn blending of sound!!..it is a huge must!!"

Actually, you don't need to have any electronics to need to knew about sound!

This is why we have people singing/playing too softly/loudly! People who seem to be unable to blend in with others!

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 07:13 PM

The nice thing about a cruise is you get to see many different things and experience different people. Each trip is different.

I guess the moral of the Titanic story is that you have to keep a look to everything around you and not expect that the map you are following will be clear each time. A good captain is aware that the sea is always changing. We saw what happens when the captain doesn't pay attention.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Alan Day
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 06:05 PM

Jim I have now arranged the chairs and guess what? You have won a free ticket for the next cruise. That should cheer you up.
Al

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 05:00 PM

If you want to understand children, read "Lord of the Flies". William Golding.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 03:30 PM

WMD
"I think that the folk clubs most under the cosh are ones that have bought the traddy gospel"
I wasn't going to bother - but seeing as we appear to be in the blame game, it's a bit disingenuous to put the failure of the revival on the 'Traddies' - it seems to me that nearly all the clubs, whatever their musical persuasion, are in a mess. It's just as likely that this can be put down to singer songwriters producing material that appears to be specifically designed to exclude the listener.... or failed wannabe pop singers using the folk clubs as a convelescent home until something better comes along.
"They go for songs sang in funny voices "
Do they really? It's my understanding that the 'traditional style' is based largely on the natural voice - akin to how people speak. Some of the most hilariously funny voices I have heard have been from those performers from say Yorkshire or Aberdeenshire, desperately trying to sound as if they have just moseyed along after branding a herd of cattle.
Apart from the confusion which appears to reign on the British club scene, many of the problems are obviously down to the fact that many of the clubs have fallen into the hands of people who neither like nor understand folk song.
I believe that folk song can be both relevant and enjoyable, it just needs a little respect and understanding on the part of those involved.
If you want to see how traditional forms can be used to create new, relevant and extremely entertaining songs, have a look at 'Sing Out', the collection of old and new protest songs edited by Fintan Vallely, or Con 'Fada' O'Driscoll's 'The Spoons Murder' - streets ahead of anything I've come across being written in the UK nowadays.
Youngsters are coming to folk music here in Ireland in enough numbers to guarantee it will still be played by the next two generations. It hasn't happened to the same extent yet with singing, but there are enough new young singers appearing on the scene to give me hope that it will in the not to distant future.
Anyway, sorry to interrupt - I'll let you get back to re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 09:42 AM

"Audiences have been desensitized by over hype, and/or mediocre talent."

That's certainly part of it.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 04:40 AM

Yes indeed in England we used to have a radio show called Singing Together for schools. It would be a way of bringing together the strands of our multiracial society. A unifying force.

The trouble is, I think that the folk clubs most under the cosh are ones that have bought the traddy gospel. They go for songs sang in funny voices - resembling how no people speak, very uncatchy songs that are 'in the tradition', long boring instrumentals - and these people are immensely pleased with themselves and their music. Proably cos it says to the world - we are not of the common herd, we are folk people!

Ask yourself, are these people going to make it with kids - they have trouble getting it on with intelligent adults.

Kids really don't like complicated people. If you want to teach - take a simple idea, strip it down to its elements. Songs children will enjoy singing, dances they will enjoy dancing.

In a way - we should do this anyway. Not out of self interest for our folk revival. I can't see it sustaining in its present factionalised form past our lifetimes. I'm not all that sure it deserves to.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 04:25 AM

Unless you do something extraordinary well, and get exposure, its hard to draw much of an audience. Audiences have been desensitized by over hype, and/or mediocre talent. Another thing, and sometimes its hard to convince certain musicians, for some stupid, blocked reason,..being as we are dealing with sound, learn more than chops, learn sound, and sound engineering!!....Even if you are doing acoustic sets, learn blending of sound!!..it is a huge must!!..And don't give any attention to the 'purists' who get pissy at electronics...Every thing we've ever heard, on the radio, on a record, disc, t.v., or even live, as soon as you use a microphone, or pick-up, you're using electronics. Now if you like to play around a campfire,..don't expect a big audience. Warmest regards to all my musical family out there!!

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Alan Day
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 04:18 AM

Has anyone thought of taking the Folk Club to visit?
I was interested in the article above re moving to a synagogue and finding a new audience. I have enjoyed a visit to school giving a talk on concertinas,using a few CD tracks to show different types of playing and getting them to sing The Twelve Days of Christmas.I had two groups from five to seven and from eight to eleven. Certainly the best audience I have ever had. I know that the local Infants school sing folk songs as my Grand Daughter sings them to me. A group of musicians and singers could get an interesting act together aimed at children and from that may develop a few of the next generation of Folk Artists.
Al

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Stewart
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 04:19 PM

I had a chemist friend many years ago who lived in Tromso, Norway, way above the Arctic Circle. I asked him if he found the winter days with no sunlight depressing. He said, no. He said there was a great sense of community, and for everyone to survive those winter months they had to get together for music, dances and all sorts of other activities, and he really enjoyed that.

But unfortunately, his marriage didn't last either. Don't know what that has to do with it.

Maybe the weather is too good here in Seattle!

Cheers, S. in Seattle
maybe I should come up to Juneau again.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 03:14 PM

Rainy? You got that right, Stewart! Keep in mind that we are in the midst of a temperate rain forest and rainy days are our norm.

The way I see it is that we have ubiquitous mountains that create their own weather, we are far enough north to have to expect cool/chilly/cold temperatures, and we have the ocean at our doorstep which brings in an element of warmth. All together it adds up to moisture. Not only do we average around a hundred inches of rain each year but we experience another 100+ inches of snow!

But it is a great place to live. I've just passed my twentieth anniversary here and I'm still in the honeymoon phase. (Would that my marriage had weathered so well. *g*)

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Stewart
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 02:25 PM

Ebbie,

I think you hit on something important,
that is a sense of community.
You have to provide your own entertainment
on those cold long winter nights and rainy days.
And there are few distractions of the big city.

I was in Juneau about 10 years ago on a rainy spring day
(it seemed like all the days were rainy!).
Walking through town, it seemed that there was
some sort of little festival going on,
every gallery, shop, cafe, etc. had some sort of live music and art
and it was a great way to get out of the rain,
meet people and enjoy the arts and culture.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 02:10 PM

I grant that Juneau, Alaska, is a smallish (30,000) town but it is a vital community, one that offers many facets and levels of the various arts. For instance, we have five different levels of live theatre here, ranging from a professional troupe down to high school productions; we have painters and writers, publishing houses, music studios, professional music teachers, a symphony and more.

We have music from lyric opera down (or up!) to folk, we have concerts in halls, concerts in houses, music jams and sessions, we have song writers and song stylists, we have music festivals ranging from folk to jazz and classics, we support many bands and orchestras in this town.'

Just about everything is well attended. Three years ago I was one of four people who started a monthly folk music club which is going strong and two years ago on a top-of-the-mountain venue reachable on foot or by tram we started a 'mountain music fest' where we offer 10 twenty-minute performing sets. Last year, the manager told me, they sold 212 tickets for the fest; he was pretty happy about it. I anticipate no less this year.

Promotion, I think, is the key. That, and the tradition of supporting the arts.

We also support outside artists. In August John Prine will do a concert, Gordon Bok will do one in September, Tommy Sands one in October. These are in addition to our own local venues.

I love music in Juneau.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 01:47 AM

What I used to love was those old purple face routines, but no one does them any more.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 01:44 AM

performers......jugglers, lap dancers, thespians

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 12:16 AM

Oh, I see we got us another one. Lovely.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 10:16 PM

Question that might be of help. How often do YOU go see performers?

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 09:58 PM

"youre obnoxious, ya gobshite"

The 1954 or 1967 definition of gobshite?

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 09:56 PM

I will have you know that a truckload of Viagra was stolen today in Montreal. The police are now looking for hardened criminals. FYI!

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: GUEST,Fionnghuala
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 09:09 PM

who ya callin obnoxious, gulver, youre obnoxious, ya gobshite. An what r u doin in whelans bof? young pussy coke or viagra lol. yur only a loadashites

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 08:27 PM

shaved its ass and made it walk backwards

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 07:43 PM

Al, I had a dog like that.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 07:32 PM

No but between those dates they were still FOLK.

And you can bet your ass that what they heard was more like folk music than what they heard when they were watching the watch pot of the great folk revival boil itself dry.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 07:21 PM

I think that missing generation may be part of the problem. Were they all into punk or making millions in the city during the Thatchr years?

a) Yes.
b) No.

(Phil, 47, didn't really listen to folk between Commoners' Crown and James Yorkston's Rosemary Lane, currently making up for lost time.)

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 07:14 PM

Thanks for the kind words, Alan, though I must make it clear that I am only one of an extended committee, fellow Mudcatters Valmai Goodyear and Breton Cap being others. It takes team work.

Getting stuff into schools could be an interesting idea but not sure how to set about it. I gather music teaching of any sort is not what it was.

Interestingly, one of the local tune sessions has been attracting young people. Last time, there were about fifteen over fifties and five under twenty fives (or younger). I think that missing generation may be part of the problem. Were they all into punk or making millions in the city during the Thatchr years?

See you at the John Harvey Tavern in a couple of months.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 06:31 PM

I have secreted the audiences in my left armpit. I will not release them until the ransome is paid.

Them as die will be the lucky ones. Ah-ha!

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Alan Day
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 05:11 PM

Well The Snail you run one of the best Folk Clubs I have attended.You above all are welcoming to guest artists,you run workshops on a regular basis most of which are a full house during the day and for the concert spot in the evening.As residents you do not dominate the sing arounds but give everyone an equal turn. You are not running your club for yourself and self promotion, but for the love of Folk Music.There is a very strong Folk Scene in Lewes and you help to promote it.You can do no more than you are doing.Promotion in local schools to invite youngsters along free to join the sessions is the only suggestion I can offer, but just carry on and I will join you when I can.
Al

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 04:31 PM

"Where have all the audiences gone?
Long time passing,
Where have all the audiences gone?
Long time ago.
Where have all the audiences gone?
Gone as relics, every one.
When will they soon return?
Oh when will they soon return?

Where have all performers gone?
Long time passing
Where have all performers gone?
Long time ago.
Where have all performers gone?
Gone to show biz, every one.
When will they ever earn?
Oh, when will they ever earn?

Where have all the folk-stars gone?
Long time passing.
Where have all the folk-stars gone?
Long time ago?
Where have all the folk-stars gone?
American Idols, everyone.
Who cares if they return?
Who cares if they return?

Where have all the folksongs gone?
Long time passing,
Where have all the folksongs gone?
Long time ago?
Where have all the folksong gone?
They'll outlive us, every one.
Why should we have concern?
Oh why should we ever have concern?

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 04:19 PM

Now it may be different in the USA. I suspect not. I remember in, let's see, I think it must have been 1973. Anyone remember "Melody Maker"? Back then it was teh ONLY muso's music paper. They gave out a tee-shirt to readers who got a letter printed.

Much bewailing! Why do people want disco shit in stead of real music? (that meant - "real live progressive rock")

I wrote to tell them. People go out to look for a fuck. Dancing is an entrenched part of our courtship ritual. Prog rock one sits and listens too. Result, no fuck.   So people want disco music.

I must ahve kept that tee-shirt for over 10 years...

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 04:08 PM

Y'know, a couple of years before the "folk" boom, there was a big commercial audience for polkas. Then there wasn't. Does anyone think that polka music is dead as a result?

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: GUEST,Rich
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 03:56 PM

Personally, I'm not surprised when things change for a while (i.e. audience numbers). Everything moves in cycles, audiences go up, and down, things become 'cool' and then 'uncool'.

Paddy Maloney, in a Chieftans documentary was explaining that when they started in the mid-60's the scene in Ireland was on its arse, including sessions. It was an old man's game, no-one was interested. It was uncool. (I'm paraphrasing, but that's basically what he was saying) The Chieftan's, Planxty et al certainly helped to turn that around. Obviously similar things happened in England and elsewhere. It will happen again, and, I believe, is happening now.

The number of young artists is amazing, the likes of Kris Drever, Bella Hardy, Ruth Notman, Mawkin:Causley, Wheeler Street, Breabach, Shona Kipling and Damien O'Kane, Jeanna Leslie and Siobhan Miller etc. etc. etc. etc. There was a band called Jiggawatt at my local folk club two weeks ago whose average age must have been about 16. These people are, and will over time, bring more with them, just like has happened before. There is phenomenal talent selling CDs and tickets. I admit that a lot of the younger audiences may, at the moment, be at the younger-festivals (Shepley, Chester etc. in my neck of the woods), and not at the club scene, but young people are out there playing and listening to this music, and I believe over time, it will spread.

(And by the way I'm not on about singer-songwriter festivals and concerts, I'm on about people playing predominantly traditional songs and tunes, but young people, with a love for it and an attitude to boot.)

However, I agree clubs, concerts etc. have to be attractive to younger audiences. Good PA, good quality advertising (in the right places), excellent young acts, good venues etc. etc. But please knock this stuff off about young people not being able to listen, it really gets on my tits, and is completely ageist, and crap. Some young people can't shut up and listen, some old people can't shut up and listen. It's nothing to do with age!!

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 02:43 PM

Knock on wood (I don't want to jinx things) we have done pretty well at Richmond Folk Music in developing and keeping a following. We started small in a venue that only seated 40 at the most. Towards the end of the first year we were usually filling that. It helped that, as a result of booking a wonderful man who sang Yiddish folk songs we ended up with several members of a local synagogue who came to the Yiddish concert, then were intrigued and started sampling some of the other concerts. When we lost that venue, the synagogue offered us the use of their space for a minimal fee. That brought even more synagogue members in, and they promote the concerts in their newsletters. Some Irish acts got the local Irish American Society interested, and many of them sample other types of concerts as well. We don't do any advertising that we have to pay for, but we do utilize as many free calendar listings as possible and have developed an e-mail list. I make it a point to let special interest groups know when we have something of interest to them. We've also been lucky in that all the acts we've booked have been very good and entertaining, as well as informative. We do a mix of local and touring performers but none of them are big folk "names". But I work pretty hard on putting up a good description of the act on the website, and send out three e-mails prior to the concert in which I give quite a bit of information about what to expect (and of course I make it sound very interesting - which it usually is anyway). We only book traditional folk (I don't want to get into a debate as to what that is, OK?) but basically it means no singer/songwriters although if people do mostly traditional and want to throw in some of their own compositions or a few covers that is acceptable as long as it is in the traditional style. We charge $12.00 for advance tickets, $15.00 at the door and that includes coffee and cookies or cake. We make it a point to promote the concert as an alternative for older folks - who really don't have that many options! Most of our audience is 50 plus, and they really appreciate the idea of being able to have a nice dinner then come out to the concert for dessert, coffee and music. We cross promote with another concert series in Richmond that mostly books singer songwriters - I announce their upcoming concerts and they put our flyers out at theirs - and we've had some 'cross fertilization' so that works all around.

Another good thing that has happened, especially since we moved to the synagogue, is that the audience is starting to get to know one another and they socialize over the refreshments. It helps that the synagogue space is very, very comfortable, inviting, good acoustics, parking, and handicapped accessible...we've been lucky!

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 10:53 AM

There you have it then. Eric tried to get through to you, and so did I, but you cannot grasp what we are suggesting.   Best of luck.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 10:48 AM

Ron, I am not looking for easy solutions I am looking for ideas, suggestions, hints and tips, things I can act on that might help. You don't appear to have anything practical to offer that we aren't doing already.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 09:40 AM

Snail- I think your problem is becoming obvious to all us. You are looking for an easy answer and not listening and observing. Every situation is different and several of us have given you suggestions and tried to lead you to your own answer.   The experience that I have described with my own club is showing some positive results, but as I say, it is still a work in progress. We are seeing the audience grow and a number of younger faces. It is a positive experience and we have learned to embrace changes and still remain true to our core goals.

Also, re-read my statement. I never said it was wrong to ask a young person about their feelings. What I said was that I don't think you were really listening to their response and looking for a direct answer. You need to examine more.

You are asking the right questions, but I think you are expecting an easy answer and not paying attention to what people are telling you, based on your responses and interpretations in this thread. Believe me, that is something that I have done and all of us do. We all need to take a step back now and then.

Gulliver, Pip and Fionnghuala made some wonderful points. A young audience is going to be attracted to music that they want to be attracted to. Every generation FINDS their own muse. I could not sit my own children down and tell them what music to listen to. It is a self-discovery. The artists that are carrying on the traditions, the young people, are finding their own path - and their own audience.   Sometimes it takes those of us who are the "elders" to open our minds and ears to accept this and see why they are attracted to the Foghorn String Band, Crooked Still, Red Molly, etc.

This summer I went to several festivals. At age 51, I was still a "kid" at some of the events, but when I went to Falcon Ridge, I became the old man. Much of the music at Falcon Ridge is contemporary singer-songwriters, but the influence and new interpretation of trad music was in the air. When I witness Anthony Da Costa reduce an audience to tears, I am amazed - especially when I know that he is just entering his senior year of high school!! I'm wearing T-shirt that are older than he is!

Sometimes all it takes is offering these artists to an audience that will bring in a younger crowd and help erase the images of the stodgey folk scene that has been sterotyped since the 1950s. Once they become comfortable, they might take the path that we did - exploring new and old artist.

Of course, we are talking compromise. From what I gather of the "folk club" scene in the UK, the idea of compromise might be an issue. However, based on the original premise of this thread - it might be more easily acceptable in the U.S.   Stewart's issue in Seattle could be turned around.