Where have the audiences gone?

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 09:18 AM

I think we need to be clear on what the problem is. It certainly isn't that nobody under 30 is going to folk clubs anywhere, or even that nobody under 30 is doing the old stuff. Some of the performers I saw last night looked distinctly age-deprived - and that includes the bloke who stopped the show with his rendition of Spancil Hill.

Where there is an imbalance, in my experience, is in the audience in the proper sense - the regular punters who don't perform. I don't think that's a 'folk' problem - I just think it's hard to get people to come out & listen to live music in any numbers, and it's that much harder with younger people.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Gulliver
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 08:48 AM

I find that observation by MikeofNorthumbria interesting. I live in Ireland where we've got very few folk clubs but there are sessions, gigs, concerts and other venues.

Last year I went to see an Irish musician, who does mainly his own version of traditional songs, in the Cobblestone, a good folk venue in Dublin. He's still good and has great songs and he would have packed the place 30 years ago--this time around, for most of the evening, I was the only person in the audience. Just after that the Foghorn String band played there and the place was packed (mainly with young people)--and bluegrass is a real minority interest in Dublin. Around that time Prison Love, a young Irish group who play a mixture of bluegrass/zydeco, played in Whelans, a much larger venue, and to my great surprise the place was totally packed out--average age around 20-22. Meanwhile, at the bluegrass gigs that I go to, where most musicians are middle-aged, there is practically no audience (besides myself!) of any age.

My take on this (and I go to a lot of venues in Dublin): young people go out, they want young groups, they want a bit of fun. Older people stay at home and watch TV--they don't even go to the local any more. Nothing will change this.

As obnoxious as her comments were, I fear that Guest,Fionnghuala does represent the viewpoint of many young people.

Don

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 08:48 AM

So basically, Ron, you haven't got a clue either. What is so wrong about asking people, especially someone young who shows an interest, for practical suggestions?

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 08:17 AM

Snail - I never said you were playing to empty houses. Again, you aren't comprehending what we have been telling you. You are asking the right questions, but I'm not sure you are open to finding answers. You need to observe more and listen when young people give you answers, since you said you've asked them. My guess is you were looking for a direct answer - which won't come. You need to read between the lines.

There is no magic answer that will suddenly open your doors to young people, but there are ways of making your venue more friendly - IF that is what you truly want.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 08:16 AM

A few more thoughts on the perennial topic: how might we attract more people - particularly young people - to folk venues? Here are a few suggestions, some more serious than others.

Lose most of the chairs and tables. Kids want space to mill about in, not a structured environment that looks suspiciously like a classroom.

Keep the lights dim. The nervous and friendless can remain anonymous, while the confident and attractive cultivate an aura of mystery in the gloom.

Get in a powerful PA system. Youngsters like their music loud, whether they're listening to it or just using it as a backdrop for their social lives. And they rarely maintain a respectful silence during a performance - even by an artist they admire - so you'll need mega-volume, whatever.

Book acts that look drop-dead cool and display shedloads of attitude. If they sound good that's useful, but not essential. Young audiences prefer stylish icons they can identify with (or lust after) to accomplished musicians who don't look the part.

Recruit a few bouncers. Peaceable punters will be reassured that there is protection on hand in case trouble breaks out. Rowdy ones will feel flattered that the management thinks they're hard enough to need restraining by professional security.

Display a wide range of alcopops and bottled lagers at the bar. Definitely no hand-pumps - we are what we drink, and ale is terminally uncool.

Instruct the door staff to turn away everyone who seems to be over 25 - unless they are recognisable celebrities.   

Finally, do not permit the word "Folk" to be uttered anywhere in the establishment, because it is the kiss of commercial death.   

In short - for folk clubs to attract young people in large numbers, they must cease to be folk clubs as we oldsters have known them.   From a historical perspective, this is no big deal. Folk clubs were the voice of our generation, and as we die off, so will they. But the music will survive somewhere or other. Whether it's at festivals, sessions, open mikes, or just in people's homes matters little, so long as the tunes are played and the songs sung.

Eventually, another generation of youngsters may re-invent the folk club - in their own way, and on their own terms.   If any of us are still around, we probably won't like the result much. And if we do happen to like it, they'll probably re-invent it all over again, because upsetting the old folks is one of the functions of a healthy youth culture.

Wassail!

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: glueman
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 07:33 AM

I was about to write 'barmaid' when I remembered maids of any kind are thin on the ground hereabouts, even thinner by the time they're old enough to pull a pint.
I appreciate it's a generic term that doesn't preclude intersexuals and those who simply (in the memorable words of one entrapped high court judge) 'enjoy the freedom only a skirt can give' but bar girl came out unbidden. Either way folk is off the menu and drinkers can enjoy their ale without being troubled by invitations to repeat a chorus.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 07:09 AM

"Last night I visited our local who had begun to have a folk groups and asked the bar girl if there was any music on. 'No', she admitted, 'not for a while. It was scaring the regulars away'."

If it was a bar girl serving you rather than a barmaid, I'm not surprised. Your local's not in Pattaya, is it? (tee-hee!)

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: glueman
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 06:35 AM

The problem isn't with the music, it's the club part that doesn't appeal. Rachel Unthank seems to be filling the airwaves, festival and awards circuit with her brand of acoustic sexiness but as people are all too ready to tell us, it's probably not folk. Young people appear not to care - in considerable numbers. Why an under 25 would want to go into a folk club (present company and exemplars excepted) is all too obvious.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 06:12 AM

Ron, you seem to think we are sitting in an empty room with a hand written notice on the door saying "Flok Club- Keep Out".

We advertise in the Folk Diary which is distributed over Sussex (pop 1.5 million) and beyond and Folk London. We have a website. We produce handouts that go to other clubs over a wide area and to local libraries and tourist information centres.

We run theme nights. We run workshops (follow the link on the website).

Yes, I have gone to festivals with "theme" workshops. I help run some of them.

We book young guest performers and, sometimes, they bring in a young audience but they don't come back next week.

OK, we could run a "teen night" but how do we get them to come? If I was a teenager and a bunch of "old folkies" were running a teen night, I'd run a mile.

We do have regular audiences. What we don't have is YOUNG audiences.

Asking a young enthusiast what we can do in practical terms to draw young people in doesn't seem to have got me very far.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: glueman
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 04:09 AM

Someone may have made the point already - and I'm certainly not going to read the whole thread - but the difference between the sixties' popularity and now is down to fashion. For a fleeting moment folk captured a counter cultural, back-to-nature mood that almost made its way into the mainstream.

Folk clubs were where you graduated when you'd finished with youth clubs. The fact a young man or woman could meet someone of the opposite sex while bathing in imagined history and tolerable beer didn't mean those individuals were serious folk enthusiasts or historians, clubs were simply the default night out for those who didn't fancy the Palais. My impression is the vibe lasted into the middle seventies but by the eighties folk clubs had degenerated into a happy clappy spin off of church groups with anything approximating folk music very much at a premium.
Last night I visited our local who had begun to have a folk groups and asked the bar girl if there was any music on. 'No', she admitted, 'not for a while. It was scaring the regulars away'.

That, as we may once have said, is where we're at.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 03:58 AM

The rule applied then just as much as now. But in 1960 we were offering something the people wanted - then. And dressing it up as we were in the "alternative" clothes in vogue at the time, it was attractive to the young audiences. But 2010 audiences don't want the same as 1960 ones, see what difference 50 years has made in the tastes in films, theatre, music, comedy, entertainment etc.

Also, what counted as a decent environment in 1960 would not wear long in 2010. Expectations in this have changed too.

And with plenty of entertainment to be had for free on the internet, prices are under pressure now also.

So, the rule remains constant. But the parameters did not.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 03:23 AM

If that is so now George, why was it not so in the 60s?

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 02:30 AM

Ron,
This - and many other similar threads are exaxctly about definitions.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 11:16 PM

Oh, and by the way I agree with Ron that we can all learn lessons from others. Clubs learning from festivals is just the start of it.

Preserving or promoting this or that category of music is a wholly different bag. You can ride it on the back of attracting audiences if you want (though it will not always be the best vehicle for what you want to achieve), but it has nothing to do directly with attracting audiences in itself.

Breezy has that right. He provides entertainment, and then lets slip some folk in between to the unsuspecting. That way he catches some, but that is not his main driver or criterion for success. No, that is judged by how many punters are waving their arms madly in the air doing the "pump"!

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 10:42 PM

What a lot of hot air in this thread, people finding the opportunity to vent on what is (or isn't) folk, why a festival's success cannot inform a club's running, why a cafe/house concert is different to a UK club, and of course what the Government should (or shouldn't) do about it.

And yet the question seemed so simple. It asked about the disappearance of audiences, not afficionados of this or that genre, membership card holders, locals, youngsters or bus-pass owners.

The answer has to be about plain supply and demand I think, and what drives them. Give the audiences something entertaining in a decent environment at a decent price, at a decent time of the day and a decent day in the week (whatever works in your area), advertise it properly, invest time, effort and probably money, take care of the proceedings, quality-control the performers/performances, ensure troublemakers are turned away or are otherwise controlled, and you might have a chance.

Subsidies help, but only to patch the inadequacies of whichever of the above is weak. No entrepreneur depends on subsidies.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 10:01 PM

First, I was not at Womad - but Eric offered some great suggestions that could be implemented by any club.

Eric mentioned that Womad "educated" their audiences with brochures. Think about your club, how would someone that has no knowledge of your the music you present be made to feel welcome and knowledgeable?   Can you do something like "teen night" or perhaps some handouts that can explain what you do BEFORE someone sets foot.

Eric also mentioned about gatherings for specific styles. People come out for "events" or something special. Throw a little Barnum into your thinking and create something special. You don't throw out your core features, but you find ways to throw a spotlight on them.

I can tell you about one of the clubs in our area - Sanctuary Concerts.   They have done "theme" shows. They put together a Bob Dylan Birthday party - the artists did cover songs. They put on a Valentine's Day show and gave everyone chocolate desserts. I was involved in one concert with three songwriters - we did an informal "chat" where I conversed the artists about their craft of songwriting.   I don't know if you have gone to festivals with "theme" workshops, but they are a great source of ideas.

What Eric was trying to explain to you is that Womad apparently thinks outside of the box and comes up with ways of making an audience part of the show.   You need to sit back and examine such events, even events that are not part of your genre, and see what they are doing right.

It ain't the field of dreams. If you simply build it, they won't come. You need to put in some work for results. Even minimal efforts in the right place can bring results.

I should also say that the club I'm involved with is a work in progress. We are seeing our audience return and I know the folks that show up enjoy themselves and come back again.   As I noted from watching Sanctuary Concerts and from what I gathered from Eric's note about Womad, you can learn a lot by watching others.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 09:24 PM

WFDU - Ron Olesko

You aren't seeing that there is a connection and the reasons Womad works can be a lesson for a small club.

No I'm not. Perhaps I'm just being dim. Spell it out for me. Give me an example of one of those lessons.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 09:13 PM

"I'm asking for new ideas but I'm not be offered anything practical. "

The ideas are there, but you are on the wrong plane. You keep harping on the fact that one is a festival and the other a local club. You aren't seeing that there is a connection and the reasons Womad works can be a lesson for a small club. You just can't see the forest because of the trees.

The reasons that people go to a festival are not because of the size - it is because of the attitude, the music, and most importantly - the way they are treated.   As soon as you can understand that you can begin to translate into what is appropriate for your club.   It boils down to reasons why people go to ANY event regardless of size.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 08:59 PM

WFDU - Ron Olesko

Snail, I think you seriously are missing the point that Eric has trying to explain to you.

Yes I am but I'm not doing it deliberately. I have been involved in folk clubs and folk festivals for many years and I know that they are very different things.

He isn't saying that a folk club should be run like Womad, but look at what they are doing right and why it works.

They are doing what is right and what works for a folk festival. They are taking place over one weekend a year with multiple events in 1000 seat concert tents, booking acts that probably charge more to get out of bed than our annual turnover and spending similar sums on national advertising. They are employing professional organisers backed up by an army of volunteers.

Half a dozen volunteers run a weekly club in a single room with maximum capacity fifty. We finance ourselves from the raffle and singaround nights. You are just not comparing like with like.

If you are interested in growth and perpetuation, you need to look for new ideas.

I'm asking for new ideas but I'm not be offered anything practical.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Joe_F
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 08:38 PM

I'm weird in a lot of ways, but FWIW: For me the question is why I *ever* go to public performances, when I can listen to recordings and/or download the words & sing the songs to myself.

1. Sentimentality. There are people whose recordings have introduced me to songs I cherish, so I go to their concerts, when within reach, as a gesture of gratitude. Every year, tho, a couple more of them die.

2. Conviviality. Sometimes people invite me to go along with them. Then I get to chat with them at dinner, and to talk about the songs with them, and maybe a hug too. Happens maybe once a year.

The actual experience of being part of an audience is one that, on the whole, I do not enjoy. There is no reason to expect the performance to be better than a recorded one, and then there is the dreary ritual of applause (makes a good time to fart is the best I can say for it).

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 08:30 PM

"I'm afraid a folk club can't be like WOMAD anymore than a corner shop"

Snail, I think you seriously are missing the point that Eric has trying to explain to you.   Think outside of the box. He isn't saying that a folk club should be run like Womad, but look at what they are doing right and why it works. If you take the time to step back and observe, you might discover a few things.

The next step is to get over preconceived ideas and fears of change. If you truly want things to stay the way they are, then that is your direction and you take what you get. If you are interested in growth and perpetuation, you need to look for new ideas.   

Any business that sits around doing nothing will eventually fail. That my friend, is a fact. Your club is a business.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Melissa
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 08:19 PM

I'll pm you later tonight..and allow this thread to return to it's regularly scheduled distraction..if that's ok?

I might be able to come up with something that you could adapt and/or use as a launchpoint for better ideas.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 08:15 PM

Stewart - I would suggest approaching the Folklore Society again. The fact that you have different agendas can work for both sides. Unlike some of the posters on Mudcat, "folk music" audiences in the U.S. tend to have more diverse tastes and accept the fact that there are different traditions - both traditional and contemporary.   You can work together, sharing mailing lists, distributing flyers at each others events, etc.   I really think it is important that everyone in the area realizes they are working together. A "scene" does not develop if there is only one venue.

It sounds like a very interesting series, but I can see it is a tough one to "sell" if the artists are not very well known. Still, you can build some excitement. Where do you distribute your flyers? Are there local newspapers that give you coverage? Are there any central areas with bulletin boards - libraries, supermarkets, etc?    How about radio? Do you have a website?

I realize from an earlier comment that you might be strapped for volunteers that can do the work, but you would be surprised at how fast some of it can be done in an hour or two of sitting in front of the computer.   

Have you checked for Yahoo newsgroups that are dealing with your area?

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Stewart
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 08:14 PM

... I'd welcome any and all.

S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Melissa
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 08:12 PM

Stewart:
Nah..three is a magic number!

Does your trio still have energy and interest enough to keep putting effort into it? Burnout can sometimes be cured by an injection of new ideas to consider..

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Stewart
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 08:08 PM

... and we're on the verge of serious burnout. I know, we need more volunteers, we've certainly tried but so far with no luck. The club isn't interested and every one else is too busy.

S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 08:06 PM

Stewart - I realise it sounds like a completely different discussion, but I don't think your problems are that far from ours. It's just not easy to get people to come out and listen to traditional music - or even to (local/unknown/semi-pro) singer-songwriters.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 08:06 PM

GUEST,EricTheOrange

maybe you should ask why they will do that but you can not get them to attend local events?

I am asking. I was hoping you might be able to emlighten me. I'm genuinely interested in any contribution you have to make but I'm afraid a folk club can't be like WOMAD anymore than a corner shop can be like a supermarket.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Melissa
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 08:03 PM

Stewart:
...and there are three of you who actively Want a thriving program?

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Stewart
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 07:57 PM

Melissa,

"Is the handful of people (connected with the building) that seem content with monthly meetings AGAINST having the place used more frequently, or are they just kind of not particularly interested in actively working toward serving/drawing the community?" Yes to both. They did things in the past, but are now too old and tired to do much of anything, but they are still in control.

Here's an announcement of our upcoming series that I just wrote up for the Seattle Folklore Society Flyer. It will give you a flavor of what we do.

The Haller Lake Arts Council begins its monthly "2nd Saturdays at the club" concert series. They aim to bring local artists and musicians together with the community for the benefit of all. On Sept. 13 The Cutters, a Northwest family band, will sing songs of British Isles and North American seafaring traditions, with heart-felt vocals, backed by guitars, banjos, bodhran, whistle, and driving percussion. And Molly Bauckham and Davy Axtell, a Seattle duo who perform on guitar, harp, hammered dulcimer, flute and vocals, will play music from lands of the Britons and the Celts. The Righteous Mothers will perform on Oct. 11. They are four funny, philosophical female folk-rock musicians who have performed together for the past 26 years. They surprise and delight young and old, gay and straight, male and female with their quirky humor and open hearts. November features Tania Opland & Mike Freeman playing hamered dulcimer, guitar, violin, cittern, Native American flute, percussion, with songs in many languages and rhythmic roots from Siberia to Morocco. In December Jean Sherrard will present a Holiday Special of dramatic reading and stories. He is coauthor, with Paul Dorpat, of "Washington Then and Now." The DownTown Mountain Boys, the Pacific Northwest's most exciting and accomplished bluegrass band, will play in January. And Crookshank, Seattle's hottest folk-rock band, will play in February. Concerts for March, April and May will be announced later.

It's not all folk music or even traditional, but hopefully something that will appeal to many people. It's just getting people in the community to recognize that there is good local live music, and getting them out to experience it. Yes it is like "Swimming Uphill."

Ron, yes I have tried to work with the SFS. I've even produced a couple of concerts for them in the past. But they have a different agenda (not folklore or even anything to do with Seattle). We're not in competition, we just do different things.

Cheers, S. in Seattle
And now back to the UK, seemingly stuck in a roundabout of folk clubs and tradition vs non-tradition. (just kidding!)

Subject: Report from a folk club
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 07:28 PM

Buzzing. 18 acts, two of them unaccompanied, plus a mandola, a uke, a banjo and a lot of acoustic guitars. Spancil Hill, Out of the Window, a couple of tunes and Frankie and Albert, plus a lot of covers and a lot of original material.

There's obviously an audience for this kind of mixture, and some of tonight's bill was very good - including some of the original stuff. But it doesn't seem unreasonable to me to say that most of it wasn't folk.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 07:15 PM

'widen the terms of reference....stupid, stupid, stupid'

okay lets see what a bloody marvellous experiment narrowing the terms of reference has been.

You've narrowed it so even educated members of the working classes can't relate to it. Just a gang of professional ...what? I hesitate to give them a title.

The great sadness is that so many talented people have bought into the lie that folk music is about a dead culture, like Latin verse or something. Songs about things we haven't experienced and scarcely understand.

The fact is that you've turned the idea of folkmusic on its head. Its a sort of chamber music for middle class types with a superiority complex.

The folk art of playing the guitar is regarded as unimportant - compared to the cardinal virtue of having solidarity with that tradition that has bypassed every family in the land that I have ever met.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Melissa
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 06:54 PM

Stewart:
That sounds like a fun project..except maybe for the Swimming Uphill aspect.

Is the handful of people (connected with the building) that seem content with monthly meetings AGAINST having the place used more frequently, or are they just kind of not particularly interested in actively working toward serving/drawing the community?
Have they tried things that failed..and gotten pessimistic?

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 05:22 PM

If you want to attract a larger audience, you have to do what that audience wants to listen to. That--obvious as it may be--has nothing to do with whether what's being performed is folk music or not.

From a historical perspective, traditional folk music is probably doing much better today than it was in all the years before the 60s-70s "folk" boom, which was a pop music phenomenon, anyway.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 04:55 PM

Regarding Eric's post and Steve's reply the Open Mike group round here don't run multiple stages & they get & keep an audience.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: GUEST,Fionnghaile
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 04:42 PM

OMG your so jaded except maybe Eric the orange sometimes. i wish he wasnt so bloody serious=lighten up will ye? the rest of you are so past it. I bet your older than my dad. at least hes a good singer. when hes sober lol. i wouldnt be seen dead in a 'folk club' where theres no craic only a bunch of wannabes. the only place for trad music is a good session.

But Jim Carroll was right and said why are the adiences smaller=cos theyve all died. I think my da threw a pint over him once, dunno why. well i'm off to a festival, not folk, or three and afterwards well find a good session.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 04:34 PM

"This is just untrue -- there are plenty of all ages who travel a long way at great expense to go to festivals big and small with acts known and unknown -- maybe you should ask why they will do that but you can not get them to attend local events?"

Therein also lies the answer. You go to a festival, you don't like the act on the mainstage, you wander off to another stage. Local events and clubs don't work that way.

Steve

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: GUEST,EricTheOrange
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 02:54 PM

TheSnail -- you said "All your suggestions seem a little vague. Holding up WOMAD, which is once a year on a massive scale, is not much use as an example for a club that meets once a week in a room with maximum capacity 50; Cara Dillon and Show of Hands don't play that sort of venue these days. You say "don't choose a hall or back room of a pub". Where then?"


I'm sorry you do not seem to be getting my point covered in my previous posts so there is not much point in me continuing further with this -- it seems unlikely that more words from me will help much so this will be my last post except to note -- you also said

"Actually the asnwer to "where have the audiences gone" is "They've all grown old and don't get out much anymore".

This is just untrue -- there are plenty of all ages who travel a long way at great expense to go to festivals big and small with acts known and unknown -- maybe you should ask why they will do that but you can not get them to attend local events?

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 02:54 PM

"Ron, you should read the second of the definitions you cite more carefully. "
Trust me, I did. If you wish to discuss further, either a PM or a different thread please.

"People don't go out to listen to a night of 'music' - they go to listen to jazz, or classical, or country-and-western, or garage, or hip-hop."
Or they go to an evening of YOUR definition of folk.

Jim, we just have a failure to communicate. I can only answer your question so many times.   Please, either a PM or a different thread.   Let's stay on topic, and it is not a topic about definitions.


Now back to the topic - Woody hit on it - "I think their secret is they make going to one of their things seem fun."    In order to do that you need to think outside of normal realm - educating and entertaining and providing a sense of "cool".   

Stewart - I would suggest trying to work with the local folk club. It seems as if they have gone off in a different direction and if they have any brains they would realize that everyone needs to work together. I think we can see in this very thread what divise activity leads to.    Here in NJ, we do cross-promote each other. A healthy community has lots of choices.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 02:42 PM

Ugh - could a mod look in and fix my blue clicky back here?

Subject: RE: Where have all the audiences gone?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 02:41 PM

Ron
One more time:
I have no problem with your first two - have agreed on numerous occasions with you and others but-
"There is a community of people who have created their own tradition in modern times. You can choose not to recognize it, but you just need to get out and look around you to see that "folk music" is a much larger community than you choose to give credit to."
Who are these and what do they have to do with the other two?
I saw very little example of these when I quit the clubs - that's why I quit; the second lot appear to coincide with the people who replaced them and used the clubs as a cultural dustbin.
The question is "Where have all the audiences gone?"
In the eighties the majority of the clubs disappeared and the audiences more than halved.
I would guess that what you are seeing now is the residue dying off (or maybe they can't get their wheelchairs up the stairs).
We pissed off because the clubs failed to live up to their descriptions. The number of people who remained were never really replaced - simple as that.
I went to a club in London last time I was there, that I had frequented on a fairly regular basis. It was almost as if I'd slipped out for a pee and returned a few minutes later - the heads were either grayer or balder, more wrinkles - but the same faces, though much less of them.
The solution so far seems to have been 'let's widen our terms of reference to draw in more people' - stupid, stupid, stupid. People don't go out to listen to a night of 'music' - they go to listen to jazz, or classical, or country-and-western, or garage, or hip-hop.
If I turned up for a night of chamber music at the R.F.H. and found a barbers shop trio - no matter how good they were, I'd be pretty hacked off - I certainly wouldn't go back. The same applies (in my case applied) if I went to a folk club and found a group of tossers mumbling their way (usually badly) through Buddy Holly resurrections.
If folk clubs put on folk music proper, and perform it well - and it still doesn't attract audiences - then the music will have failed and it could be argued that it is no longer relevant as a performed art.
The way things are at present, we'll never know.
If you want to see what can be achieved when you do it properly have a look at the thread on the Irish Trad. Music Archive and see what you'r e missing.
As it is while the folk growth continues to be overrun by th parasite - well - enjoy the funeral.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 02:41 PM

I was at Womad 2008 and can agree with Eric that Show Of Hands got a good turn out. I go to a few festivals a year but when I've looked at our local FC offerings there's been nothing very enticing - if you can find out anything about them at all that is as many of them seem unaware of the existence of the Internet, or if they do the web pages are uninformative or many times broken.

I live in a rural area and we have a local Open Mike society that organize regular events around the area, they regularly get a good turn out of punters and acts (averaging maybe 15 performers and maybe 50 watchers) with the acts varying from poor to excellent, and they do a lot to get younger people and people of diverse styles joining in. Recently they put on a show of local performers in a pub's garden on a Sunday afternoon & evening, combined with stuff for the kids and a BBQ, and they got over 200 punters watching. I think their secret is they make going to one of their things seem fun.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 02:34 PM

As one of the mainly missing club audience I would make a couple of points.

When I started attending clubs they started early evening, 7.30ish. This has now pushed back and back so there's less music in the evening and fewer chances for newbies and less variety. At the other end of the night more and more of the audience seem to be leaving early during the guest's last set leaving, in some cases, only half the number that started the evening. Doesn't make for a great atmosphere.

There is also (I think) more participation in making music than back in the seventies and eighties. People are attending sessions and if they're there then they're not in clubs.

There is an audience for folk music but it is finding venues other than clubs to hear it in and a new wave of performer is coming along who is meeting that need without playing the clubs.

Steve

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 02:27 PM

Ron, you should read the second of the definitions you cite more carefully.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 02:24 PM

I'm sorry Eric, I'm not getting at you. If you've got some positive suggestions, I'm genuinely interested. All your suggestions seem a little vague. Holding up WOMAD, which is once a year on a massive scale, is not much use as an example for a club that meets once a week in a room with maximum capacity 50; Cara Dillon and Show of Hands don't play that sort of venue these days. You say "don't choose a hall or back room of a pub". Where then?

"if you want an audience to come you've got to go and find them and give them a reason to be interested in what you offer." Advice on advertising that would bring in the young would be welcome.

Actually the asnwer to "where have the audiences gone" is "They've all grown old and don't get out much anymore". The real question is "How do we get a new audience in?" Answers gratefully received.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Banjiman
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 02:21 PM

Snail....if you want to be defensive, that's absolutely fine by me! I made my point that I didn't think generalisations were useful, there was a clarification which I fully accept and we moved on.

Stewart,

I would be interested to know what sort of figure you would consider to be a good audience? Some of us (me included) this side of the pond are busy congratulating ourselves on reasonable attendances.....but what we consider good, you might consider poor.

Thanks

Paul

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Stewart
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 02:03 PM

Ron, the arts council was started by a local graphic artist and her husband, and I am the third active member. The facility is a non-profit community club - originally a private club founded in the 1920s, then outside of the city limits. The facilities are completely paid for, and a few rentals and endowed funds completely sustain it with increasing reserves each year. Part of the problem is political - the old members, 2nd generation from the founders, view it as their own private club, but don't want to do anything but meet there once a month. They are all aging and have little energy to do anything. And the community has no focal point, just private homes with no retail stores/shop/cafe. But the club, as a non-profit, has a legal obligation to serve the community.

My music friends all say this is a great thing. "A gem of a hall" (seats 150 or more), they say "we need more music venues," "you're doing a great thing," etc. But we're also up against a local folklore society that has its own large constituency, but mostly brings in out-of-town singer-songwriters. They usually get a good audience, but it's not the kind of thing we want to do. It's not competition - we are just trying to do something different.

As for promotion, we do everything we can think of or is recommended. But to be successful we need to get the local community involved - where people don't have to drive across town to some place they're not familiar with. I think it's more of a wide-spread cultural/sociological thing that people are becoming more isolated, too busy with work, too many other activities, etc. Just a new era.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 01:52 PM

I'll let the UK members talk about their folk clubs and definitions of trad music.

Apologies for the drift. Here's the way it looks in Chorlton, Manchester, England, England, across the Atlantic sea.

One singaround, monthly, mostly trad, doing well (10-15 people, almost all performers).
One folk club running singers' nights, most weeks, mostly non-trad, also doing well (30-40 people, about half performers)
The same folk club with a guest act, occasional, mostly non-trad, not doing so well (20-30 people)
One tunes session, weekly, all trad, doing well (15-20 terrifyingly virtuosic people)
Several bars with PA, some with open mike nights, apparently doing well (but whether this has anything to do with the music (or indeed whether anyone listens to the music) is unclear)
An Irish Club, doing well, frequently puts on one of the local C+W bands (not trad)
Occasional folkie acts big enough to run to an actual gig, not doing terrifically well unless they're really big - there's "headlining at the folk club" and "headlining at the Lowry,/a>" and not much in between.

What that tells me is that people, round here at least, will come out to
a) perform themselves or support friends who perform
b) dance
c) drink

but not so much to

d) listen to live music

It's a weird situation, because from my perspective as an amateur performer both the folk club and the singaround represent a scene that's doing really well. (When I've worked on my whistle for another 30 years I might be able to sit in on the tunes session, and then I'll have the set.) But to a pro, semi-pro or would-be-pro performer I can see that the same landscape would look rather barren.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 01:48 PM

Banjiman

I can think of 2 that I have been to in the north of England.

Whereas Peace had said -

But let some kid in England use an electric instrument on a song and the Tradites--closely connected in thought to Ned Ludd--slam him/her. Let a person with feet in both worlds add ANYthing to a Trad song and it all of a sudden heralds the end of civilization as we know it.

which is a bit of a damning statement. It followed on from -

I also think the most devisive people on this planet to do with music live in England. You seem to consistently cut each other down. You do NOT support live music. You support YOUR live music. Fuckin' wake up.

I think I'm entitled to get a little bit defensive. He's cursing the whole country. The implication is that the"Tradites" are responsible for the lack of audiences.

Subject: RE: Where have the audiences gone?
From: GUEST,EricTheOrange
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 01:45 PM

TheSnail -- you said "Bring us ideas. Make suggestions. Contribute. Don't just whinge about how awful clubs are. I'm sorry, but we can't stop being old much as we'd like to. Tell us what you want. What would bring you in? Folk clubs aren't WOMAD or Warwick Folk, Larmer Tree and Cheltenham Music festivals nor do they pretend to be but they do have a different sort of value."


I'm sorry if I was not clear about this though I thought I'd provided a few suggestions in my posts. I also don't think I was whingeing -- the question was "where have the audiences gone" and I was trying to give one possible answer. YMMV

As for the festivals I mentioned I was using them as examples of how they have worked at their presentation and communications to engage with modern audiences -- the festivals I have attended seem to have no problem attracting interest from across age, gender and racial groups. At Womad Cara Dillon filled her venue, Show of Hands overflowed theirs. Obviously folk clubs and performances are something different and obviously they don't want to copy what those festivals do but that doesn't mean that there aren't good lessons to be learned and it doesn't mean that they cannot attract interest from the same sort of people.

If you are happy with the state of performances or folk clubs where you are then there's no problem, but if what you are doing at the moment isn't working then doing more of the same is unlikely to improve matters. Age in itself is not the problem but I think that if you are interested in a "living" tradition but are not attracting both genders across ages and backgrounds how long will it remain alive?