Origins: Ring around the Rosy / Rosey

Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 06:02 PM

The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes cites the earliest English language version as 1881. They note that 'would be origins finders' relate it to the Great Plague.

Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 06:01 PM

Greg's date of 17th Century is much more likely that the days of the Black Death.

Is there any trace of the rhyme before 1800? Here is where our English friends may come in with more information. The rhyme has also been related to smallpox epidemics, the ring around the rosy being application of make-up to cover up blemishes.
Somewhere in Google is a story with a tie-in to Shiva and Hindu mythology, but that one is too far-fetched to quote here.

Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 05:50 PM

The standars explanation is nice, but only a conjecture. But I believe it. Why not? Until someone comes up with a better theory.No historycan tell you the answer. Nobody made a note of what they meant when they wrote it.(Mind you, the bit of paper might just be lurking in that old box in your attic?).
By the by, the Great Plague of 1665 seems a lot more likely to methan the Black Death of the Middle Ages. I cant really see a rhyme lasting in that form as long as that. And the verse structure seems subjectively to me to have more 1660 than 1360 about it. (Having said that, "Summer is icumen in" sounds dead modern but is definitely medieval).
Agreed, we need Masato or Malcolm Douglas to chase up the earliest known date first, before getting carried away.

Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 05:48 PM

"Ring around a Rosy- a reference to rosary beads ??

A version from Lomax and Lomax, 1939 Southern States Collecting Trip, from Wiergate, Texas:

Ring around a rosey, pocket full o' posies,
Light bread, Sweet bread, Squat!
Guess who she told me, tralalalala,
Mister Red was her lover, tralalalala,
If you love him, hug him!
If you hate him, stomp!

(Sec. 13, Merryville, LA and vicinity)

Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: GUEST,Willa
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 05:20 PM

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/3041/rosie.html has a good item on the origin of the rhyme

Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 05:14 PM

Ashes were also thought to ward off the plague for a while... and so were carried around in the pockets...

At least that's what I read in one book on the Black Death

;-)

Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 05:14 PM

Just posted a verse to Historical Childrens Songs, from North Carolina Folklore. The tune for that one is the German "Hoch soll er Leben." Also Gomme, 1898 date for an American version. Nothing useful yet.
Birthday song (small children and young ladies are neuter in German).

"Hoch soll er (sie, es) leben,
Hoch soll er leben,

dreimal hoch!

Er lebe hoch,
Er lebe hoch,
Er lebe dreimal hoch!

Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: dorareever
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 05:08 PM

I guess it's about plague.Children songs are usually very gruesome so it really could be about that.

Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: beadie
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 05:06 PM

The story I heard was that it originated as a rhyme sung by children during the time of the Black Death.

"Ring around the Rosey" referred to the characteristic marks and redness of the skin eruptions that appeared on victims of the Bubonic Plague.

The "pocket full of posies" was linked to the practice of always carrying flowers on one's person (frequently close to the face) as a means to cover the stench of the dead and dying.

"Ashes, Ashes" related to the fact that dead victims were burned rather than buried.

"All fall down" was a rather fatalistic view of where it would all end . . . presumably with everyoine falling down dead.

Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: Jeanie
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 05:05 PM

The alternative version to the common English one has "Ring around the rosey" instead of "Ring a ring of roses" and "Ashes, ashes" instead of "atishoo, atishoo". I heard it sung like this by an (American) talking doll.

I'm sure there will be lots about the origin of this song on earlier threads. My understanding is that it is all about the Plague: The "ring of roses" is the rash; the "pocket full of posies" is the nosegays that people carried around with them to fend off the foul smell of people suffering from the plague, and "atishoo... we all fall down" - their dying. Good cheerful subject matter for a children's song (as is often the case !)

- jeanie

Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: GUEST,Willa
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 05:04 PM

And if that is the version you mean, it is said to refer to the plague "Atishoo atishoo We'll all fall down" being the symptoms and the result.The "pocket full of posies" would probably relate to the use of a pomander/nosegay of flowers, which was thought to be effective in warding off the germs.

Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 05:02 PM

I've seen lots of explanations that it is based on the Black Death/Plague, and quite a lot saying this is rubbish! A verified history would be nice ....

Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 04:57 PM

Can we have a text to start with?The common English child's rhyme is
Ring a ring a roses
A pocket full of posies
Atishoo atishoo
We'll all fall down

With a falling on the ground game to go with it.How does yours go?

Subject: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: GUEST,genie
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 04:51 PM

Asked in another thread's topic so here is a new one. I would like to know where Ring Around The Rosey came from?