BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 10:42 AM

I did not know that there are differenet kinds of dishonesty. Am I being intellectually dishonest when I say I am disgusted with the American system of politics as it stands right now? I am sick in the stomach. The majority of Americans do not have any respect for any body eles's beliefs unless it matches theirs. Seems to me that is also the cause if the problems in the middle east and that is where we are headed.

Vote for Kerry. He is not an asshole. Gore won the last election and Iraq is a toal loss. Now my beliefs are the same as yours. Does this make you happy?

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 09:00 AM

And U.S. voters are terrified of phantom "Radical Muslim Fundamentalists"?

They'd be well advised to pay more attention to the very real & imminent threats posed by Radical Christian Fundamentalists of the Gott Mit Uns
BuShite variety.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 06:08 AM

Lets cut to the chase. Never mind the debate, lets get on with the abuse.

Are you voting for the arrogant asshole, or the mentally defective crook?

what's it going to be?

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Nerd
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 01:00 AM

And by the way you're STILL distorting the truth:

"Several News organizations got together and financed a big study of the Ballots. They all agreed that Bush won."

First of all, everyone knows that Bush "won," whatever that means. It's his ass on the White House toilet, right? But did he get more votes? SHOULD he have won? That's the question these organizations were asking.

As I pointed out, only TWO news organizations got together and did one study that found that Bush got more votes, while another group of an undetermined number of news organizations, including the St. Petersburg Times, found that Bush got fewer votes.

But this doesn't matter to you. You'll happily claim that they both support your position, because you have been intellectually dishonest throughout this exchange.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Nerd
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 12:39 AM

Thank you for proving me right, Old Guy!

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 11:49 PM

Just in case some may have missed this thread, read all about how Bush et alia really do believe he is the Second Coming. To read the whole article, click on the NYxs link then enter mudcat50 for user name and mudcat for the password. The arrogance surpasses anything Kerry might even think about.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 11:36 PM

The only progress in Iraq was getting rid of Saddam, and that cost too much. I am not reckoning the cost in money. Since then Iraq has constantly deteriorated. Physically it's worse off, and Saddam has been replaced by a large number of fanatics, terrorists and idiots. And a lot of people are dead.

Alawi is not telling the truth; he's repeating the Bushie's party line.

And I still think that Bush is a more arrogant asshole, for reasons cited before, and also because that's what his body language says: the Banty Strut, the Smirk, the Cowboy Boots on a man that doesn't ride.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 09:10 PM

Sorry Nerd. Now I see what you mean about one study. Several News organizations got together and financed a big study of the Ballots. They all agreed that Bush won. So did Gore:"We are a nation of laws and the presidential election of 2000 is over" "Right now, our country faces a great challenge as we seek to successfully combat terrorism. I fully support President Bush's efforts to achieve that goal."

http://www.greenvilledemocrats.com/apflorida.html
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/florida.ballots/stories/main.html

And I STILL think Kerry is an arrogant asshole and that is what this thread is about.

I got pissed when I saw the great statesman and diplomat John Kerry on TV downing any progress we might have made in Iraq for his political and personal gain and arrogantly telling Alawi that he is not telling the truth and I am blowing off steam here. Anything positive might shatter his liberal elite charisma.

He has one thing going for him. He won't have to put on a costume for Halloween. He can pass as Herman Munster.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Nerd
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 08:13 PM

"How many studies came to this conclusion? How many came to the opposite conclusion?"

It was a unique study. Only one such study was done. As far as I know, only the one other study you cited came to the opposite conclusion, using a different methodology.

So maybe NOW you don't want to take the SP TIMES study's word for it? Okay...but you cited the study yourself, while concealing this part of its conclusion. If you are now disputing the study, then you were clearly being dishonest to cite it in the first place; either you trust it or you don't.

If you DO trust it, you must admit Gore would have won Florida if the ballots were counted reasonably.

If you DON'T trust it, then you have shown us that there is one study supporting your contention, and one not supporting it. That's hardly conclusive evidence.

Obviously, your answer will be "How do you know? And I STILL think Kerry is an arrogant asshole."

But by repeating yourself in such an unpleasant way, you're only convincing people that you are one yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Nerd
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 07:59 PM

Your little google game just proves you're being foolish, Old Guy. I know you're smarter than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 07:26 PM

Well, I looked a little farther, and found a columnist that says the White House denies that Bush said it. That may be true. But they would say that anyway, wouldn't they?

On the other hand, pro-Bush people say that he believes God wants him as president, which amounts to the same thing. If he thinks God is guiding him, he must think God guides his speech as wel.


Published on Wednesday, September 1, 2004 by the Free Press (Columbus, Ohio) President Bush told Texas evangelist James Robinson that "I feel like God wants me to run for President. I can't explain it, but I sense my country is going to need me. Something is going to happen . . . I know it won't be easy on me or my family, but God wants me to do it."
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0901-03.htm

Michael Gerson, Bush's chief speechwriter, tells colleagues that on September 20 2001, after Bush delivered his speech to the Congress declaring a war on terror, he called Gerson to thank him for writing it. "God wants you here," Gerson says he told the president. And he says that Bush replied: "God wants us here."

There's lots of quotes about these statements.

The Divine Right of GW Bush. Arrogance. "God wants me to do all this. If you're against me you're against God's will."

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 06:49 PM

' "Bush said God speaks through him."

I didn't know that. I am interested. When did he say that?

OMA '

Last July. Reported in the Lancaster New Era
"Bush quietly meets with Amish here; they offer their prayers
"By Jack Brubaker
"Lancaster New Era
"LANCASTER COUNTY, PA - President Bush met privately with a group of Old Order Amish during his visit to Lancaster County last Friday. He discussed their farms and their hats and his religion."

Howerver,

"The complete text of this article is no longer available online. If you wish to view the entire story please visit our archive or if you wish to order a reprint please visit our Customer Care Center. "

But it's quoted here:
http://www.mennoweekly.org/AUGUST/08-02-04/BUSH08-02.html

"'At the end of the session, Bush reportedly told the group, "I trust God speaks through me. Without that, I couldn't do my job.' "

It does say "reportedly," but I trust the Amish not to lie. There's a nice Whoopie Pie story there too.

heric's talking about a different incident.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 05:54 PM

Are we talking about votes or are we talking about people who wanted to vote, screwed up and then someone had to devine how they wanted to vote?

How many studies came to this conclusion? How many came to the opposite conclusion?

How about trying this: I searched gore won on Google.
Results 1 - 10 of about 1,180,000 for gore won.
I searched "bush won" Results 1 - 10 of about 4,560,000 for bush won.
I put it in quotation marks and I get:
Results 1 - 10 of about 48,000 for "gore won"
Results 1 - 10 of about 118,000 for "bush won"
It looks to me like more people think Bush won.

Obviously you believe Gore won. I don't.

Does it prove whether Kerry is an arrogant asshole or not?

What it does prove is that there is a lot of anger left over from that election to put the upcoming elections in question regardless of who wins and that is not good.

How long are we going to carry it forward? Look at the assholes in Serbia and Kosovo. They are still killing each other about shit that they claim or think happened 1000 years ago. People have to learn to get along but this partisan bullshit has to end or we will be in another Kosovo vs Serbia or Palestinian vs Jew conflict complete with bombs. The main cause of it is the Democrat vs Republican conflict.

In any event, I think Kerry is an arrogant asshole.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Nerd
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 05:13 PM

Old Guy,

it is not "what I wanted to hear." This is from one of the articles that YOU posted, claiming that Bush would have won:

"The unprecedented study of ballots that were cast but not counted offers Gore a frustrating point of consolation. More Florida voters clearly intended to vote for him than Bush. But their intentions were thwarted by imperfect voting machines, confusing ballots and fuzzy state law.

How do we know?

Nearly 3,690 ballots rejected as overvotes because of multiple marks revealed clear, unambiguous votes, according to the media analysis. But vague state law kept them from being counted -- and they favored Gore over Bush by a margin of more than 800.

Florida now has new election rules for hand-counting such ballots. Had the new rules been in place last year, Gore probably would have won the election."

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 04:43 PM

He probably didn't say that

But I wonder why junior has this "God and Country" crowd surrounding him in such stark contrast to his old man.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 04:28 PM

"Bush said God speaks through him."

I didn't know that. I am interested. When did he say that?

OMA

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 04:07 PM

To me Kerry has always seemed less arrogant than Bush..

Bush said God speaks through him. That's arrogant; the same arrogance the radical Moslems show.

When asked by a reporter Bush was unable to think of any mistakes he made. That's arrogant; only God could make no mistakes.

It's generally known that there are more terrorists in Iraq than there were before the invasion; there are a number of places in Iraq where we don't go now, etc. etc. -- as the Newsweek article said, "It's Worse Than You Think." -- yet he defends his strategy. That's arrogant and stupid.

He has said that what he likes about beng President is that he doesn't have to explain himself to anybody. That's arrogant; The President is a servant of the people and answerable to them.

There's more, of course.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 03:34 PM

"You cited several lawsuits in which "the Gore-Lieberman campaign was
the only plaintiff."

Gore-Lieberman and a dead guy were the plaintiffs. Then it was Gore-Lieberman and a guy that had already voted were the plaintiffs.

It reads the only plaintiff that appears in both suits. Meaning Gore-Lieberman and the dead guy appeared in the first suit and Gore-Lieberman and the guy that already voted appeared in the second suit.

I am not here to lead or mislead anybody. I am here to state my beliefs and I believe Kerry is an arrogant asshole but the discussion keeps coming back to what Bush did as if that proves that Kerry is not an arrogant asshole.

It is pretty pitiful when someone's campaign consists of 90% what the opponent did and 10% what he did. The reason is he has done nothing but dishonor his country, vote against things he claims we need now like body armor and not vote on 89 percent of the Senate votes so far this year.

Who do you believe told CBS about the forged documents?

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Alice
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 03:23 PM

Florida quietly admitted election fraud in the 2000 election, blocking mostly African American voters from voting. They settled a lawsuit with the NAACP. If you haven't heard about it, then it is because the media largely ignored both the lawsuit and the settlement.
Associated Press article here:
http://www.truthout.com/docs_02/04.28A.Election.Fraud.p.htm
Click here


Some facts about how the Florida 2000 election illegally blocked voters from voting:
http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=122&row=1
Click here
THE GREAT FLORIDA EX-CON GAME How the 'felon' voter-purge was itself felonious
Harper's Magazine
Friday, March 1, 2002        
by Greg Palast

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 03:03 PM

You believe what you think you heard and I will believe what I think I heard.

I think I heard news people saying that no matter how the ballots were recounted, even using the most stringent pro Gore standards, Bush got more votes in Florida. When I search on the net I find the same thing over and over. I think there was one non-news entity saying otherwise.

I guess if you search for Gore won you will find more evidence that Gore won. I tend to search for "florida ballot recount" and see if more sources say gore won than said bush won. Then I make a conclusion. As far as I can see, it is almost unanimous amongst the news sources involved that Bush won. Hell if Gore had keep his mouth shut, he may have won and there would not have been a problem. Then he would have had that 9/11 hot potato in his lap.

What I am saying is all this bickering is hurting the country and making it dang nigh impossible to have a conclusive election.

I would be happy with Kerry for pres if it would make all this democrat vs. republican bullshit go away. It ain't worth it. To have an effective government, people have to be behind it. Everybody was behind Bush on 9/11 but cry baby democrats have spun it the other way.

I like Joe Lieberman. I think he is a man of conviction he would make a good president. I also like McCain. But I think Kerry is an arrogant asshole. During the debate he put Bush down about not building a coalition. Then he put him down about the coalition he built to deal with N. Korea.

Let the arrogant asshole be president. He won't do a damned thing different from Bush except appease the crybaby Democrats and blame all of his shortcomings on Bush. At least all this partisan bickering might go away.


Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Nerd
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 02:23 PM

"if you want to keep claiming that Gore-Lieberman are the only plaintiffs in any of the lawsuits about voting rights"

Where did I claim this?

You cited several lawsuits in which "the Gore-Lieberman campaign was the only plaintiff." They're right in this thread and you can find them. I'm just pointing out that there are other, far more important, lawsuits, in which they are not the only plaintiff.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Amos
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 01:31 PM

Old Guy, you must be built upside down.

1. The legitimate count was in favor of Gore.
2. The snatching and bullyragging was done by the Bush machine, who denied states' rights (where a real recount was being ordered) and cajoled the Supremes into esentially bypassing the rights of the State of FLordia to order that recount, and instead awarded the Presidency to their chosen son.

Bush believes in aggressive falsification in order to acheive his goals, something he has demonstrated time and time again. He has done this to justify environmental abuse, manslaughter (or murder) and the ham-handed erosion of civil liberties.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 01:18 PM

"if you want to keep claiming that Gore-Lieberman are the only plaintiffs in any of the lawsuits about voting rights"
Where did I claim this?

If you want to claim Gore won the presidential election and or that Bush stold it just go ahead and claim it. I am just stating why I believe Bush won fair and square even though Gore tried to snatch it using such comptible resources as telemarketers. In the process he created a lot if hatred amongst the voters which will affect future elections.

If you disagree with me so be it.

I am also stating that Gore/Liberman pulled legal tricks such as the one in St Louis. They claimed that a dead guy was unable to vote and then changed him to a guy that had already voted. This was documented by the state of Misouri. That is all the proof I need. If you think I am stupid so what? If you think the state is wrong or something, Ok, say it.

I am not trying to mislead anybody I am just saying what I beleive and why I believe it. If you want to call me names, go ahead.

I saw the Washington Post, New York Times, Associated Press, Wall Street Journal, Los Angeles Times, Palm Beach Post, St. Petersburg Times, and CNN mentioned in the ballot study which concluded Bush won.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Nerd
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 12:33 PM

The difference GUEST, is that I didn't say "several studies show that this happened." You did. YOU are the one who set the terms under which your information will be judged, and you are incompetent at doing so.

Secondly, the ACLU site featuring the NAACP suit IS independent confirmation, no? If you had bothered to look at it, you would have seen that it contains independant testimony from many plaintiffs involving voting irregularities in which they mysteriously disappeared from the voting lists. These are NOT the same people dealt with by Palast.

Here are some more articles:

http://dir.salon.com/politics/feature/2001/08/04/florida/index.html

http://www.commondreams.org/news2004/0510-10.htm

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/01/12/politics/main263685.shtml

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Amos
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 09:12 AM

Nerd:

Thanks for getting it said.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 06:33 AM

Nerd:

"In fact, all the links you provide, except one, point to THE SAME STUDY. It was conducted by Miami Herald and USA Today, and they throw Knight Ridder in to make it look more authoritative although since the Miami Herald is part of Knight-Ridder this is meaningless. So we have a single study done by two organizations together. When you say several groups did studies and ALL OF THEM conclude something, you strongly suggest independent confirmation from more than two sources. But alas, there was none."

And your entire post was from one article in Harpers

"here is an article from Harper's which reveals what they did:"

Where is your independent confirmation?

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Nerd
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 03:09 AM

Ahhh, Old Guy. Here is where you are a misleader like your hero Bush. You say:

"several news organizations went over and over the Florida ballots and all of then concluded that Bush got more votes than Gore."

In fact, all the links you provide, except one, point to THE SAME STUDY. It was conducted by Miami Herald and USA Today, and they throw Knight Ridder in to make it look more authoritative although since the Miami Herald is part of Knight-Ridder this is meaningless. So we have a single study done by two organizations together. When you say several groups did studies and ALL OF THEM conclude something, you strongly suggest independent confirmation from more than two sources. But alas, there was none.

The other study (sptimes) found that although there might have been more ballots for Bush, this was only because Floridians botched their votes due to the badly-designed ballot. They clearly found that more Floridians intended to vote for Gore. So Gore won Florida, Old Guy!

As for documenting Katherine Harris's crimes, here is an article from Harper's which reveals what they did: They hired a company called DBT, which started with a list of everyone living in the United States who has ever been convicted of a felony. Then, if they found anyone on the Florida voter rolls who had a similar (not necessary to be identical) name, age, race and gender, they eliminated that person. Even if the ex-felon whose name was similar had been pardoned. Even if that ex-felon actually had the right to vote, which is true of most ex-felons (thirty-five states restore their voting rights when they serve their time, and it is unconstitutional for Florida to take the right to vote away from a person whose felony conviction was from another state and who had voting rights restored by that state). Even if there was no evidence that the felon had ever been to Florida, let alone was the same person listed on the Florida voter rolls, the Florida voter was purged. So if there was a convicted felon named "John Smith" anywhere in America, then any John Smith in Florida of a similar age and race would be purged.

There article is here

http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=122&row=1

I'll give you a nice sample. Note the hilarious parts in bold!

Two of these "scrub lists," as officials called them, were distributed to counties in the months before the election with orders to remove the voters named. Together the lists comprised nearly 1 percent of Florida's electorate and nearly 3 percent of its African-American voters. Most of the voters (such as "David Butler," (1); a name that appears 77 times in Florida phone books) were selected because their name, gender, birthdate and race matched - or nearly matched - one of the tens of millions of ex-felons in the United States. Neither DBT nor the state conducted any further research to verify the matches. DBT, which frequently is hired by the F.B.I. to conduct manhunts, originally proposed using address histories and financial records to confirm the names, but the state declined the cross-checks. In Harris's elections office files, next to DBT's sophisticated verification plan, there is a hand-written note: "DON'T NEED."

Thomas Alvin Cooper (2), twenty-eight, was flagged because of a crime for which he will be convicted in the year 2007. According to Florida's elections division, this intrepid time-traveler will cover his tracks by moving to Ohio, adding a middle name, and changing his race. Harper's found 325 names on the list with conviction dates in the future, a fact that did not escape Department of Elections workers, who, in June 2000 emails headed, "Future Conviction Dates," termed the discovery, "bad news." Rather than release this whacky data to skeptical counties, Janet Mudrow, state liaison to DBT, suggested that "blanks would be preferable in these cases." (Harper's counted 4,917 blank conviction dates.) The one county that checked each of the 694 names on its local list could verify only 34 as actual felony convicts. Some counties defied Harris' directives; Madison County's elections supervisor Linda Howell refused the purge list after she found her own name on it.

Rev. Willie Dixon (3), seventy, was guilty of a crime in his youth; but one phone call would have told the state that it had already pardoned Dixon and restored his right to vote. On behalf of Dixon and other excluded voters, the NAACP in January 2001 sued Florida and Harris, after finding that African-Americans--who account for 13 percent of Florida's electorate and 46 percent of U.S. felony convictions--were four times as likely as whites to be incorrectly singled out under the state's methodology. After the election, Harris and her elections chief Clay Roberts, testified under oath that verifying the lists was solely the work of county supervisors. But the Florida-DBT contract (marked "Secret" and "Confidential") holds DBT responsible for "manual verification using telephone calls." in fact, with the state's blessing, DBT did not call a single felon. When I asked [Harris's Aide] Roberts about the contract during an interview for BBC television, Roberts ripped off his microphone, ran into his office, locked the door, and called in state troopers to remove us.

Johnny Jackson Jr. (4), thirty-two, has never been to Texas, and his mother swears he never had the middle name "Fitzgerald." Neither is there evidence that John Fitzgerald Jackson, felon of Texas, has ever left the Lone Star State. But even if they were the same man, removing him from Florida's voter rolls is an unconstitutional act. Texas is among the thirty five states where ex-felons are permitted to vote, and the "full faith and credit" clause of the U.S. Constitution forbids states to revoke any civil rights that a citizen has been granted by another state; in fact, the Florida Supreme Court had twice ordered the state not to do so, just nine months before the voter purge. Nevertheless, at least 2,873 voters were wrongly removed, a purge authorized by a September 18, 2000 letter to counties from Governor Bush's clemency office. On February 23, 2001, days after the U.S. Commission of Civil Rights began investigating the matters, Bush's office issued a new letter allowing these persons to vote; no copies of the earlier letter could be found in the clemency office or on its computers.

After this article, Harris wrote an angry letter to Harpers. But as the original author Palast pointed out in his response to the letter:

"Katherine Harris does not deny the central allegations of my Annotation: that her office ordered 57,700 Florida citizens be removed from the voter rolls, despite the knowledge that many, if not most, of these citizens were innocent of all crimes."

He also points out this doozy:

" The Annotation's most damning accusation, from the view of civil rights lawyers, is that the state purged ex-convicts who had their right to vote restored by other states. Rather than deny the charge, Harris claims that she was required to do so by a letter from Governor Jeb Bush's Office of Executive Clemency. Oops! Harris has just blown Jeb's alibi. His office, as I mention in the Annotation, assured me that no such letter exists. Indeed, Bush's office produced a letter dated February 23, 2001, with a position opposite Harris's."

So take your pick, Old Guy. Either Katherine Harris (now a congresswoman, then State Supervisor of elections, Florida secretary of state, and Bush campaign chair) lied and cheated and broke the law to get people off the voter rolls because Jeb Bush told her to, or because it was her own idea. Either she or Jeb is lying about it.

By the way, if you want to keep claiming that Gore-Lieberman are the only plaintiffs in any of the lawsuits about voting rights, you've missed the most important one, outlined on the ACLU website:

http://www.aclufl.org/legislature_courts/legal_department/briefs_complaints/naacp_v__harris.cfm

It's a huge class-action suit spearheaded by the NAACP.

Finally, if you didn't see any thuggish people around harrassing black people when you voted it's probably because you don't vote where there a lot of black people. I'm just guessing here. For over 10 years I lived in a black neighborhood of Philadelphia and I saw them during all three presidential elections I voted in there. Now I live in a mostly white neighborhood, and funnily enough they don't bother to come here. But I'm going out to another neighborhood as a volunteer to protect the rights of minorities to vote!

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 01:03 AM

"This is ludicrous. Bush had his campaign director Kathryn Harris, back when she was the overseer of elections in Florida, scrub names of people who were still eligible to vote from the rolls. Most of them were black (big surprise!) They also routinely hire thuggish-looking people to "discourage" (intimidate) black people and prevent them from going into the polls. I am actually acting as a poll-watcher this election, to welcome minority voters who show up and are being accosted by these Republican-hired thugs."

Where is the source for this? Was it impeccable? Did you check the Demographics in Florida to determine the percentage of fellons that are black? Do overseers of elections in other states remove fellons from the voter roles or only the ones in Florida? Do they only remove the black ones?

We need more than generalizations.

Here is a link to a long story about fake votes in St Louis: http://www.sos.mo.gov/elections/pubs/reformmandate/reportpage4.asp
It is from the Office of the Secretary of State, Missouri - Matt Blunt. Note the part where the lawsuit for the plaintifs Gore-Lieberman, was filed because Robert D. Odom, a deadman, was not allowed to vote. After it was discovered he was dead the plaintifs said they made a minor mistake. They meant to say Robert M. Odom. It was later revealed that Robert M. Odom was not allowed to vote. Then it was found that he had already voted and did not have any trouble voting.

Here are some links about the news organizsation's recounts of Florida ballots:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2001-04-03-floridamain.htm
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/recountindex.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1190222.stm
http://www.sptimes.com/News/111201/Lostvotes/Recount__Bush.shtml

I didn't see any thuggish around when people when I voted.

Paul Galanti is one of the veterans who recalls Kerry's voice being played to the POWs: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40114


Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Allawi
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 09:10 PM

I knew George Bush. George Bush was a friend of mine while I was working for the CIA.
George W Bush is no George Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 09:04 PM

....and if you are gonna cut & paste from the internet, cut & paste the address of the SOURCE, too! and keep them decently short...

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 03:20 PM

...but I have heard it from enough different sources to believe it is true... You are welcome to call me any name you want but this is what I believe.

Tell a lie often enough & it becomes the truth? Then let me be the first to say you really ARE an idiot.

By the way: The Americans *DID* devastate Vietnam.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Nerd
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 10:21 AM

" The point is that Gore fired the first shot which indicates to me that Bush was on the defensive, Not on the offensive as the sore losers claim..."

This is ludicrous. Bush had his campaign director Kathryn Harris, back when she was the overseer of elections in Florida, scrub names of people who were still eligible to vote from the rolls. Most of them were black (big surprise!) They also routinely hire thuggish-looking people to "discourage" (intimidate) black people and prevent them from going into the polls. I am actually acting as a poll-watcher this election, to welcome minority voters who show up and are being accosted by these Republican-hired thugs.

Bush had been firing shots, as you put it, for months, and he STILL probably lost Florida.

As to your claim that "several news organizations went over and over the Florida ballots and all of then concluded that Bush got more votes than Gore."

Which ones?

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Amos
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 08:48 AM

Old Guy:

I have never found out whether the torture stories were true or were not. But the soldiers in Viet COng camps were tortured in any case. Using Kerry's voice clips, if they actually did, was not an act of treason on Kerry's part. Speaking in a free nation, Kerry stood up and said the war in Vietnam was wrongful.

Robert McNamara said the same thing but it took him twenty more years to realize it.

Do you think, then, that it was a just war?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 02:15 AM

I'll give you an impeccable source or two. Read "The Tao of Pooh". Follow it up with "The Teh of Piglet". Then try "Power versus Force". Then "The Holographic Universe" and "The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight". And read "The Prophet", by Kahlil Gibran.

None of them will tell you much about either Kerry or Bush, but they WILL tell you lots of other good stuff that is far better to read about in every way. :-)

Yes, the electoral college should most certainly be done away with! It's extremely anti-democratic in both function and (in my opinion) intention.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 12:37 AM

Mr Nerd:

You still haven't given me a list of impeccable sources to research.

I saw the woman on the cable news channel live so unless the cable news channel hired an actor I would assume it was for real. I searched around and found her name: Gertrude Bornstein.

The point is that Gore fired the first shot which indicates to me that Bush was on the defensive, Not on the offensive as the sore losers claim.

Regardless of who struck john, several news organizations went over and over the Florida ballots and all of then concluded that Bush got more votes than Gore.

Now the only remaining legitimate beef would be that the electoral college system is unfair. It is the law and if it is unfair it can be changed. I haven't heard anything about anyone proposing a change except that the state of Colorado was going to split it's electoral votes which will still leave an inequity unless they have an electoral vote for every voter.

I think the electoral college is arcane. It was designed for the days when it might take someone weeks to get to a voting place. I think it should be done away with along with an lot of other things that are pushing us toward anarchy.

Now I hear all this bellyaching about how the new voting systems (insisted on by the sore losers) are not accurate. I agree. We should have stuck with the old ones and just run it correctly. This seems to be a set up for a big battle over the upcoming election complete with His Honor, Mike Moore making a subversive movie out of it for his own personal gain.

This might not be from an impeccable source but I have heard it from enough different sources to believe it is true:
In POW camps in Vietnam, our soldiers were being tormented with audio clips of an unknown soldier talking about how Americans devastated Vietnam in the fashion of Gengis Khan, pronounced Gin-giss Kan. Now, After hearing his words in the news, POWs are coming forward and realizing that it was Kerry's voice.

The same thing is happening right now in Iraq.

If cutting and pasting something from the net to a bulletin board is plagiarism then I am guilty as charged but I am not claiming that I wrote them.

You are welcome to call me any name you want but this is what I believe.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 08:07 PM

George Bush is, in fact, an accomplished mendacious braggart and madman, who imagines himself Chosen by God, among other delusions.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Nerd
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 05:56 PM

LarryK:

1. I have only had one position on Iraq

A recent study has shown that Kerry's position on Iraq has in fact been consistent all along. This position was the following: The president should have had the authorization to use force, so that he could use it as leverage to get other countries on our side and continue the weapons inspections. His vote for authorization was never a "vote for the war." It was a vote to give Bush leverage, which Bush claimed he would use in a certain way, and then didn't. Kerry's vote on the 87 billion dollars was also consistent. He voted for a version of the bill that took the money out of the tax cuts for people making more than $300,000 a year. The Republicans quashed that version of the bill in favor of one that just added to the deficit. Kerry voted against that. These are not contradictory positions. The Republicans have simply been twisting his words by claiming that his vote for authorization was a "vote for the war" and that his later criticism of the war contradicted that vote.

2. 90% of the casulties in Iraq were USA (if we don't count the 750 Iraq soldiers killed fighting side by side with us)

Kerry was obviously referring here to Bush's claims to have put together a viable "coalition of the willing." Iraq does not count as a member of this "coalition," since it had no choice but to join. Of the members of this so-called coalition, 90% of the casualties have indeed been American. What this means is that Bush invaded Iraq essentially on his own, with very little support from other countries, a fact that the Bush administration has medaciously denied over and over.

3. The USA is spending 200 billion on Iraq which could be used for healthcare (budget has 120 billion for Iraq and 80 billion for Afganastan- has not been spent yet)

Uh, so what? I do my department's budgets at work. If I say "we're spending 100,000 on artists' fees," this means in the current fiscal year, and depending on when we are in the year, most of that money may not be spent yet. This fiscal year just began in July, so most of my budget right now is not spent, but i would still express it by saying "we're spending...." This is simply the convention when talking about budgets. If I speak about last year, I say "we spent 100, 000 last year."

As for the precise numbers, the budget does not tell the whole story. Obviously, we spent much more on Iraq than budgeted in the past few years. Kerry may be working with estimates of actual spending--remember, he is a Senator and has information you don't. More likely, he just made a mistake and combined the figures from Afghanistan and Iraq, hardly a damning lie!

4. The "I voted for line before I voted against it" was said late at night when I was tired- on katie couric yesterday (it was actually said at a luncheon between noon and 1)
When did Kerry make this claim about it being late at night? What evidence do you have of the time at which it was actually said? Can you find any links to substantiate these claims?

5.   I got this tan windsurfing.   (ha ha ha- it is his new carrot diet or a delayed reaction to agent orange when he was in vietnam)

I presume this is just a joke. Kerry is, in fact, an accomplished windsurfer and skier.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 05:49 PM

you'd think that being in the paper twice would make Parlock think....but all it did was make him think that "each try will get our side more votes than it loses"...

and we ALL know that anything goes when God is on your side...

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Nerd
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 05:32 PM

Ha! I KNEW that Phil Parlock thread would come in handy. Sorry, LarryK, we didn't forget about that guy, he was just another lying liar!

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 05:03 PM

None of those seem particularly mendacious to me, Larry -- they could be off the mark one way or another -- but without the context in which they were offered, I can't assess how true they are. However there are a lot of dead bodies in Iraq today who got that way because of assertions about WMD, about nuclear capabilities or the threat thereof, about uranium from Nigeria, about delivery systems capable of reaching the United States, about AL Queda's operational ties to Saddam -- falsehood after falsehood after falsehood. Substantive, real, operationally significant falsehoods that cost human lives.

Give me a f'ing break.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 05:02 PM

LarryK:
That scene with the little girl's sign appears to have been staged.

Check ou tthis thread: thread.cfm?threadid=73575&messages=2

And then tell us about what happened to the Gold Star mother who wore an anti-Bush T-shirt to a Laura Bush speech... her arrest was definitly not staged.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 03:53 PM

Amos- Wear a Kerry t-shirt to a republican rally- You must have forgotten about the 5 year old girl and her dad who had the Bush sign torn down and were physically abused at the Kerry rally in Pittsburgh.    The picture of her was photographed by an AP reporter.

Lets stay with the current Kerry Lies (past two weeks)
1. I have only had one position on Iraq   (in the past minute)
2. 90% of the casulties in Iraq were USA (if we don't count the 750 Iraq soldiers killed fighting side by side with us)
3. The USA is spending 200 billion on Iraq which could be used for healthcare (budget has 120 billion for Iraq and 80 billion for Afganastan- has not been spent yet)
4. The "I voted for line before I voted against it" was said late at night when I was tired- on katie couric yesterday (it was actually said at a luncheon between noon and 1)
5.   I got this tan windsurfing.   (ha ha ha- it is his new carrot diet or a delayed reaction to agent orange when he was in vietnam)

Those pop into my head from the past week.   If I spend more than 30 seconds on it, I can come up with 30 more.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 01:32 PM

Old Guy:

Free speech of the sort that criticizes an incompetent in office at worst will habve the effect of convincing the terrorists, whoever they are, that not ALL AMericans are as dumb as the President, and to proceed carefully with others.

If we are to defeat terrorists, why the FUCK did we head off to invade a country which was not being terrorist, at least not externally? Isn't that a confusion of goals? Sure looks like a misassessment to me.

As for contention about the past election causing contention in this one, that is why we HAVE elections -- to work through contentious situations and find an allegedly democratic path to the future. Elections have to be contentious by their nature, or they are mockeries. You want a mockery? You want to, what, BURY the polarization that has made this nation more divided than any time since Lincoln? Just suppress the voices of dissent? Screw that. Dissent is the FIRST sign of a healthy and free people at work, when it is tolerated under the law.   When it is suppressed by political force, it is the first sign of fascism. WHich path do you prefer? If you think this is not a problem in this country, try wearing a Kerry t-shirt to the next Republican rally you go to. You may stand at risk of being arrested for your dissent.

Just a few thoughts on the matter.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Nerd
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 12:50 PM

Here it is, folks, your moment of Zen.

Od Guy: "With freedom comes a responsibility to use that freedom responsibility."

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 12:41 PM

A:

Are there inappropriate uses of free speech? Has there ever been an instance where free speech has caused someone to die unnecessarily?

With freedom comes a responsibility to use that freedom responsibility.

Why don't you protest against the premeditated destruction of human life perpetrated by terrorists? That is the reason to go declare war on them. Whatever the causes were for them to want to kill us can't be undone so If freedom is to survive we must defeat them in the only way they understand defeat.

The bitching about the last election is causing contention in this election. It keeps being brought up by Democrats who won't let it rest. There are current campaign ads that state Bush stoled the last election.

This is not a lecture but just my thoughts.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Nerd
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 12:17 PM

Old Guy,

First of all, these people are not telemarketers, because they are not engaged in marketing. They are campaign callers, and they are an important tool for BOTH parties and more or less all political campaigns today. I'm not denying that Gore had these calls made, I just don't think it's relevant.

The Bush campaign had many of these callers, some of whom savaged John McCain during the primaries.

I'm also never sure what foolish allegations you're trying to make, Old Guy. For example, what about:

"Within minutes of the filing for a problem presumably just discovered that day, pre-recorded phone calls from Jesse Jackson poured into St. Louis telling people they could vote late."

So you're saying, what? They were planning it all along and had Jackson record a message two weeks in advance because recording technology takes so long these days? How long do you think it takes to record a voicemail message, Old Guy? (Just how old ARE you anyway?) If you look at the companies that do this, such as

http://www.notifyquick.com/get-out-the-vote.htm

you'll find that they have 24/7 system readiness. All Jackson had to do was pick up his cell phone wherever he was, record a voicemail message, forward it to the campaign, and it was on the wires. If it was a thirty second message, it would take about 5 minutes.

Finally, you haven't addressed the actual issue: WERE the voters voting for wrong person by mistake? If so, what difference does it make who designed the ballot? What difference does it make if there were telemarketers or not? Isn't it better to have an election in which people vote for the person they intend to vote for?

The only possible rationale for preventing this from being investigated is...you want Bush to win, whether or not that reflects the desires of the voters. Fine, we can all tell that is your position. But don't blame us for not being convinced.

Also, your sources are now one individual claim on "a cable news channel" and "the editorial." Well, NOW we know it must be true.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 12:15 PM

Get the money out of politics and we won't be having these pissing contests that appears as a weakness to other nations and enemies.

Exactly.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:41 AM

All of this bellyaching about the war convinces the terrorists that America can be defeated. It is causing American casualties.


That is pure-dee horse shit, Old Guy. Free speech does not cause casualties.

My "bellyaching" is aprotest against premeditated destruction of human life with large blunt instruments. In my town this the definition of murder. You may not see it that way, because politics have gotten involved.

I fail to see why you complain that I havebeen picking past elections apart -- I'm the one that said it is old news.

INeptitude and arrogance of the kind that Bush has inflicted on this country should be rewarded, perhaps by a trial for war crimes, but at the very least by a dramatic loss at the polls.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:37 AM

Amos: How did America come to be?

All of this bellyaching about the war convinces the terrorists that America can be defeated. It is causing American casualties.

So just keep jawing away about how terrible it is, find a scapegoat, and it will come to pass that the American people did not have the resolve to defeat terrorism and promote Democracy.

Also keep picking past elections apart and no one will be satisfied with this election. There will always be dissatisfaction with the last election that will cause dissatisfaction with this election that will fan the flames of anarchy.

I think the root of the discontent is the battle between the Democrats and the Republicans for power. Some things Bush does are bad and some things are good. Likewise for Clinton but due to a shitty all or nothing power struggle we have to take all the bad stuff with the good.

A politician has a hard time being elected with out a party to support him. Then he owes that party and must vote with that party. Bullshit.

There needs to be a way that campaining is funded equally with public money only. Air time and printed media must donate equally to all candidates. News organizations and Broadcast media are looking for things to present to people. Let it be the candidates.

Get the money out of politics and we won't be having these pissing contests that appears as a weakness to other nations and enemies.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 09:04 AM

I would think telemarketers are an important tool for both of those miserable parties.