Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-Oct11)

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 03:30 PM

The contract is with HarperCollins for US$4 million (you convert to European currencies).
Release expected early 2013

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Paul Burke
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 03:13 PM

£2.50? What a ripoff.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 08:16 AM

Which shelf will the book be on ........... fiction?

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 06:18 AM

Knox just signed a £2.5 book deal. Probably called "Being American helps when the charge is murder"

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 09:13 PM

And now media are filling space and airtime with a manslaughter trial against some doctor who is alleged to have killed a pop singer.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 07:28 PM

"As for the rain forests, public opinion might really be galvanized if pretty girls were being put in jeopardy by the clearing operations."


They are..........
Sheyla Juruna speaking about Belo Monte

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 07:27 PM

Here's a link to a page reproducing the prefabricated story - the Daily Mail websites have of course deleted it in embarrassment on their own sites.

To be fair, some other British papers' sites got it wrong too, and flashed up the wrong verdict. But they didn't write up colourful eyewitness reports of something that never happened, complete with made-up quotes.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 06:57 PM

"For those who are feeling betrayed by the verdict, here are extracts from the Daily Mail's version, written in advance and initially published on their website when they mistakenly though the verdict had gone the other way. Embellished with made up details and quotes - that's the Daily Mail for you..."

Kevin, Have you a link for this please.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 06:20 PM

McGrath, I know papers write obituaries way ahead of time, but this is ridiculous!

Of course, there's nothing in there that's improbable. If the appeal had been denied, a few actual details could have been tossed in on the spot, a minor revision here and there. Think of the time the writer would have saved.

And presumably the acquittal version had also been written long ago,and appropriate modifications were made.

The more I think about it, the more sense it makes. So I'm going to stop thinking about it immediately.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 06:10 PM

I think you could be right there. :)

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: BTNG
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 05:47 PM

" I very much doubt that the Knox family would have paid for it when they clearly would have struggled to do so"

perhaps someone(s) who stands to gain exclusive rights to interviews etc. perhaps

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 05:35 PM

For those who are feeling betrayed by the verdict, here are extracts from the Daily Mail's version, written in advance and initially published on their website when they mistakenly though the verdict had gone the other way. Embellished with made up details and quotes - that's the Daily Mail for you...

    "As Knox realised the enormity of what judge Hellman was saying she sank into her chair sobbing uncontrollably while her family and friends hugged each other in tears.

    A few feet away Meredith's mother Arline, her sister Stephanie and brother Lyle, who had flown in especially for the verdict remained expressionless, staring straight ahead, glancing over just once at the distraught Knox family.

    Prosecutors were delighted with the verdict and said that 'justice has been done' although they said on a 'human factor it was sad two young people would be spending years in jail'".

    "Following the verdict Knox and [Raphael] Sollecito were taken out of court escorted by prison guards and into a waiting van which took her back to her cell at Capanne jail near Perugia and him to Terni jail, 60 miles away.

    Both will be put on a suicide watch for the next few days as psychological assessments are made on each of them but this is usual practice for long term prisoners."

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 05:12 PM

No significant effect on the trial is what I mean. Why would the jury members - technically "lay judges", sitting along with professional judges - have taken any particular notice of that kind of stuff, when they could see the defendants in court every day?

"The six jurors – Angeletti and five women – were selected using more demanding educational criteria than those at Knox's and Sollecito's first trial. The lay judges for the appeal had to have spent 13 years at school and obtained a high school diploma. Angeletti said he had heard appeals in four other murder trials." (from here).

Why would the parents do all they could to get their daughter's side of things presented as favourably as they could? Because they were her parents, and they believed she was innocent, I imagine. Wouldn't anyone do that in that situation? That doesn't mean they were spending the money too sensibly.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 04:51 PM

PR had a massive effect. It was partly because of PR that we heard so much about one person and how innocent that person was and not a lot about everyone else. If it wasn't going to be effective I very much doubt that the Knox family would have paid for it when they clearly would have struggled to do so.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 04:38 PM

I rather doubt if PR would have had any significant effect, apart perhaps from encouraging the mobbing, which I imagine wouldn't have been the intention.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: BTNG
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 03:04 PM

pushed off the front pages by the death of Steve Jobs, though as is stated, the stories will probably hang on for a bit in the UK

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 02:58 PM

The English tabloid and yellow sheet papers may keep the story alive overseas for a while, but it is yesterday's flavor in the U.S. and Canada.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 02:39 PM

Exactly, this whole thing hasn't been about him or Meredith Kercher or her family ~ it has all been about Amanda Knox and we probably have the Seattle public relations specialist, David Marriot, who was hired by Amanda Knox's family to thank for some of that. It isn't going to fade away; there is no escape from it.


There was a line in an article the other week that said '..the Knox family are not wealthy..' and immediately went on to say the y had so far spent over a million on PR to drive the case toward it's desired conclusion.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 02:35 PM

Old news already. Now that she is safe back in Seattle, coverage is absent.

Nothing in NY Times or Washington Post online, and CNN has dropped it- Steve Jobs, Palin, Obama, Boehner and political posing, China currency sanctions, banks and the Wall Street protestors, and brief note of the European debt problem and Ghadaffi are the main headlines.
Tidbits such as ESPN boots Hank Williams Jr., mountain lions snoozing on a front porch, etc., etc.

Always lots of books which few ever read.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: BTNG
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 02:33 PM

Lead by example Wesley S

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 02:19 PM

Anyone who keeps up with this story WANTS to keep up with it. I repeat - unless your TV doesn't have a remote all you'll have to do is hit the mute button or change the channel. And you don't even have to reopen this thread.

It's simple.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 02:17 PM

I can't see how Raffaele Sollecito could really have a lower profile than he has had. You'd hardly know he'd been in the case at all

Exactly, this whole thing hasn't been about him or Meredith Kercher or her family ~ it has all been about Amanda Knox and we probably have the Seattle public relations specialist, David Marriot, who was hired by Amanda Knox's family to thank for some of that. It isn't going to fade away; there is no escape from it.

Also, in the back of my mind I seem to remember a report somewhere which stated that Amanda Knox at one point said that Raffaele had done it. I can't find it so I could have got that wrong. I wonder how much of what she says in interviews and the book she is planning to write will be the truth.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 02:17 PM

The media love such stories. Another controversial case is that of Madeleine McCann. Her parents were investigated by Portuguese authorities looking into their daughter's disappearance.


Britain's ambassador to Portugal, Alexander Wykeham Ellis, made headlines with remarks he reportedly made to his American counterpart in Washington, US Ambassador Al Hoffman regarding Portuguese police naming Gerry and Kate McCann as "arguidos", or formal suspects, in the case.

The McCann case remains unsolved. Gerry and Kate McCann admitted leaving their children alone in the apartment while they went out to a party with friends.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: BTNG
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 02:04 PM

errr...no thanks

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 01:55 PM

Amazon.com lists no fewer than ten books *already published* for your reading enjoyment.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: BTNG
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 01:51 PM

I was indeed thinking of North America, Canada, the U.S. and Mexico. Short of living in a log cabin somewhere high in the Rocky Mountains, with no television, no nothing there'd be no way of avoiding exposure to this

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 01:36 PM

you'd still not be able to avoid it

I think I will. I suppose it might be harder in the USA.
...........................

I can't see how Raffaele Sollecito could really have a lower profile than he has had. You'd hardly know he'd been in the case at all - and ironically there doesn't really seem to have been any evidence against him, once the dodgy "forensics" has been totally discredited.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: BTNG
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 12:48 PM

"When Amanda Knox is rammed down your throat you'll always be able to change the channel, leave the room - or not buy the books or magazines she'll be featured in."



and you'd still not be able to avoid it, not the way the media works these days so eanjay's point is legitimate

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 12:39 PM

When Amanda Knox is rammed down your throat you'll always be able to change the channel, leave the room - or not buy the books or magazines she'll be featured in.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 10:59 AM

Louise Woodward has not been allowed to profit from her experiences and as a result we hear very little about her. This is different and I think we will have Amanda Knox rammed down our throats for years to come. Raffaele Sollecito will probably continue to keep a low profile and he may well fade from our memories.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 10:43 AM

It'll drag on a bit, and a few more headlines, but before too long the caravan will have moved on.   

And a few years on there'll be some vaguely similar case and someone will be writing something akin to what Dzabo wrote a few posts back, but it will be - "This all reminds me of that American student (can't remember her name) who was accused of murdering her flatmate in Italy."

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: BTNG
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 10:25 AM

Case closed...I don't think so, this a case that's not going away in hurry, there are still issues to be dealt, and, of course, there is money to be made, from book and film deals, I'm sure there are a number of those in the works

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 09:44 AM

Case closed.

Not really! The judge has to give his written report giving reasons for the acquittals in 90 days so I think that what he has to say is very important. The prosecution wants to appeal against the acquittals. Rudy Guede wants a re-trial. Presumably the police are still working on the case.

......... and YES the Amazon rainforest is more important and Meredith Kercher's family have been hugely overlooked by the media and it looks as if they will continue to be hugely overlooked by them. This is particularly disappointing when it is being done by the British media.

In the meantime it isn't going to go away and Max Clifford has things to say. :)

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 09:43 AM

I'm not a legal expert, but I'd think that the difference between "not guilty" and "not enough evidence to convict" is mostly semantic.

U.S. juries are not supposed to convict if there is "reasonable doubt." That, of course, is a subjective standard, but the idea is that if anyone on the jury seriously doubts the defendant's guilt there will be a hung jury. That means either a new trial or, if the prosecution reconsiders (as sometimes happens), it means the defendant's release.

"Insufficient evidence to convict," I suppose, could be the equivalent of a hung jury. Both can encourage lingering suspicion regardless of how many jurors had what they considered "reasonable doubt." In some cases, one juror's "reasonable doubt" may be total obtuseness. The same factors can be involved in a verdict of "insufficient evidence."

As we all know, justice is imperfect and the innocent are sometimes convicted and the guilty sometimes go free. But in this case, there really appears to be no compelling evidence that A & R committed murder.

As for the level of coverage, there was a heinous crime involving attractive young women, drugs, sex, and allegations of satan worship. Then there was the possibility that the defendants had been railroaded.

Media executives would have had to be superhuman to resist.

As for the rain forests, public opinion might really be galvanized if pretty girls were being put in jeopardy by the clearing operations.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 09:35 AM

So do I....

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 09:31 AM

an investigation should be launched

And then they could devote masses of time to covering the investigation... I can't see the point.

.........................

The significant things in common between this case and that of Louise Woodward were that there was a media circus, and this fed into a mob mentality on the part of many people. And nobody knows exactly what happened. In these circumstances the actual facts of the case, insofar as they are known, get buried in the mass of comment, prejudice and speculation.

They are planning to allow TV cameras into trials in England. I dread the day.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 09:12 AM

I think an investigation should be launched into why the BBC gave so much air time to this case. The world is imploding around us, the Amazon Rainforest is about to be decimated by mega dams..and the BBC gave nearly ALL their News time, morning, afternoon and evening, to this story.

It is NOT major world news.

It is only really important to the families concerned..and Meredith's family were hugely overlooked by the BBC.

Whoever it was at the BBC who ordered this immense amount of coverage to happen should be brought out from the shadows and asked to explain the reasons behind it....

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 09:08 AM

Mayet's post is an example of a false predicate. The two cases are not similar, were tried under different judicial systems, and the evidentiary processes were entirely different. The only similarity is the USA-UK connection. Another false predicTe is the contention is that since they were both convicted Knox shouldn't be allowed to profit from writing, etc. Woodward was convicted of the death, Knox was convicted of slander, but was ruled not guilty of the murder. Remember the option was there to rule that there was not enough evidence to convict which is quite different from not guilty.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 08:47 AM

Lighter, the judge has said means he remains open to the possibility that the pair were in fact involved in the crime.

I don't know whether this is just his personal feeling or whether this was feeling was shared by others on the jury but we now know at least one (and a judge at that) would appear not to be fully satisfied of their complete innocence.

As one of those with a "have some doubts" view point, I agree with him.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 08:38 AM

I found Mayet's post very interesting.

As Amanda Knox has been found guilty of "defamation," for falsely accusing her former employer Patrick Lumumba
SHOULD THIS NOT APPLY TO HER ALSO?

Yes, I think it should apply to her. Also, apart from the money that she and those who pay for her interviews will make out of this, there seems little point because I find it hard to believe that everything she will say will be the truth anyway.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 08:26 AM

The link to the Guardian says:

"Speaking just two days after he and his fellow judges handed down a full acquittal on appeal, Judge Claudio Pratillo Hellmann, said the court's verdict 'is the result of the truth that was created in the proceedings. But the real truth may be different. They may be responsible, but the evidence is not there.'"

This may sound like a bombshell to someone who knows nothing about how human courts of justice work. Otherwise, not so much.

"The evidence is not there." Period.

That means real evidence, not speculation about how it *might have* happened, based on the vigilante theory that if they weren't guilty they wouldn't have been accused.

Case closed.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 08:00 AM

Judge presiding over acquittal says Knox may well be guilty

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 06:30 AM

I always felt Louise Woodward was guilty of murder. I still think government intervention occurs quietly in cases of nationals found guilty of crimes in other countries.

In answer to an earlier question, yes I do think miscarriages of justices do occur. One being the conviction of Rubin "Hurricane" Carter and John Artis in America. It was blatantly racist.

Others were the convictions of the Birmingham 6 and the Guilford 4, in Britain. The police officers who beat the confessions out of them should have faced lengthy prison sentences, but got off with early retirement and a nice pension.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Mayet
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 05:43 AM

Yesterday Guest Dazbo wrote
"This all reminds me of that British nanny (can't remember her name) who was accused of murdering her charge in the USA. It seemed to me at the time that in the USA everyone believed her guilty whilst everyone in the UK thought she was innocent. This is just the other way round: "our" pretty young female can't possibly be a murderer but "your" pretty young female is obviously a callous, cold-hearted murderer."

The nanny was a local (to me) girl, Louise Woodward, a rather overweight teenager from a small village not really cast in the 'Foxy Knox' image

It is true that many people in the UK thought her innocent of the second degree murder charge brought against her and, in fact, Judge Hiller B. Zobel at a post-conviction relief hearing reduced the conviction to involuntary manslaughter adding: "I am morally certain that allowing this defendant on this evidence to remain convicted of second-degree murder would be a miscarriage of justice" and her sentence was reduced to exactly the amount of time she had already served in the US.

At the time British newspapers reacted cautiously to her release Although some had campaigned against the original murder charge the Daily Telegraph, for example made it clear in its editorial comment that Woodward's release should not be celebrated and some made strong references to the comments in the appeal judgement that Woodward should not profit from her experiences.

The parents of the victim Matthew Eappen also filed a civil lawsuit to prevent Woodward from earning any profits from selling her story under legislation designed to keep criminals from profiting from the publicity of their crimes, often by selling their stories to publishers.

As Amanda Knox has been found guilty of "defamation," for falsely accusing her former employer Patrick Lumumba
SHOULD THIS NOT APPLY TO HER ALSO?

Throughout Louise has protested her innocence and on her return to the UK said that she would be giving an interview to the BBC Panorama programme for no money
Transcript

However American media remained convinced of her guilt and she was named the most "notorious criminal convicted in Massachusetts" by Boston law magazine Exhibit A 10 years after she was released.!

One interesting footnote to this case was reported in the New York Times
'Just a week after Ms. Woodward was convicted on Oct. 30 of murdering the baby in her care ……a bill to restore the death penalty came up for a crucial vote in the state's House of Representatives.
''One of the long-lasting fallouts from the au pair trial is the defeat of the death penalty in Massachusetts,'' said Richard Dieter, executive director of the Death Penalty Information Center, in Washington'

But,to return to the subject of the thread, the search for 'justice' in the murder of Meredith Kercher has not ended here.
Prosecutor Giuliano Mignini is reported to have confirmed he would appeal to Italy's highest criminal court after publication of the reasons for the acquittals, due within 90 days.
"Let's wait and we will see who was right - the first court or the appeal court," Mr Mignini said. "This trial was done under unacceptable media pressure."
The highest court's remit is to rule on whether any procedures were violated and the hearing generally takes one day in Rome. Defendants are not required to attend.
If the highest court overturns the acquittal, prosecutors would be free to request Knox's extradition to Italy to finish whatever remained of her sentence.
It will then be up to the Italian government to decide whether to make a formal extradition request.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: BTNG
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 07:08 PM

aye and perhaps she should have mentioned it during the trial, rather like the so-called split personality defense., after the fact

you have to watch it with so called confessions and statements made by the defendant, they can get the said defendant into all sorts of trouble, ask Timothy Evans who was hanged in 1950 for murder. The police investigation in that case was marked by a lack of forensic expertise, with key evidence missed or ignored

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 06:56 PM

This is an interesting report.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 06:32 PM

Any time anyone confesses to a crime, and subsequently retracts that confession, the possibility arises that they did so because of police pressure. That is reflected in the fact that in many countries there are laid down procedures for ensuring that interrogations are videoed, or independent witnesses present etc.

Italy is one such country. However the laid-down procedures do not appear to have been complied with.

If a retracted confession does not indicate that the person making it knew things about the crime that only a guilty person could have known, it should be given very little weight indeed, especially if it is not accompanied by hard evidence.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: BTNG
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 06:00 PM

I simply cut and pasted that paragraph, what the parents did or did not do will be up to the courts to decide, whether anyone here considers it to be "truth" well that's rather up to them isn't it?

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Lighter
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 05:55 PM

What's funny is that if a foreigner had made those accusations against an American police force, half of Mudcat would assume they were *obviously* true. No further investigation needed!

If A & R are guilty, then a pair of perfectly normal appearing college kids decided to murder the roommate of one of them, for no particular reason, right there in the house. The fact that a known drug-dealer and drifter has been proved scientifically to be the killer (or at least "a" killer) apparently doesn't matter. A & R then somehow mopped up all their own DNA from the crime scene, carefully leaving the other DNA, blood, etc., intact. Then, instead of dumping the "murder knife" into the river, they placed it in Rafael's kitchen.   

I don't claim to know just what happened, but I'll take the opinion of the independent DNA analysts, the Italian appeals jury, and the two judges who were part of it, over that kind of conjecture any time.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 04:53 PM

Amanda Knox's parents unfortunately gave interviews stating what their daughter had told them; this was relayed round the world by the press and has also been quoted as if it is fact in this thread. It would have been better if they had left accusations against the police for the lawyers to deal with especially since their daughter appears to be able to lie at the drop of a hat with or without police interrogation.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 04:15 PM

This is just the other way round: "our" pretty young female can't possibly be a murderer but "your" pretty young female is obviously a callous, cold-hearted murderer.

Out of 18 people contributing, I can only find 2 (or possibly 3 if got off on a technicality counts) of the "definitely a murderer" opinion. The rest seem to be divided between "don't know/have some doubts" and "definitely innocent".

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: BTNG
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 02:16 PM

It's not over yet......

In February 2011, Knox's parents, Curt Knox and Edda Mellas, were indicted on charges of criminal slander as a result of an interview published by the Sunday Times in 2009, in which they stated that their daughter "had not been given an interpreter, had not received food and water, and had been physically and verbally abused" by police officers after her arrest. Knox and Mellas had sought to have charges dismissed, on the grounds that there was no intent.[209][210] On 4 July 2011, Judge Paolo Micheli resigned from the case, citing his involvement in the trial of Knox and Sollecito.[208] The trial of Knox and Mellas was adjourned until 24 January 2012

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: BTNG
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 02:08 PM

if there was an exposure, unproven, my opinion of you, bluesman, hasn't nor will it ever change

You are on notice, I seem to remember.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Lighter
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 02:01 PM

The DNA "evidence" was thrown out as worthless. Not only was it almost certainly the result of contamination (the police didn't change their gloves according to procedure), it was present in minimal trace amounts far below those accepted as significant under FBI and various other international standards.

What's more, Guede was identified as the murderer by the fact that his DNA was all over the murder scene, and Knox's & Sollecito's was essentially nowhere. The police took the alleged "murder weapon" from Sollecito's kitchen solely because it was a big knife. There was trace DNA on it but no trace of blood - not even, it seems, at that substandard level.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 01:58 PM

Now, wasn't DNA evidence, faulty on review, much discussed in the case and in the press?
Or has B' just been posting off the top of his head but with no knowledge of what has been reported about the case?

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 01:56 PM

I have to say, this disclosure and exposure pleased me.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: BTNG
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 01:37 PM

Now, why didn't I think that approach, DtG...probably because I'm too close to the case....oh, by the way have DNA samples beenn taken and will they be used as the primary evidence?

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 01:33 PM

M'lud and ladies and gentlemen of the jury. The irrefutable evidence is that The Famous Eccles and BTNG post from the same IP address and we must therefore conclude that they are the same person. I ask for the maximum sentence to be carried out...

...time goes by

...

..

.

M'lud and ladies and gentlemen of the jury. The evidence given at the trial of The Famous Eccles / BTNG is gravely flawed. It has now come to light that two different people were using the same computer. I ask that the prior verdict be revoked...

Grrrr. F***ing Mudcat. Get away with murder there, This bastard obviously was the same person. Someone on high has come up with some fancy way of corrupting the evidence. They are obviously guilty of something. Bastard should be hung...

Can someone stop the world please, I want to get off.

DtG

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 01:13 PM

A police interrogator slapped Amanda Knox on the head if he didn't like her answers to questions. A suspect can become totally confused and tends to try to satisfy the tormenter in order to make him stop. (see links I gave above). Al this without the presence of a lawyer.
I'm sure the jury (includes magistrates in Italy which has a modified Napoleonic Code) took this into account when they deliberated the evidence and threw out statements not collected properly.

DNA evidence would be difficult to evaluate in this case, since the two women lived together and Sollecito was a frequent visitor. DNA of all three would be all over the place.

It also seems forgotten that a third suspect is serving a sentence for the killing. He had no close connection to either Knox or Sollecito.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: BTNG
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 12:50 PM

Fair enough, as I said I believe what I believe. DNA can be corrupted on transportation or in anyone of many ways, thus it becomes useless as evidence, and thus a case can rise or fall, in this case the prosecution's case fell. It points strongly, I feel, that using the DNA samplings as the primary evidence, was a mistake. In these days of high tech, good old fashioned police work, goes by the boards.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Lighter
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 12:46 PM

Rafael and Amanda just spent four years in prison (in her case, a foreign prison), internationally reviled as drug-crazed, perverted, demon-worshiping murderers, while facing the likelihood that they'd stay there, just as reviled, for the next twenty years of their ruined lives.

All for a murder with which the Italian judicial system, including at least two judges, now agrees they were not involved.

What do you suppose they "got away" with?

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 12:41 PM

BTNG, your "look that up if you can" comment was uncalled for. I did not single anyone out, nor attack anyone personally. If I had my moderator hat on, and if it were directed at anyone other than me, I would have deleted it straightaway. As it is it stands as a testament as to why you are viewed in these parts as you are.

It is worth noting that in your haste to demonstrate what an unpleasant person you are, you chose not to answer the central contention of my post. Bad form, old sock.

Mick

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: BTNG
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 12:27 PM

Big Mick, I'm not going to explain myself or my belief in their guilt, to you or anyone else, I believe what I believe and that's all you need to know.... Judicial systems are not infallible, there are far too many mistakes in the judicial histories to prove that point, look them up, if you can.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 11:55 AM

And that is the nut of it, Kevin. The presumption of innocence is critical to those of us who live in a country that made important modifications to the system of laws that were brought here. This isn't a popularity contest or a referendum on what US citizens get away with, it is about a life or death matter, and a tragedy for these families. Some of you are so tiresome in your obsessive need to attack everything about the US. I don't know if Knox is guilty of murder, or at least is complicit. I suspect the latter, but that does not matter. By every international standard the primary evidence used to convict (DNA) was tainted and unreliable. Period. Without it the prosecutors could not overcome the presumption of innocence. Some of the attitudes here are very insulting to the Italian judicial system.

Would that everyone had the grace of the Kercher family. I ache for them.

Mick

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 11:36 AM

released on a technicality.

The "technicality" being that the evidence did not stand up to examination, and the jury believed the conviction should not be allowed to stand. That's an interesting use of "technicality".

Trials are not about opinions as to what might have happened,based on media coverage, they are about a court deciding whether the evidence is strong enough to overthrow the presumption of innocence.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: BTNG
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 11:23 AM

BTNG/TheFamousEccles - decide which account you're going to be and stick with it. Talking to yourself in a thread in which a lot of people are already misbehaving isn't helpful. The rest of you, this topical thread should stay open, but the ad hominem attacks need to stop. Bluesman, you're on notice. --mudelf

sorry (actually I'm not sorry at all) whoever is hiding behind the mudelf ID, but The FamousEccles and I are two different people, we both happen to be using computers that operate from the same IP Number, so................

and I'm still convinced that Amanda Knox and Raffalele Sollecito got away with something

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: GUEST,Dazbo at work
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 08:50 AM

This all reminds me of that British nanny (can't remember her name) who was accused of murdering her charge in the USA. It seemed to me at the time that in the USA everyone believed her guilty whilst everyone in the UK thought she was innocent. This is just the other way round: "our" pretty young female can't possibly be a murderer but "your" pretty young female is obviously a callous, cold-hearted murderer.

My instincts from what I have read and seen on TV is that she more involved than an innocent person should be but I hope the Italian police can bring all the guilty parties to justice whoever they are.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 04:24 AM

or do you think she is just being incredibly magnaminous?

Or perhaps being cautious, or perhaps acting on legal advice, etc. Personally, I'd doubt that her private thoughts and feelings would completely match her public face.

My guess is much would depend on what one believed before and if one had believed the pair were correctly found guilty in the original trial, it would be unlikely that this appeal would have cleared every doubt about their involvement. Accepting that the evidence is to weak for a conviction and that an aquittal was therefore the correct verdict is a different matter IMO.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 03:51 AM

In my opinion, Miss Knox and her friend have been released on a technicality.
They should be treared by the media as such.
But the money circus has begun.......aren't we a disgusting species?

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 02:57 AM

I think the Kercher family have to try to believe in the Italian justice system because they will still be hoping that if Amanda Knox and Raffalele Sollecito are truly innocent then the person(s) who acted with Rudy Guede (and it does seem pretty certain that he didn't act alone) are eventually caught and brought to justice. There will be no closure for them otherwise. Amanda Knox would have served three years in prison, in any event, for the slander of Patrick Lumumba and the terrible suffering it has caused him and his family.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 02:39 AM

"I am of the opinion that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito got away with something," The victim's mother was interviewed yesterday and seems to accept the innocense of the accused. She even expressed sympathy for what they and their families have been through in being blamed for something they didn't do. I take it she sat through all the proceedings so must have a fair idea herself - or do you think she is just being incredibly magnaminous?

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: BTNG
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 10:17 PM

In Italy it's innocent until proven guilty given the number of defendants left free to go because their appeals are still pending

---

BTNG/TheFamousEccles - decide which account you're going to be and stick with it. Talking to yourself in a thread in which a lot of people are already misbehaving isn't helpful. The rest of you, this topical thread should stay open, but the ad hominem attacks need to stop. Bluesman, you're on notice. --mudelf

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Wesley S
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 10:10 PM

Just wondering about the Italian legal system - In America it's up to the state to prove guilt { beyond a reasonable doubt }. In some countries it's up to the defendant to prove innocence. I wonder which system Italy uses?

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: BTNG
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 09:51 PM

Being totally focussed at all times, I've already made it perfectly clear (you should really pay attebtion) that I am of the opinion that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito got away with something, maybe not the murder itself, but they got away with something. They're definitely concealing.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: TheFamousEccles
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 09:41 PM

I would rather her found not guilty than convicted on bad evidence. Just because you are charged does not mean you are guilty. And if the State's case is so full of holes, I don't want someone sent to jail just to appease the victim's family. I know O.J. did it but if I had been on jury, I wouldn't have convicted because the State's case was a complete disaster. And their lawyers were incompetent.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 09:27 PM

Worth reading are the comments in this blog, "Injustice in Perugia."

Interrogation

Also of interest: "The Ridiculous Case Against Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito." Talk with FBI profiler John Douglas by Kresta Errickson. Seot. 28, 2011.
http://knoxarchives.blogspot.com

Looking for a transcript of the trial and the appeal is fruitless since much that takes place in an Italian trial is considered confidential.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 06:32 PM

Stop feeding the troll. It sucks the energy right out of the thread if you even give it the time of day.

SRS

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: TheFamousEccles
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 06:22 PM

Remember this:

Better ten guilty men go free, than have one innocent man be jailed.

Although these days in the states, being innocent is not enough to overturn a guilty verdict.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 06:11 PM

There are certainly a lot of things that happened that whilst they may not be evidence to convict are enough to allow doubts of innocence. If Meredith Kercher's family are concerned about the acquittals then that is completely understandable in view of what has happened. I have taken the following from here:

The Italian appeals process offers more guarantees to defendants than any other legal system in the world, whereby only the weakest evidence is treated, not the whole case. Knox's team only had to attack the DNA evidence against her to undermine the whole edifice of the original trial. Italy has one of lowest prison populations in the world because of its lenient appeals process.

If the prosecution decide to appeal against the acquittals will the two of them be obliged to return to Perugia? Raffaele Sollecito would seem to be at a distinct disadvantage if that does happen since he lives in Italy.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 05:39 PM

These are the facts, Knox confessed that she was in the house on the night of the murder and that she heard Miss Kercher scream, identifying a Congolese bar owner, Patrick Lumumba, as the assailant. She told the court during the trial that the confession was made under duress but then repeated the entire account in a five page memorandum the next morning.

The prosecution said the fact that Knox falsely accused Lumumba of being the killer was a sign of her own guilt and an attempt to throw them off her trail. He was arrested in a dawn raid by armed police and spent two weeks in jail. It was only by chance that a Swiss businessman read about the case and came forward to say he had been talking to Lumumba in his bar on the night of the murder — offering him a rock-solid alibi. Lumumba says Knox nearly ruined his life and is suing her for defamation.


Sollecito could not back up Knox's alibi on the night of the murder.
She claimed she spent the evening with him, smoking marijuana, watching the French film Amelie and making love. But Sollecito told police he could not remember if Knox was with him that evening or not.
Even assuming his memory was hazy because of the drugs, it seemed odd that a young man who had just embarked on a new relationship could not recall whether he had spent the night with his girlfriend or not.


Sollecito claimed he used his computer to download and watch cartoons and Amelie. But computer experts told the court that there was no activity on his laptop between 9.10pm on Nov 1, and 5.32am the next morning — the time frame in which the murder took place.
Knox and Sollecito turned off their mobile phones on the night of the murder, from around 8.40pm, and turned them back on at around 6am, inviting further suspicion.


A bedroom belonging to one of Miss Kercher's Italian flatmates was ransacked on the night of the murder, with a window smashed with a rock. But police said the break-in was staged - broken glass from the window was found on top of clothes scattered on the floor, suggesting the window was broken after the contents of the room were messed up. Prosecutors accused Knox and her boyfriend of staging the break-in to make the killing look like a burglary that had turned into rape and murder.

I didn't buy into her little girl lost routine for a minute, some here did. It's like a dog licking it's balls, it is a matter of taste.I think she is guilty of murder.

Make your own kind of music.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Wesley S
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 05:28 PM

Yes and some of those were mine. I find it interesting that some people esp in England find it good and proper to trash the entire United States as a culture - often based on the actions of just one or two people. It's as if we were ALL OJ Simpson or Dick Cheney. But to object on a personal basis to the people who make such observations is considered impolite by some.

Tidied that for you, Wes. --mudelf

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Wesley S
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 05:07 PM

109 posts on Mudcat = "dare not speak"......

Sit and watch - maybe. Dare not speak? You've got to be kidding.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughte
From: BTNG
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 04:58 PM

Like Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox someone gets away with something, while the rest of us sit, watch and dare not speak

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 03:14 PM

Murder trials are virtually always referred to by the names of the accused, or some equivalent term. I can't offhand think of any exceptions. That's where they differ from inquests, where the focus is on the dead person.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 02:53 PM

My issue with the whole thing is that all articles about this case should say Meredith's Murder solved, Meredith's Murder Unsolved Again, not anything about the killer (if she's guilty) or the poor wrongly accused person (if she's innocent). In neither case should the issue be about HER, but about the poor person she (or not she) murdered, ESPECIALLY if not, then what is the story with how whoever did it, did it? I feel bad for the Kerchers, and would wish the possibility of anonymity on the family of the wrongly accused.

If I were them I'd go home, move, and change my name. And if that made me look guilty after all, too bad, I (think I would feel that I) deserve not to be connected to someething I didn't do.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Wesley S
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 01:07 PM

I'm sure it's just a detail to some but Troy Davis died in Georgia not Texas.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 12:40 PM

It may be that Knox incriminated Lumumba not out of wickedness, but because she'd been in a drug-induced haze at the time, was exhausted by interrogation, and knew only that an African was involved.

I think you'll find she accused him before the lengthy interrogations and it was considered to be her revenge for him sacking her. At least he has successfully sued her so there is some justice.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Lighter
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 11:46 AM

Their latest statement on CNN suggests that the Kerchers are satisfied that the acquittals resulted from a fair and thorough consideration of the case.

It may be that Knox incriminated Lumumba not out of wickedness, but because she'd been in a drug-induced haze at the time, was exhausted by interrogation, and knew only that an African was involved. Given the circumstances, there's no telling.

Just a guess, however.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: theleveller
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 11:02 AM

"If the "miscarriage of justice" was the existence and imposition of the death penalty, that's another issue entirely."

No, that was murder.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 10:59 AM

Michael, I saw an interview with them last night where that is what was said; clearly I have missed other things :)
Jean

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 10:53 AM

"The Kercher family have gracefully accepted the decision and expressed their respect for the Italian justice system."···
.,.,.,.,
According to other reports, eanjay, they have professed themselves "shocked". ~~ But please believe I am not trying to start any sort of anti-Kercher feeling or anything of the sort; they have suffered terribly, and their feelings, as Lighter said, are forgivable. But I still cannot help feeling not altogether comfortable with their responses.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 10:45 AM

John Kercher said in the Daily Mirror today that the family are "shocked" and were wondering if anyone else would now be brought to justice. 

He told the Daily Mirror: "It is ludicrous. How can they ignore all the other evidence?
"I thought the judge might play it safe and uphold the conviction but reduce the sentence. But this result is crazy.
"There were 47 wounds on Meredith and two knives used. One person couldn't possibly have done that".

There is an additional question, Knox made a false accusation against Lumumba, in full awareness that he was working at the bar at the time. As a consequence, Lumumba lost his business and his life has been greatly affected.

I suppose that in the same way as Guede, Lumumba doesn't have the resources, social and financial, to pay for 'justice' - better lawyers, or someone who will take the time to investigate further. Had they been in the USA, the 'compensation culture' there, would have taken up their cases, and I would like to see what the result would be the be for Knox.

American overseas intervention 1. Justice 0. Same result, different country, but again, sadly expected.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Lighter
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 10:38 AM

There's no legal basis for the claim that Troy Davis was wrongly convicted.

His conviction was upheld, over many years, by various appeals courts, and three times by the U.S. Supreme Court, which even delayed the execution at the last minute to be certain of the correctness of the lower courts' decision.

If the "miscarriage of justice" was the existence and imposition of the death penalty, that's another issue entirely.

Troy Davis has nothing to do with the case in Italy.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Lighter
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 10:25 AM

I feel quite as you do, MtheGM.

The Kirchers, however, are emotionally committed to what seemed at the time to have been the final chapter in the case, with all the "murderers" taken care of.

Their feelings if unreasonable, are nevertheless forgivable.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 10:14 AM

I don't know if anyone else feels this.

Michael, I don't feel that, others may. The Kercher family have gracefully accepted the decision and expressed their respect for the Italian justice system. It was always thought from the start that Rudy Guede could not have acted alone and understandably they want to know exactly what happened to their daughter/sister and for anyone responsible to be brought to justice.

There were some clear indications initially (as well as doubts) that the right people had been convicted ~ maybe they feel, like the prosecutors, that there is still some doubt and whilst Raffaele Sollecito has kept a low profile and trusted to his lawyers to see that justice for him is done that has not been the case with Amanda Knox. It was a wicked thing she did initially accusing Patrick Diya Lumumba of the murder and her behaviour and the way the media latched onto it/her has been such that this case has SEEMED to be solely about her when in fact that is not/was not the case.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 09:44 AM

The grief of Meredith Kercher's parents was indeed heartbreaking. But there seemed to me, perhaps wrongly but I think not, an element of disappointment that their revenge for their daughter's death had somehow been curtailed by the release of Ms Knox because a well-constituted appeal court had found her conviction unsafe; that they felt aggrieved that she should not continue to be locked up for more than a ¼C for a crime she might not have committed, as this made it harder for them to feel that their daughter's death had not been atoned ~ and hence that they would rather have seen her continue with what might have been an unjust punishment because that would in some way make them feel better ~~ or in any event less griefstruck ~~ about their bereavement. And all this even though the man Guele[?], who does seem, and has admitted to being, the guilty party, remains imprisoned. I am, as you will gather, most uncomfortable about the Kerchers' response.

I don't know it anyone else feels this.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: theleveller
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 09:29 AM

I don't know whether Knox is guilty or not, but what made the biggest impression on me was the contrast between the raucous circus of the Knox PR machine and the quiet grief of Meredith Kercher's parents. And why, if Americans are so concerned about miscarriages of justice, there was there no such outcry over Troy Davis? It's a good job Amanda Knox wasn't a poor black man convicted in Texas. Talk about double standards!

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 08:22 AM

Amazing the way Bluesman knows so much more about this than the jury (including judges) who decided these two people were wrongly convicted.

The news coverage about people screaming in the street at the verdict rather confirms my suggestion that, if there is any prejudice in this case, it would have been the other way round.

There seems to be a suggestion that the horrible nature of Meredith's death somehow reduces the need for solid evidence. That kind of thing is completely irrelevant when reaching a verdict.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Lighter
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 08:12 AM

My theory based on some but limited knowledge of the case:

Amanda and Rafael were in the house, stoned out of their minds, at the time of the murder. They had nothing to do with it. When they discovered what happened, they took off in a panic for fear they'd be killed too.

Hence, no alibi.

After forty hours of nonstop police interrogation, people confess to anything. It's happened before, and not just in Italy.

Furthermore, the convicted murderer, whose DNA was found everywhere, including on the corpse, incriminated Amanda and Rafael in exchange for a fifty percent reduction in his sentence. He wound up with sixteen years for a heinous murder while A & R, with no substantive evidence against them, got a quarter century each.

It's worth remembering that as part of the Italian appeals process, actual judges were part of the appeals jury.

With no physical evidence, no reliable eyewitness, no motive, no prior record of violence or any wrongdoing, the original convictions were unquestionably miscarriages of justice. Regardless of what may or may not have happened, earthly standards were clearly served by the acquittals.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 07:15 AM

The evidence screams of Amanda Knox's guilt. It is amazing how pressure and money can influence decisions

I'm sure money helps a person to get the people who can make the best defence case but I think that's as far as it goes.

I will admit to feeling some degree of unease over Knox's aquittal but rather than believing the evidence screams of her guilt, I think it highly unlikely that I would be have able to consider her guilty beyond reasonable doubt had a been a juror in this appeal.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 06:56 AM

Knox is a sociopath, born liar, and bad actor. She is a murderer, not a cute kid, not innocent, and not a victim. It just beggars belief that someone as calculating, cynical, arrogant and deluded as Knox has supporters beyond her immediate family.



The evidence screams of Amanda Knox's guilt. It is amazing how pressure and money can influence decisions, helped on no doubt by U.S. senator Maria Cantwell's remark, that there were 'serious questions about the Italian justice system' and claimed there had been an anti-American element at the trial.


You can be sure that (I let my husband make a public laughing stock out of me) Hilary Clinton had her fat arse planted in a chair in Italy recently.

Let us not forget that there is a dead girl and that is the bottom line but as usual Amanda Knox and her sociopath nature takes all of the headlines and creates the media circus and publicity hype she so badly craves.

RIP Meredith, at the end of the day God will be our judge and Amanda Knox knows exactly what she is and what went on, so best of luck to her going through life knowing she has an innocent life on her hands.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: fat B****rd
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 06:26 AM

I'm with eanjay regarding Miss Kercher. I could feel a little more pleased for Miss Knox if just one member of her family/entourage made just one sympathetic mention regarding Meredith Kercher and her family.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 08:07 PM

I don't think nationality had anything to do with it; I think the Italian police investigation was the problem. I also think that the media should not have focussed on one person when this was not about just one person. I feel very sorry for Meredith Kercher's family ~ not only have they lost her in a most horrific way but at times she almost seemed to pale into insignificance.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 07:28 PM

I'm quite sure Americans get away with crimes in other countries, but those people never make it to trial. I can't second guess those who had direct access to evidence and testimony. I don't think nationality had much to do with it--at least I hope it didn't.

It's prime troll material, and the usual troll fuck-buddies will continue to volunteer to be led down the anti-American path. I suspect arguments that are personal in nature will be deleted.

Article in the Rolling Stone. I haven't read the whole thing yet, what I have read makes it seem there was an awful lot of logic gymnastics involve in trying her, let alone convicting her.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 06:18 PM

Don't they need evidence in Washington?

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 05:53 PM

Salon take on the Knox trial: She's lucky it was in Italy, not her home state of Washington.

SRS

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Wesley S
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 05:52 PM

"Just shows that if you're American with enough money you can get away with anything. It has been happening for years."

Examples please...

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: Wesley S
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 05:43 PM

"Just shows that if you're American with enough money you can get away with anything. It has been happening for years."


Bluesman - You DO know that the blues came from America don't you? So why the hatred for America and Americans? What knowledge of the case do you have that the courts didn't? Or do you just like to yank chains?

I would have thought that World War Two would have made you more gratful to the Americans { maybe THAT won't be deleated }.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-10-11)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 05:18 PM

Clearly Bluesman knows all about this case, unlike the jury who heard the evidence.

I'd suspect that, if anything, the fact that Amanda Knox was American would have tended to make it less likely that she (along with Raffaele Sollecito) would be acquitted. I've never heard of any national stereotype that suggests that some Americans aren't seen as capable of violent crimes, to say the least.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox found guilty
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 04:40 PM

I guess no one dares to harm on American on foreign soil nowadays. A few years back in Romania a drunken marine driving his car, killed a civilian. He was immediately sent to the US, and cleared.

Just shows that if you're American with enough money you can get away with anything. It has been happening for years.

The dignity the Kercher family have shown compared to the way the brash gobby yanks have behaved speaks volumes. If the useless, lazy Italians had done their jobs properly in the first place this wouldn't have happened.



My thoughts are with the Kercher family at this time. My heart goes out to them.


Seen this coming a mile off ..............

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox found guilty
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 04:34 PM

I'm with Bill D. I haven't sat in the court room and heard all the testimony, or had access to the evidence. I think that people who make up their minds about things like this based only on what's reported are quite likely



wrong.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox found guilty
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 04:16 PM

She's certainly fortunate not to have such an open-minded judge as you on her case.

SRS

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox found guilty
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 03:52 PM

What a shock (not) she was cleared. Thank you America.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox found guilty
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 05:52 AM

Well today is the day Amanda Knox learns the outcome of her appeal.

Let's hope the fact that she lied through her teeth, implicated an innocent man and changed her story 6 times has not gone unnoticed by the appeal judges.

I have no doubt the cheque book and American Embassy will prove to be the deciding factor in this case.

Americans seem to be always innocent and immune from prosecution abroad. Hmmm, rather strange.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox found guilty
From: Lox
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 05:15 PM

This bothers me.

It looks like she's hiding something, only we don't know what.

I know that if I was being questioned about a murder I would tell no lies for fear of getting wrongly convicted.

The whole thing remains very weird and very mysterious.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox found guilty
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 05:12 PM

"The reportage indicates the main thing held on her is her travesty of lies to the cops trying to frame an innocent black man. then her story changed from being at the scene of the murder during its commission to an entirely different one."

Ah yeah - she claimed that smoking a joint or two made her either heard or imagine she heard or forget she was there or something (depending on which scene she recounted) the bloody screams of her room-mate? Odd indeed. Dope or booze have never affected me so much that I'd be too "fuzzy" to notice or react to screaming. I'm sure we've all been there (the stoned & drunk state, not murderous screams).

This really made her sound implicated to me anyway. But I'd really like to know more about the FACTS.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox found guilty
From: GUEST,Falco
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 04:50 PM

No Q, not hearsay. FACT. Verdict stands, consider it a result for justice. I was pleased to hear the outcome.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox found guilty
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 04:49 PM

I haven't followed the case closely, but I thought these days DNA technology would make such verdicts quite conclusive, either way..?

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox found guilty
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 04:48 PM

At least *I* know enough to admit that *I* have no knowledge of what the truth is in this. I wonder how so many can be so sure....either way.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox found guilty
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 04:45 PM

All the usual hearsay and magpie prattle, Falco.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox found guilty
From: GUEST,Falco
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 04:40 PM

How can you say that Q ?
She is a deranged psychopath. As is her equally sick boyfriend Raffaele Suckacheeto.

Despite desperate attempts by Knox's nauseating parents to paint their psycho daughter as sweet and innocent, the Italian jury concluded what everyone has known all along: she and Raffaele are a pair of demented perverts who murdered a trusting girl after she refused to take part in their sick sex game.

Knox was seen giggling within hours of the murder. She and Raffaele went shopping for lingerie the next day, and Knox did cartwheels at the police station where she was taken for questioning. All of which her parents insist is normal behaviour and not in the slightest sociopathic.

Her father will now launch an appeal. He said Amanda's a good Christian girl and that Jesus would want her freed. The Knoxes will ask the Christian Coalition in America's Deep South to help fund their appeal.

Could only happen in America !

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox found guilty
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 04:32 PM

The evidence was a travesty; typical of Italian 'justice'.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox found guilty
From: GUEST,Falco
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 04:19 PM

They got long sentences and deserved them. let's hope American dipomats don't pull one of their usual overseas tricks and get her released to the states to serve about 18 months of her sentence.

I hope both of them rot in an Italian prison. They robbed a family of a beautiful daughter and took a young life.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox found guilty
From: robomatic
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 04:02 PM

I was fascinated by the alternate depictions of Amanda Knox's character as either innocent young student or depraved drug fiend into sex orgies.

The reportage indicates the main thing held on her is her travesty of lies to the cops trying to frame an innocent black man. then her story changed from being at the scene of the murder during its commission to an entirely different one.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox found guilty
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 03:16 PM

I didn't follow the initial coverage, but a quick Google for information on the evidence supplied to support the prosecutions case, seemed to turn up very little of any substance whatever.

I read lots about *theories* of drug fumed sexual attacks gone wrong & staged fake break ins, but couldn't find much in the way of the actual *facts* of the case supporting those theories at all - perhaps due to weak journalism of those articles I pulled up?

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox found guilty
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 02:59 PM

She WAS involved in the cover-up!

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox found guilty
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 01:44 PM

Her immediate return to the United States should be demanded by Secretary of State Clinton.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox found guilty
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 01:48 AM

The jury was allowed to watch television and news stories about her. In essence, she was tried by the media. I hope the appeal is fairer to her.

Subject: RE: Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox found guilty
From: Amos
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 12:40 AM

As I said before, I think this is an awful miscarriage of justice, from what data I have. It sounds as though she were railroaded.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Amanda Knox found Guilty in Italy
From: Alice
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 11:21 PM

I almost threw up when I heard this news today. A travesty. There was no proof that she was involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Amanda Knox found Guilty in Italy
From: GUEST,999
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 11:08 PM

"An American student, who along with her former Italian boyfriend, was accused of killing her British roommate, has been found guilty of murder by a court in Italy. Amanda Knox was found guilty on all charges and received 26 years in prison."

Subject: RE: BS: Amanda Knox found Guilty in Italy
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 11:04 PM

Robo - I take it your first line should have read 'has NOW been found guilty...'?

My apologies. I accidentally lost robo's post in the transfer when combining both threads.
el joe clone

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: GUEST,Falco
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 07:15 PM

News just in, Amanda Knox and her former boyfriend are found guilty in Italy of murdering British student Meredith Kercher in 2007.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 04:29 PM

Did he plead for mercy from the court on the grounds that he was an orphan?

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 10:27 AM

If the man had been found not guilty by reason of insanity he might have a claim to inherit. But that wasn't what happened - he pleaded guilty of manslaughter and was convicted of that. I doubt very much if he could inherit under those circumstances, no matter what someone said on the radio.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 07:39 AM

It would be appropriate since he killed his parents and he was the only named heir that now that they are no longer here their money should be used to bring him to justice and to keep him in prison.

If he received legal aid then surely tax payers should be informed of what happened to the other money.

If he is seriously mentally ill then you would expect him to get appropriate treatment. I didn't see the programme and I haven't managed to find any mention of any treatment he is receiving that would mean he could be released back into the community after only five years.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: GUEST,Bob
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 07:11 AM

All I can find is he received legal aid for his case. He wasn't charged for fraud for using his fathers credit card either.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 05:19 AM

I asked about the money in my post on 18 April 6.17pm and Richard Bridge answered at 7.33pm to say that there was litigation and he didn't inherit the money.

I'm interested to know if it paid for his trial and if it will pay for his stay in prison. That seems only fair in these circumstances when there have been people who have been victims of miscarriages of justice and the cost of their stay in prison has been deducted from their compensation.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 03:04 AM

30 stab wounds doesn't sound 'cold blooded'. sounds very frenzied and a bit crazy.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: GUEST,Bob
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 07:42 PM

The parents had a will made, he was sole beneficiary. The fact he swung a diagnosis gave him rights under the revised mental health act, well that was what one guy said on the radio the day following the televised account of the murders.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 07:06 PM

"He achieved his goal of inheriting their money" - I doubt very much if that was the case.

As I understand it you cannot legally profit from a crime. The fact that Blackwell was convicted of manslaughter rather than murder would make no difference in this respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 12:57 PM

manslaughter verdict.

The pastors wife just got 3 years for killing her husband with a shot gun to his back while he was sleeping.

it just went off...

besides she testified that he wanted to have sex with "her bottom".

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: GUEST,Bob
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 09:35 AM

Good points Kendal.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: kendall
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 08:56 AM

As long as we have many judges we will have many judgements.

Any prosecutor who can use his head instead of his heart will go for a lesser charge that he KNOWS he can prove rather than risk going for the more serious charge that he might not be able to prove, and consequently, watch the perp walk. (A bird in the hand.)

I used to read the court news in the paper, but all it did was piss me off. For instance, one day I read that in a local court, a man was fined $25.00 for carrying a concealed weapon in a bar. It was a loaded pistol.
In the same list was a man who was fined $200.00 for driving an overloaded truck.
Another man was fined $500.00 for shooting a Moose out of season.

Go figure.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: GUEST,Bob
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 08:35 AM

Four Plymouth women were told they posed no risk to society
after they goaded two toddlers into fighting and filmed it.

The seven minutes of video showed a two year old boy wearing a nappy being called a "wimp" for not hitting a girl aged three back after she struck him in the face.

The four women were heard laughing as the toddler brother and sister are urged to keep on fighting.

The boy, aged two, is seen crying after being punched in the face by his three-year-old sister and is told by one of the four women in the room "not to be a wimp or a faggot" and to hit her back.

        
Anyone watching this footage... would have been sickened and saddened
Det Sgt Barry Walters said.

One of the women pleaded guilty to causing or procuring the children to be ill treated in a manner likely to cause unnecessary suffering or injury.

The other three pleaded guilty to jointly inciting the ill treatment of children.

Judge Francis Gilbert, gave all four women a one-year suspended sentence, saying they posed no risk to the public.

Anyone watching such footage showing grown adults encouraging very young children committing unnatural acts would be sickened and saddened.

To give suspended sentences for a such crime is a scandal. At the same court a local woman received a £200.00 fine for not having road tax or a current M.O.T. !

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 11:28 AM

Thanks, LtS, but I didn't confuse this one with the one in VA. I guess I was too naive in believing that some folks would understand I viewed it as a lack of compassion to post a thread about another horrific killing by a young person right on the heels of the VA massacre. It is all painful and sad.

Also, calling someone overly-sensitive is a bully's cop-out.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 11:04 AM

I didn't see this programme. Is he serving in an ordinary prison?

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Peace
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 10:10 AM

And as for posting as Guest, Joe has requested that you take a 'handle' so as to distinguish you from all other guests. Right now you're the no-name variety.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Peace
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 10:02 AM

So far no one is stopping you, so don't worry about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 09:39 AM

Thread creep, I have been coming to this forum for some time as a guest, I don't post often but why should guests not start threads, would often be a change from the same old same old of some regular Non guests.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 08:03 AM

I always felt sorry for Tony Martin; he was clearly at the end of his tether with it all. It doesn't make it right but as jeffp said it is understandable and the decision to reduce his sentence was the right one. Tony Martin does not appear to be, in normal circumstances, a dangerous man.

I don't have the same feeling for Brian Blackwell and he sounds as if he is a dangerous man.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: jeffp
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 07:58 AM

Hitting somebody full on does not necessarily imply being able to see. A random shot has a chance of hitting full on. It's been known to happen. That being said, sounds should indicate whether a person is advancing or running away. The shooting was unjustified, but understandable.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Grab
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 07:32 AM

I disagree, Giok. If revenge ever becomes a valid reason for killing someone, we're all in deep trouble. Barras and his friend were running away, and he still shot them. Yes it was dark, but this was at point-blank range, and if you can see clearly enough to hit someone full on, you can see clearly enough to know where they're going.

But previous provocation *can* be a mitigating factor, which is why Martin's sentence was lowered and the initial sentence was clearly wrong.

As for this case, if you claim diminished responsibility on the grounds of mental illness, you're laying yourself open to the possibility of permanent imprisonment for as long as doctors still think you're affected, as eanjay says. Sadly the system isn't as well-organised as it could be on this though, but this is happening more frequently.

And the difference between murder and manslaughter is premeditation. If you can't show premeditation, it's manslaughter. If the CPS couldn't show (to a jury's satisfaction) that he planned in advance to do it, manslaughter is the alternative.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Megan L
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 04:42 AM

Perhaps it is time we started calling things what they are.
To take another persons life is murder (There may be extenuating circumstances but that does not change the fact that a life was taken.

To take another persons car is not joy riding it is theft at best the cars are often left burnt out or trashed becoming an eyesore. so often however the car is crashed taking innocent lives if that happens the charge should be murder.

same with drink it appears to be used as some kind of mitigation for what happened. It is not a reason if the perpetrator hadn't chosen to take that drink the person with thier head kicked in or lying dead in their car or by the side of the road would not have been put in that danger if drink is used as the excuse the sentance should be doubled.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 03:43 AM

Funny isn't it, that Tony Martin was jailed for doing exactly what many Americans say they have a firearm for, he was defending his own home.
He was fed up with having his property broken into, and his farm equipment stolen.
He went to jail because his firearm was unlicensed, and the victim Fred Barras [?] was shot in the back, and was thus deemed to be non threatening and undeserving of being shot. This was in darkness BTW. (Perhaps he should have changed his name to General Belgrano!)
Make no mistake about it, Tony Martin went to jail for having an unlicenced shotgun, and for taking the law into his own hands. This was after he'd complained to the authorities about the constant theft and vandalism he had suffered from, but just because the law are too lazy to do anything about it, doesn't mean he should defend his property though, apparently.
I'm not saying what he did was right, as I disagree with all killing, but the man was shabbily treated, and was in a way driven to do what he did through lack of support from the authorities.
There is however no way that what he did should be compared with some of the others being discussed at the moment.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 09:38 PM

Don't get shitty with me and I will be both polite and civil with you in return.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 09:37 PM

Thanks, Canadienne; that is the case I was referring to, but I was under the impression that it was far more recent. The fact that Martin only spent 18 months in prison certainly puts it in a different light ...

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: GUEST,Bob
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 09:32 PM

Very nice. Charming in fact. A graduate of Charm School.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 09:21 PM

Don't get all shitty with me, Jack! I have no idea what he suffers from. Just like I don't have any idea what you suffer from. Try sarcasm next door. The guy there won't tell you to get fucked.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: GUEST,Bob
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 09:17 PM

Plenty are I am sure, maybe with your skills you could assess them ?
So what does this murderer suffer from ?

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 09:15 PM

You are very fortunate that no one in your part of the world is mentally ill.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: GUEST,Bob
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 09:13 PM

Yes you are right. That farmer made an awful mistake from the start. He should have asked to get a social worker appointed to his defence, not a lawyer. And a psychiatrist, not a barrister.

He should have made faces at the jury and shock hands with the wall.

He would never have served on a hour. After the case we could have listed to an expect on the lunchtime news tell us the name of the syndrome he suffers from, craftious.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 09:08 PM

I suspect the other person thought (as I initially did) that the 'murderer' in the thread title was the shooter in Virginia. The newspapers here in the UK have been making big headlines about his mental state and he would seem to fit the description - manslaughter due to diminished responsibility.

It's very hard to tell when mania or depression turns to violence whether it's been pre-meditated or not. I frequently express a desire to kill my spouse (especially tonight when he's snoring, snorting and twitching in his sleep and keeping me awake) and have previously been diagnosed with a mental health issue... If he doesn't wake up tomorrow, will I be guilty of murder or manslaughter? I didn't go to bed last night planning on killing him, despite expressing the desire to previously, but I've got one nerve left today, and he's snoring through it...

Normally, I wouldn't dream of hurting him, but there are situations that make me want to rip his throat out and beat him with the soggy end. If I ever once give into that desire, the release will be enormous and may well result in multiple stab wounds. The number of wounds will have no significant reason, and to me would lean towards the uncontrolled, frenzied state that a mental health problem can bring on. To cold-bloodedly kill a person takes a great deal of control - something that would result in one or two significant wounds. So, either this guy really was unhinged and therefore the charge should be manslaughter or else he was clever enough to make it look like a frenzied attack.

Whether it was manslaughter or murder, he should not be let out for a long time, he should receive treatment for his mental disorder and not use it as a soft option.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: GUEST,Canadienne
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 09:07 PM

If you're referring to Tony Martin his sentance was reduced to 5 years for manslaughter on appeal.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 08:59 PM

On the other hand, you can take comfort knowing that the farmer who shot and killed someone who broke into his house will spend the rest of his life behind bars.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: GUEST,Bob
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 08:21 PM

I agree. The guy was out to take all the mother and father had, he lost love and respect for them. People should not be allowed this easy way out of the crimes they commit. Once found guilty, then it's up to the judge to get an assessment done before sentencing. He will be out in five years.
Still trying to work out how the person above could link this case to a school shooting myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: GUEST,patty o'dawes
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 08:15 PM

I saw the programme and couldn't understand the verdict either. I also don't have any faith in the clinical assessment of his personality disorder. He was able to fool so many people for so long with his fantasy life style that I wondered if the personality disorder was another of his games.

A chilling programme and ufathomable to think he will be out so soon.

Equally unfathomable to be told by someone above that we should not have been discussing it - but that's another personality disorder I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: GUEST,Bob
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 08:02 PM

Thank you for opening this thread again. I only asked a simply question, I did not make any compassion with the sad events in America. One lady was a little over sensitive.

To me it was murder and the guy should never get out of prison. Over 30 stab wounds is not manslaughter, it's cold blooded murder.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: pdq
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 07:41 PM

Jose Iturbi!

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 07:34 PM

Sunt ubi!

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 07:33 PM

No, he didn't inherit. There was litigation. Ex turpi non oritur causa actio.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 06:17 PM

If the programme was on last night then it was appropriate to ask the question.

Brian Blackwell was convicted of manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility and sentenced to life in prison. He had planned to study to become a doctor or surgeon and was offered a university place to study medicine. I think we should all be grateful that he won't now be caring for anyone in that way - although I'm not holding my breath here because more ridiculous things have happened!

A manslaughter verdict would be OK if he was locked up in a secure hospital indefinitely.

I'm interested to know if his parents' money was used to pay for his trial or whether he will be entitled to everything when he comes out of prison. Bearing in mind the fact that some people recently released from British prisons after miscarriages of justice and having served long sentences when they were in fact innocent have now been asked to pay for their stay in prison from any compensation they have received. You would hope that no-one could benefit from their crime in this way.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Becca72
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 05:38 PM

IMO, the guest who started this thread asked a valid question about a program he saw. It was some of the regulars who made light of the situation...

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 11:42 PM

Sorry. Of course you're right.

One thing that might help is to stop all threads started by Guests in the BS section.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Bert
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 11:33 PM

Right you are katmeluv, I usually ignore such threads started by a "GUEST".

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 11:27 PM

IMO, timing of this thread is in poor taste, coming on the heels of Virginia Tech's tragedy.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: GUEST,American
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 10:35 PM

In America, they want people like that back out on the streets. Can't take up valuable slave labor prison space with problem types.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: pdq
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 10:27 PM

Once in the ol' Wild West a man was found dead with a rifle by his side.

Coroner noted death was caused by five bullets wounds. In the back.

Coronors verdict: suicide.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 10:21 PM

And if he was true to form, there was no one left to send payment to.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: bobad
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 10:17 PM

Sounds like he hired a good lawyer to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Ref
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 10:06 PM

Perhaps he was allowed to plead to the reduced charge because the State (Crown?) had a problem of proof. Sounds like a murder to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 09:46 PM

Did he throw himself on the mercy of the court because he was an orphan?

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Willie-O
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 09:44 PM

Clearly accidental.

Subject: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: GUEST,Bob
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 09:01 PM

Excellent programme on British television tonight looking at the case of Brian Blackwell, a 19-year-old student who stabbed his parents to death in 2004 before jetting off on a luxury holiday with his girlfriend.

He was jailed after admitting to manslaughter with diminished responsibility, on the grounds that he was suffering from a narcissistic personality disorder.

He claimed he just lost it. He stabbed his father 34 times after caving his head in with a hammer, his father was 72.

He hit his mother on the head with the hammer and then stabbed her 22 times.

We got off with a charge of manslaughter ! Sounds like murder to me. He achieved his goal of inheriting their money and the programme said he will be out in five years.

Does this sound like justice to you ?