Folk on the Net

Subject: RE: Folk on the Net
From: Mo
Date: 29 Apr 99 - 08:31 PM

Interesting - this thread contains the most succinct descriptions of life at the Mudcat that I've come across so far. Peter T. summed it up beautifully - a perpetual life-on-a-porch. Join in,or don't join in, but you can always "listen" to what's going on, and sometimes it's nice to just be quiet and hear what others have to say. I'm not a great one for navel-gazing, but that's my tuppence worth for now. Anyone out here on the porch want a beer while I'm back in the kitchen - and play something with a good tune and a chorus we can all join in while I'm there, why dontcha?

Mo

Subject: RE: Folk on the Net
From: bigJ
Date: 29 Apr 99 - 08:18 PM

Pete, I was at Martin Nail's workshop and, of course, one of the best places to find out about folk-music links on the web is his web page. Regards

Subject: RE: Folk on the Net
From: Peter T.
Date: 29 Apr 99 - 10:23 AM

Dear Pete, One of the big problems people face getting on the Net is that they have no picture of what it means. This makes the relationship to their Internet Service Provider complicated, and especially if you are trying to cope with Windows and Explorer as well, you might give up. The fact that these are often bundled together does not make things simpler, because it confuses quite separate tasks. People constantly confuse their computer operating system with the stuff for getting on the Web. I have had friends who thought that you did something to your computer alone and somehow you got on the Net. You need to use a workable analogy: I tend to use the idea of two books talking over the telephone. How would they communicate without sound? Most people also have no idea how the phone works, so you have to say, well, just as the phone translates your voice into electronic patterns and sends them down a wire, and then untranslates them and puts them back into sound patterns, so the Internet takes the stuff in one book (what you are typing), puts it into little packages and sends them off to be retranslated at the end of the line somewhere else. Sometimes you can pre-design the pages you are going to send off, which is what HTML (HyperText Markup Language) is for. For all of this to work, you need your own phone number (your computer address), you need to hook up to some phone company equivalent, and so on....

My experience as a learner and as an explainer of the Web has been that people need a rough mental map of what is going on, even if they quickly forget it, and even if it is somewhat simplified. It is also important to explain all acronyms so that they aren't terrified by them.

Yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Folk on the Net
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 29 Apr 99 - 04:01 AM

And we'll be pleased to be called
The Folks who live on the Net

Sorry - couldn't resist it!

Steve

Subject: RE: Folk on the Net
From: PeteFletcher
Date: 29 Apr 99 - 03:26 AM

Thanks for the input. All very interesting, and I'll try to put over some of your ideas. I was, however, planning more of a nuts and bolts approach to the subject for the many people who think they'll never manage the internet 'cos it's (1) Too expensive (2) Too complicated (3) Irelevant to subjects like folk song and music. If I can get them over the first hurdles and point them in various direction I'm sure they will find the "delights" of Mudcat and other sites for themselves.

One point of possible confusion: When I say I'm doing a presentation about folk on the net, I mean the presentation will be ABOUT the net. I had not thought of publishing this ON the net. Most of the people I'm aiming this at will not at present have access. I got the idea from Martin Nail who did the same thing at the National festival (UK) a few weeks ago. I'm planning this for the Beverley and East Riding Festival in June.

Thanks again.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Folk on the Net
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 29 Apr 99 - 12:36 AM

Pete--

One of the other things that makes the Mudcat community work is that many of us wind up meeting each other in real life. We can spin personae here in print, but sooner or later, lots of us are going to bump into each other at some festival, concert, or jam session. That we've met each other here at Mudcat helps make for instant friendships when we do meet in person, as when Joe Offer suddenly turned up in Washington, DC. It also keeps us civil: we're not merely anonymous monikers in some newsgroup--we're real people with songs and stories to share, both here on the web AND in real life. and that's not to mention all the pre-existing relationships that also go on, in part, here at Mudcat. (As an example, at least four of my real-life neighbors are also contributors to this forum, not to mention all the pele I know from the folk world.)

--Charlie Baum

Subject: RE: Folk on the Net
From: Tony Burns
Date: 28 Apr 99 - 06:10 PM

My first point of reference for Canadian Folk information is Northern Journey Online. It's well worth a visit.

Subject: RE: Folk on the Net
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Apr 99 - 03:46 PM

I think you make a good point about Max's "elegance of design," Peter. Threads posted on newsgroups are quite a bit harder to follow. If there is a misunderstanding between people in a newsgroup, it can't be cleared up immediately because messages don't appear immediately - so misunderstandings tend to "stew" and expand and develop into animosity. Chat rooms have the immediacy, but they don't give people the time to think things out and post a permanent, reasonable statement - so conversations in chat rooms tend to stay on the surface. The Mudcat Forum is an almost perfect balance between a newsgroup and a chat room.
The presence of the database and the Forum Search help, too. Most of us have the feeling that we are contributing to a permanent body of knowledge, and I think that helps remind us to use care in what we post.
Besides all that, we just have a lot of nice people here who also happen to be very knowledgeable and talented. It's a nice place to be, isn't it?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Folk on the Net
From: Peter T.
Date: 28 Apr 99 - 02:36 PM

Dear Peter, You should stress that one of the unique features of the Mudcat is that it has taken the old folk tradition of sitting around swapping tales and music and BS and adapted it to the Internet better than any other site I have seen. The rhythm seems to work, for reasons that are partly mysterious. Part of this community glue is the space provided to contribute to the Database, not to mention racking your brains for a wisp of an old tune. This is very important, as it gives people who wander in and out of the Internet a sense of a stake in this place (unlike clicking on to CNN). There are other interesting chat sites -- some of the classical music sites, chess sites, political sites, social justice sites -- but they don't seem to have much continuity. I don't know any other folk sites, because I already waste too much time here! Many sites tend towards having one or two strong people, and come to life only around an issue or two, or just meander, or turn nasty. Mudcat is odd in part because -- like the folk song ambiance -- it can be laid back, you can come on or go away, pick up your guitar (virtually) and join in, or not. There are always a few catters on the front porch, looking out at the Appalachians or the Hebrides or smelling something on the barbie. You can go back inside, do some work, and come back out again.

The great problem, which this site has, like many another on the Net, is that there are no physical signals being given off by people, just typed words; so it is very hard to assess tone, irony, and the rest. This makes generating a set of common manners (essential to any community) very hard and constantly on the verge of collapse. The Mudcat seems to have a critical mass of (to use a highfalutin word) guardians. One should also not for a moment underestimate the elegance of the design of the Mudcat site, and the work Max et al put in to making it work. This gives it a sense of a kind of quality which tempers the crap that goes on on other sites, which are crummily designed and unworthy of your contribution.

A curious thing also on the subject of Folk and the Web is the way in which the Web allows you to create a persona, but also subtley draws you in often without knowing it to reveal some interior space, which you can edit for public consumption (if you catch it in time, or want to edit it rather than letting it all hang out). In that way it is like a song, or a performance, especially in the folk tradition, which is always playing authenticity off against performance.

There is lots to say about Folk and the Net. Are you going to post your thoughts when ready?

Yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Folk on the Net
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Apr 99 - 01:31 PM

Hi, Pete - be sure to check our links page (click here), which can be accessed at the top of the forum menu or from the Mudcat Home Page. The link I find most interesting there is the Traditional Ballad Index, but there are many more resources there.
There are a number of folk-related mailing lists and newsgroups, most notably the rec.music.folk newsgroup. To avoid getting my regular e-mail filled with Spam, I use a free account at Dejanews for reading and posting messages in newsgroups. You can search and read newsgroups at Dejanews without registering, but you have to do the free registration with "My Dejanews" to be able to post messages. I've been signed up with Dejanews for about a year, and haven't found any "hitches" associated with registering.
I have a big collection of songbooks. that's really nice, but it can be tough to find a particular song when you have 200 songbooks to page through. I found out that the University of Tennessee-Knoxville (click here) has a huge collection of songbooks that encompasses most of the books I have - and they have an online index of the songs in all their books.
-Joe Offer-
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Folk on the Net
From: annamill
Date: 28 Apr 99 - 01:08 PM

Pete, I can't tell you how exciting that's going to be. I can't wait to see it. I'm already learning a great deal about folk here, but to see it all in one place is a wonderful idea. Good Luck.

The only thing that I found hard was the scope of the net. I can only access it while I'm at work, so I'm limited. I still don't have the secondary knowledge I need. I'm getting there and I've always enjoyed learning new stuff.

Anna

Subject: Folk on the Net
From: PeteFletcher
Date: 28 Apr 99 - 12:58 PM

Hi,

I'm going to be doing a presentation about folk song and music on the net shortly. The talk will be aimed at those new to the net and those who are still thinking about it. I've got quite a lot of material together already but just to help me out;

What did you find most confusing/difficult when you started using the internet? Anyone still using Win 3.1? Any problems I should mention about this? Which sites do you find most useful (besides the Mudcat of course)

Cheers,

Pete.