Tech: PowerOn Speaker/Cursor Freezes

Subject: RE: Tech: PowerOn Speaker/Cursor Freezes
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 01:07 AM

Foolestroupe -

As may be elicited from virtually any "IT" person anywhere in the world -

"If only the people I have to support weren't such TOTAL IDJETS!"

...

...

To which supported person says "No, I've got an INK Jet. I just need to know where to pour the toner into it."

John

Subject: RE: Tech: PowerOn Speaker/Cursor Freezes
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 12:31 AM

""Misdirector of IT" "

ROFLMAO... I used to be employed as one of those...

Subject: RE: Tech: PowerOn Speaker/Cursor Freezes
From: Sorcha
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 12:24 AM

Ain't it fun, John?

Subject: RE: Tech: PowerOn Speaker/Cursor Freezes
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 12:14 AM

Sorcha -

No need to feel too bad about having an older computer. I could offer some sympathy about the WinME thing, although it's probably only a little more trouble than some other really old things you may have layin' about at the house. Just remember, the old stuff needs - and deserves - a little more TLC than some of the newer and fresher stuff.

We upgraded from an old "AT" and slightly newer Win95 to a pair of identical twins, desktops running Win98SE in 1998. Lin managed to "outpace" hers in late 2001, so she got a new one with Win2K that December. (Win98 just couldn't meet some of her customers' requirements.) I struggled on with Win98, but by early 2003 I'd used up all the parts swaps I could make between the two old ones to keep even one running, so I got a new WinXP - and it's still running quite nicely, even if it's only a little newer than yours. With our 24/7 usage, the five years I got out of the Win98 machines was pretty reasonable, but at some point enought stuff inside just gets "too brittle" to keep putting in new parts.

Lin managed to "cook the innards" in her Win2K to the point where we had to get her a new WinXP machine a little over a year ago (February 2007). [I think she "blew" the third graphics card playing web games - it definitely wasn't set up as a "game machine" - and the heat from the smoking cards must have fried some memory, so the second hard drive crash - totalled taking a fast curve, I assume - was sort of a "last straw." We were also running out of old monitors to swap in and out.]

She screamed a lot about "losing her Win2K," but I think she's decided WinXP actually is a little "friendlier," and it definitely makes my "job" as "Misdirector of IT" a lot easier.

At present, I can't recommend Vista for me because I've had a lot of trouble with it in our setup. We have it only on a laptop, and in the absence of useful information or help/support from Microsoft I'm becoming resigned to using it there only as an unconnected portable device. For most users I could probably agree to an "okay, if you must" but I'm having real difficulty getting any friendly feelings for it. The new "Office 2007 Premium" on my Vista is also "incredibly unimpressive." The expectation that it will do all the things I'm used to doing in Office 2002 or 2003 just isn't an achievable goal, so far as I can tell thus far.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: PowerOn Speaker/Cursor Freezes
From: Sorcha
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 12:08 AM

On a Mac? Job's clone? Where does this guy get his meds?
Oh bugger off, cutie pie.

Subject: RE: Tech: PowerOn Speaker/Cursor Freezes
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 11:50 PM

I believe your answer may be within the newer JAVA scripting.

You can turn it off/on at will.

We are at another "clove of computer consumption."

The world is ready/able to write scripts that fuction with astounding results. UNFORTUNATELY - far less than five-percent of the users have systems to take advantage of "the new world."

Gamers (as in the last decade) are leading the battle.

The "Brave New World" was six years ago ... what lies ahead is boggling.

Dick and Susan were pioneers in an uncharted wilderness...I beleive there names are permentantly etched into tablets of 01001101111000011.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Tech: PowerOn Speaker/Cursor Freezes
From: Bert
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 11:45 PM

Tell him to keep his bloody maulers off your machine.

Subject: RE: Tech: PowerOn Speaker/Cursor Freezes
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 11:40 PM

Sorry - Scorcha - you are on a MAC - you are a Job's clone....and your solution would have been crystal-clear.

If the dead links are to Jeff-Levy-TALK-RADIO....host.

Bullcrap .... you are getting what you pay for....nothing.

Obviously, it has No Connection to the LEVY-COLLECTION - of folk music....a phenominal contribution to the world of colloboration.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

just gotta luv dem clones...editing and removal of "taint'd postin's" without reflection on what is writtin' 'bove.

Subject: RE: Tech: PowerOn Speaker/Cursor Freezes
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 10:00 PM

LOL....OK...I guess. I just solve the problem by rebooting.

And for what it's worth, it's an HP 875C Multimedia Personal Computer 'about' 8 years old. Running Windows ME with Mozilla Firefox browser. Multi USP port being used for mouse, printer & scanner.

I think I'm sorry I asked.

Yea, yea...I know I 'need' a new computer, but I'm resisiting. So, I can't watch videos...I don't care (I don't think)

And Garg...I'm NOT a McClone...or even a clone.

Subject: RE: Tech: PowerOn Speaker/Cursor Freezes
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 06:26 PM

Leenia -

I'm afraid your "analysis" is approximately bassackward.

Lines carrying similar signals should be arranged as nearly parallel as possible. Signal lines should be shielded to contain the signals they're intended to carry. The same shielding that keeps the signals in keeps out similar signals from other (parallel) lines carrying the same frequencies, so the parallel alignment can be used.

Lines that carry noise or other signals that need to be excluded and that might contain frequencies outside the range that the shielding can handle should cross perpendicular to the line that needs to be protected.

Parallel lines couple "magnetically" and perpendicular ones have minimum coupling.

Gross example: the ignition wires in your auto engine must NEVER run parallel except when carefully separated in spacer combs. If a "wrong pair" are placed adjacent, or if they're parallel without proper spacing, the wrong cyclinder may "cross-fire" and the engine makes loud and objectionable noises and sometimes stops running.

Jon -

Windows runs a PnP search for new devices during each boot. After the boot and intital assignment for the devices present, plugging in a new PnP-enabled device will generally result in recognition, and an additional assignment will be made. For devices expected to be continuously connected, and especially for devices previously connected, it usually is preferable to have the device connected at boot, so that the PnP system can pick up previous setup details and attempt to use the same ones, although it can "negotiate" some changes if needed, and it does do a pretty good job of eliminating or otherwise handling conflicts.

Since USB and some other serial devices are expected to be "variably installed" it often is preferable to let the system boot and connect the permanent devices before a "first connection" of a device that may be connected and removed, so that the permanent ones get stable assignments, and only the new one has to be "fitted in." Once the new device has been given a place (esp IRQ/DMA assignments) PnP will usually attempt to keep the same setup if it recognizes the same device at a next reboot, or if it's properly disconnected and reconnected.

If a device is "turned off" the computer doesn't know it's gone, so it's setup assignments remain in place. When the same device is turned on, it sends its "PnP ID" to the computer, and it looks like a new device. The computer thinks the old one is still there, so a new setup has to be found. Since nearly all systems will have several shared IRQ/shared DMA assignments already, a conflict with at least one other existing device is nearly inevitable.

A "cursor lockup" nearly always means the mouse has died. In Sorcha's case, it's possible that unplugging the mouse, and plugging it back in might unlock things (a really iffy possible) but then there'd be the old speaker setup (redundant) plus the new speaker setup (obviously in a conflict) plus an old mouse setup (inoperable) plus a new mouse setup (maybe working, but probably not). Odds of anything continuing to work would be "low."

USB devices are somewhat tolerant of improper disconnect/reconnect simply because USB is designed to handle several connections, so there may be a "new name" that can be used when a device is re-connected and the computer thinks it's new. [Some USB devices do have a "device unique" ID that's sent to the computer at plug-in, but this seldom helps much, since the computer fails to reconnect it to the old setup (because it thinks it's already knows where the device is) but refuses to make a new connection (because it thinks that device is already connected).]

USB provides a "special method" via the "Safely disconnect" button that should be in the Startup Tray. You use this to tell the computer that a USB device is being removed. The same device, or any other USB device, then can use the "specs" for that connection if a new connect/re-connect is made.

USB device connections and removals can generally be done at any time, if the proper procedure is used.

ANY OTHER "pull the plug" or "flip the switch" kind of removal or addition of components should always be expected to require a reboot. In most cases, it's best to shut down the computer, make disconnects/connects with the computer OFF, and then restart the computer, except in the case of "brand new" things where the installation instructions tell you to do something different to assist initial device recognition.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: PowerOn Speaker/Cursor Freezes
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 11:58 AM

My guess at this would be Window's detection of a "new" device. It (as can others) behave differently when a device is present at start up to when it's "plugged in". I presume based on whatever has/hasn't been already set up.

I had it with a Cynergy XS USB tv crd on one of my Linux. In that case, I can't boot with it in but I can plug it in later... Never worked out the cause though.

Subject: RE: Tech: PowerOn Speaker/Cursor Freezes
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 11:48 AM

Of course you have surge suppressors, Sorcha. But how old are they? Haven't I read that they wear out after a few years and need replacing?
====
We used to have a gremlin at our house. When you turned the rheostat on the dining light up and down, the speakers in the living room hummed louder or more quietly in sync.

The problem was this: down in the basement, the wire to the rheostat crossed the speaker wire going to the kitchen speaker at a right angle. I believe I remember from physics classes that a current in a wire generates a magnetic field. The increasing current in the wire to the dining room light created a magnetic field. This magnetic field then induced a current in the speaker wire that it crossed, and the speakers responded to the current by humming.

I learned from a friend who wires McMansions that the thing to do is to make as many wires run parallel to each other as possible. Likewise, we fixed our problem by moving wires so they did not cross each other.

This may not be your problem, but it's interesting to know.

Subject: RE: Tech: PowerOn Speaker/Cursor Freezes
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 08:26 AM

Don't know what I did, but the links finally worked. Could have just been 'my turn' I guess.

Subject: RE: Tech: PowerOn Speaker/Cursor Freezes
From: pavane
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 05:42 AM

I seem to recall that 'motor-boating' was usually caused (in both Valve and Transistor amps) by a high internal resistance in the power supply, which caused positive feedback ('negative resistance' type) to the earlier stages. Often caused by failure of the main smoothing capacitor, and therefor unlikely to be involved here.

Subject: RE: Tech: PowerOn Speaker/Cursor Freezes
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 11:23 PM

Sorcha -

My link to Levy (one of them) got a "Site not Found" on two tries before getting a connection. I got "Site not Found" errors, but that can depend on your machine and browser, and sometimes on what "portals" you go through. Perhaps it's getting heavy traffic?

I'm sure I have a link to Duke, but it would be old, and isn't listed identifiably. (Some of my old links were renamed by content/kind for what I was looking for when I found them.)

John

Subject: RE: Tech: PowerOn Speaker/Cursor Freezes
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 11:11 PM

THANX - I am also kewt-as-a-button.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

IF you Need Serious Help....use Yahoo (Google like Mudcat has become to verbose for the average user)

Subject: RE: Tech: PowerOn Speaker/Cursor Freezes
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 10:51 PM

Yer funny!

Subject: RE: Tech: PowerOn Speaker/Cursor Freezes
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 10:23 PM

Very intersting I think. Look, I'd describe the noise better if I could hear it! LOL.....but I did put the system on Mute today and he didn't fuss so maybe my problem is solved.

Well, one of them anyway.

The newest 'glitch' is that most of my bookmarks don't work today. They just return a timed out/connection refused. I'm talking things like the Levy and Duke sheet music sites, stuff I KNOW is still available.

It's just weird is all.

Subject: RE: Tech: PowerOn Speaker/Cursor Freezes
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 05:46 PM

Bernard -

I think if you'll take another look at my comments, you'll find that I did say that transient noise on the power line can produce noise in the audio. My point was that surge suppressors as commonly used cannot do anything about noise of this kind. This is what you found with your "unsuppressed power strip" which may or may not have been a surge suppressing strip.

Ferrite traps are quite commonly used with computers, but unless one is provided with a component, sized and located appropriately, debating the addition of one to an otherwise "unfiltered" component is seldom productive, hence my not suggesting that in the case in question they could be purchased at Radio Shack (if you could expect to find anyone there with sufficient knowledge to figure out how to order a fistful for you). Other than brute force "put one everywhere" methods, figuring out what size/kind/construction/location "trap" to apply is not exactly simple, and most such "amateur additions" will have little benefit or effect.

The entire description of the noise here is "the pop pop pop even when the volume is turned all the way down." That's not a whole lot to work with for purposes of designing a noise suppression scheme.

The "problem" described is that off/on cycling disables computer function(s). The correct "solution" here is that "random devices" should not be disconnected and reconnected without expecting the need to reboot when connections are changed.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: PowerOn Speaker/Cursor Freezes
From: Bernard
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 02:51 PM

John, I'm a sound engineer for my 'day job', and I can quite emphatically say that power line noise can cause interference in a sound system - particularly spikes which can emanate from switching a mains powered unit on or off. Such pops can cause loudspeakers to fail on high powered sound systems, which is why such amplifiers have 'soft start' circuitry which disconnect the speaker lines until the amplifier has powered up, and again on power down.

The reason for this is the Radio Frequency emissions such spikes cause. That is one reason why ferrite beads (parasitics) are often used (those plastic lumps with ferrite cores around wires), as they help suppress such interference.

Anyway, I experienced a problem similar to the one Sorcha described on my own system some years ago... if I plugged or unplugged anything on the shared (unsuppressed) power strip, the PC either made plaintive beeps, froze or reset itself.

Never underestimate the problems a 'dirty' power supply can cause!

Subject: RE: Tech: PowerOn Speaker/Cursor Freezes
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 12:24 PM

The "frozen cursor" quite probably is due to a failure of the PnP (Plug-And-Play) utility to "find" the speakers when they're turned back on and to assign them correctly. Quite possibly, the audio is getting an interrupt (IRQ) assignment conflict with the mouse that stops the mouse from working.

There are few practical remedies for this situation (if it's what's happening). PnP is pretty good at assigning "workable" configurations at bootup, but a new "serial" device added after the machine is running is a very real problem, and sometimes it just doesn't work.

When the speakers are turned off, the "assignments" they had may remain registered with the OS, and when they're turned back on the computer can't use the same one(s) since the computer doesn't know this is the same speaker set that went away and then came back. The computer must "install" it as a new device.

If there isn't another assignment "free" the "new speakers" can't be turned on, or a conflict is created that stops something else - or the whole computer - from working. Since there really aren't enough IRQ (or DMA) assignments available for a "modern" computer to run properly to begin with, it just doesn't work.

Overloading of the available IRQ and DMA assignments is one of the reasons USB is so popular, since it allows multiple "serial connections" to share one set of IRQ/DMA assignments, using what amounts to "device names" to separate things. To some extent this amounts to just giving the problem a new name and a different haircut for disguise purposes; but it at least produces a "slightly more tractable" set of problems for the current overload of plug-ins.

New USB devices can generally be plugged into a computer that's running. Most require (or at least benefit from) using the "safely remove" utility to unplug them. Older "plain-vanilla serial" devices need to be in place and turned on at re-boot to be reasonably assured of a working connection. Disconnecting and reconnecting one serial device usually(?) makes the computer provide hookups for two devices, the old one that it thinks is still there and just being quiet, and the new one that suddenly appeared. Often, there simply isn't a "safe" connection available.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: PowerOn Speaker/Cursor Freezes
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 12:12 PM

A proper training program should be fun for both of you, even (especially?) if extended efforts are needed and results are slow to come.

Surge strips are necessary to protect against high-voltage spikes that might damage something, but can't do much of anything about poor line power quality within the normal tolerances of the service. The power supply in the computer has to live with variations in line voltage that are much wider than most people realize - that the "power guys" consider "normal" - whle still providing stable power to the innards of the computer. A surge suppressor only functions when the voltage goes to "more than normal," and does nothing about variations within the accepted ranges, whether they're variations in voltage at line frequency or rf "signals" imposed on the line.

Speaker noises are unlikely to come from power line deviations of the kind affected by surge suppression, and are much more likely to be related to something going on within the signal level systems within the computer. Some interference can be picked up on power lines, and passed into the computer, but the surge suppressors can't do much of anything about them. Common sources often cited are cell phones, garage door openers, and the neighbors' Wi-Fi. A few instances of interference from weather radar on passing airplanes are reported; but the charges against all of these are somewhat "suspect" when examined closely.

When we first hooked up our new DSL, we had a few days of seemingly random "burps" on the first machine connected that AT&T told Lin were a 'phone line problem that they were "working on" - and they went away a couple of days later. "Advertising" (not quite what I could call "instructions") had mentioned that we should leave the computers on constantly for ('phone) "line quality adjustments" during the first 10 days, and apparently some tweaking was needed. It could be, perhaps, expected that a significant change in a neighbor's service might require "re-tweaks"(?).

Household applicances can cause "audio" noises, especially if they're on the same circuit as the computers. The noise you hear usually is from the "transient" when a switch or relay flips, and not from the voltage sag/recovery produced by running of the appliance.

The speakers quite probably use a separate "power supply" (a wall-wart) plugged into the surge strip. Most of these supply rectified dc voltage, and a deterioration of the "wart" or of the wire to the speakers - or of the connecting wiring between speakers - or an insecure connector plug/socket - could produce erratic noise.

Some ancient solid-state audio circuits, when "turned 'way down," could produce a noise called "popcorn noise" and/or "motorboating" but it's been decades since I've heard (or seen) mention of either term, since the kinds of transistors that produced it simply aren't used in "modern" circuitry (except in diesel-electric locomotives, where "small noises" aren't too much noticed).

John

Subject: RE: Tech: PowerOn Speaker/Cursor Freezes
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 08:31 AM

John, I'll try your idea. He's 'sorta' trainable. Computer is already on power surge strips. Always has been.

Subject: RE: Tech: PowerOn Speaker/Cursor Freezes
From: Bernard
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 07:07 AM

Sounds like an electrical 'spike' because you haven't got an anti-surge filter on your electrical supply. You should be able to buy a suitable power strip from your computer shop. Even better, a battery-backed power supply so your compyter keeps working long enough for you to shut down properly if there's a power failure, as they also have filters built in.

The pop pop pop, even with the volume turned down, seems to suggest a problem elsewhere... heating boiler, air-con, fridge, freezer or something. An anti-surge filter would stop those affecting your pooter.

Subject: RE: Tech: PowerOn Speaker/Cursor Freezes
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 11:27 PM

Sorcha -

The little "looks like a speaker" icon at the bottom right (the Startup Tray) should pop up with a box you can check to "Mute" the whole sound system. If should have the same effect as turning the speakers off - unless you have some friendly little elf doing a bit of arc welding inside your computer.

Is it possible that Mr might be sufficiently "trainable" to be taught to "mute" instead of power off? Surely he has sufficient "favorite rewards" that the Pavlovian method might work(?).

If that's not a possibility, a further description of the "pop pop" phenomenon might help in finding an alternative, although we all know these "domestic disagreements" must be handled quite carefully by third parties who attempt to intervene/assist.

John

Subject: Tech: PowerOn Speaker/Cursor Freezes
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 10:58 PM

Help! Does anyone have any idea why when I turn on the Power to my (computer)speakers, it freezes the cursor (and I assume the whole computer?)

I prefer to leave the power ON but Mr can hear the pop pop pop even when the volume is turned all the way down. I can't.

It bothers him greatly so he punches the Power button off. If I forget to turn it on before I boot the computer, the cursor freezes and I have to re boot.

Any ideas? It's not a major deal, just a PITA.