I'm not saying we should get paid, but..

Subject: RE: I'm not saying we should get paid, but..
From: Genie
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 02:09 AM

Barry, I'm sure you're wrong about the copyright laws in the US. Disney even once tried to stop the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts from using their songs at campfires without paying royalties. They backed off in the face of well-deserved public pressure and ridicule, but legally, I'm pretty sure they were on solid ground.

I do know that when "cover bands" perform at clubs, either they or the club pays royalty fees for the use of those copyright protected songs.    And when bigger name artists do concerts and perform songs they didn't write, you betcha they have to pay royalties for such commercial use.

YouTube is a little fuzzier, since there's no money involved directly (though many people do use the site as promo for their own music careers).   But the copyright holders can -- and sometimes do -- make people take videos off of YouTube because of copyright violation.
No, in the US you don't legally have the right to perform someone else's song in public -- much less record it and post it on line -- without the permission of the copyright holder.

(I'm sure we have about a dozen threads here at Mudcat on this topic.)

Subject: RE: I'm not saying we should get paid, but..
From: Barry Finn
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 12:34 AM

I think here in the US we're used to it being a bit different than how it's done in the UK.

I believe this is true;
I can write a song here (US) & anyone can go on stage, anywhere & perform it & I'm not due any compensation or royalities. I cannot record someone else's works but I can sing them where ever I like without payment or permission.

I don't know how this goes for U-Tube. I don't evenb know where U-Tube is HQ'd out of but I'm sure that many American perfomers & non-performers see U-Tube as any American stage where they can sing anyone's material without needing consent or royality payment. I have only a couple things up at the moment but will have more up in the near future but so far it's all traditional stuff. The only one I'm thinking of is a song by Guy Clark & I'll be trying to contact him 1st before I plan anything.

Barry

Subject: RE: I'm not saying we should get paid, but..
From: Genie
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 10:25 PM

As we've said, Cringe, things like YouTube are very slow, roundabout, and iffy publicity for a songwriter if he or she is not credited as such in the videos posted there.

Fat lot of good it does you as a songwriter for your work to become popular if no one knows it's yours.

Subject: RE: I'm not saying we should get paid, but..
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 10:07 PM

yeh i suppose you're right. its just one of those things. in a way, its a personal defect. i suffer from a lack of vision. In a bout ten years - i'll think, Ah ha! that's what I should have done. i'm like that.

Subject: RE: I'm not saying we should get paid, but..
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 08:17 PM

Youtube, when it works, is decent free publicity. It's the means to the end rather than the end.

Good luck with it Al, meanwhile...

Subject: RE: I'm not saying we should get paid, but..
From: Genie
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 08:08 PM

Oh, I agree that you SHOULD get paid if someone uses your creative work. It's the logistics of making that happen, if you're just "the little guy," than can be the problem.

Subject: RE: I'm not saying we should get paid, but..
From: olddude
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 07:46 PM

I think you should get paid, it is your creation, came out of your head and heart. Why can others record it without expressed written permission. I don't think it is right at all and I would be upset about it

Subject: Others using your songs on YouTube w/o paying
From: Genie
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 03:26 PM

I'd think that the most important thing, more important than getting directly paid royalties, would be to be clearly and prominently identified as the songwriter either in the YouTube video itself (preferably in an intro caption) or in the little blurb that accompanies the video (ideally, just under the title).
This matters a lot more in cases where either the general public isn't familiar with the songwriter or where the songwriter is well known but the public has no idea that he or she wrote the song.   
I don't know if there's any handy recourse with YouTube and similar sites.   Suing people would probably cost more than it would be worth (not to mention scaring people away from helping "share" your songs with the world).   Posting a comment has, well, the limitations that you've mentioned, though Poppagator's suggesting is spot on.   If there's any way to contact the people who've performed your songs and posted them on line, I'd contact them and ask them to give you proper acknowledgement as the composer.
Maybe you should post your own recordings of each of these songs -- or portions thereof -- on YouTube with clear, hard-to-miss captions that point out that you wrote each of those songs (and telling people where to buy the CD.    Then when someone plays one of the other people's versions of your songs, your videos' icons and captions will show up in the sidebar.   
People often check out the "related videos" in the sidebars, including checking out multiple recordings of the same song.

Subject: RE: I'm not saying we should get paid, but..
From: Bee
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 02:58 PM

He may have cut off comments because WLD appeared. It came up in discussion elsewhere that many people who stick stuff on Youtube or who write tabs or collect lyrics are so uneducated regarding the way copywrite laws may affect them that they easily spook when they think someone may be about to invoke such laws. They may be doing nothing wrong, or even when they are, the resolution could be easy (such as here, where just acknowledging WLD would likely be courteous and enough), but they're nervous and prefer to ignore the problem or run away from it.

Subject: RE: I'm not saying we should get paid, but..
From: PoppaGator
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 02:50 PM

In the meanwhile, I saw another thread where you had already posted the link to one song...

I wonder why that bloke cut off comments; that's fairly unusual. I think ~ I've never noticed such a cutoff before, and I've read plenty of YouTube comments.

Subject: RE: I'm not saying we should get paid, but..
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 01:20 PM

yeh tried that - the bloke who has written the page has done 'Do not embed' order into the comments page.

Don't worry about it - its nice someone wants to listen to such an old song. Its not as though I'm living in an alley, down and out and all that. It set me off though. i'm looking for the Dutch version now.

you can get to all the versions i know about here

http://bigalwhittle.co.uk/id12.html

Subject: RE: I'm not saying we should get paid, but..
From: PoppaGator
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 01:11 PM

Now that you've aroused our curiosity, how about supplying links to the videos in question, or at least song titles or something we can use to look 'em up? Please?

Every YouTube video comes with a "comments" section. If I were you, I'd post a message there to accompany each performance, identifying yourself as the songwriter.

Since you've quit gigging, you can't make money from this newfound notoriety by promoting your appearances, but maybe you can drum up some CD sales through the YouTube comments section. If you're loath to publish your personal email address to the World Wide Web, maybe you could set yourelf up with CDBaby and post a reference to their page where your recording can be purchased.

However few people actually read the comments, you can be pretty sure that the performers, at least, will check in periodically to see who's saying what about them. Keep them in mind when deciding what to write.

Subject: RE: I'm not saying we should get paid, but..
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 12:56 PM

I was the group. i couldn't afford to pay myself.

Subject: RE: I'm not saying we should get paid, but..
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 12:52 PM

Shouldn't the groups be paying royalties to use the songs?

Subject: RE: I'm not saying we should get paid, but..
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 12:50 PM

I don't really do gigs any more. i'm not really well enough to hump PA's and guitar cases about any more.

Interesting - perhaps you should advertise on your site Nick. 1.6 million people!

You see I did my apprenticeship in folk clubs of the 1970's where four blokes and a dog in the audience was considered a decent turn out - I guess I'm hopelessly old fashioned.

Subject: RE: I'm not saying we should get paid, but..
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 12:39 PM

Thats where you go and sell your valuables for cash isn't it, Nick?

Just think Al, 50 thousand people who have all downloaded the song for free. Now if they copy it onto Cd and give it their mates etc etc.

All you have to do then is advertise your gigs in one of the Sunday Papers and bobs yer uncle.

Subject: RE: I'm not saying we should get paid, but..
From: Nick
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 12:34 PM

I have a site which has had 1.6m visitors over time.

What is 'porn'?

Subject: RE: I'm not saying we should get paid, but..
From: Nick
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 12:32 PM

But there are thousands of people wanting to come and hear your other songs surely?

If you can connect with them and promote your gigs and then sell a CD to one in a hundred ...

Wonderful opportunity.

Subject: I'm not saying we should get paid, but..
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 12:21 PM

Someone told me that one of my old songs was on Youtube. naturally I was really pleased that someone had done that - flattered.

When I had a look, I found i was on two Youtube sites - 20thousand hits on one - thirty thousand on the other. Fifty thousand people listening to my song from all those years back.

This Youtube business is okay if you are an up and coming group (cos its free promotion and it will get you work)   or even an old group with lots of money, or aa working group with a product to to flog in the music market place.

Sod all in it for me though - as far as I can see. apart from the satisfaction of having more hits than the deities of the folk revival. what a curse having an ego is!

50 thousand.... I could be a porn site with that number of people.