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BS: Dipel-DF Question???
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BS: Dipel-DF Question??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dipel-DF Question??? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 02 Aug 08 - 11:55 AM I'm amazed that this thread is still above the line. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dipel-DF Question??? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 01 Aug 08 - 03:55 PM If you're using something with BT then don't use it on days when the wind will carry it and target your spray directly on the plant that needs it. I have a small bottle of Thuricide in the fridge and I use it when the caterpillars are showing up on the plants (and they usually come in waves, according to the season.) Whether it is a caterpillar of a moth or a butterfly, you don't want it devouring your veggies, but if you only spray your veggies and not everything else, then you'll limit the carnage. Neem is a good one for some things, but this time if year it fries plants. I killed a tree with it because I didn't realize it has to be used when the temperature is under 90 degrees. I leave that one only for early spring and later fall. The thing about organic gardening is that, despite the claim of the chemical pushers, there is a LOT of research and as scientists learn more the modify their approach and sometimes things that were once considered good are dropped off the list. I found the label for the Dipel DF - here. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dipel-DF Question??? From: Bobert Date: 01 Aug 08 - 02:40 PM But does Dipel DK kill butterflies, SRS... Pdq says it does... I don't see anywhere in what has been posted that it doesn't... I donno... I hate usin' anything and nopw I'm at least a little paraniod that it's gonna kilt off some butterflies... One hit my windshield yesterday and died and its still buggin' me... Wish that pesky groundhog would hit my windshield... (No, Bobz... That sumabich come right thru it and plant himself in yer hillbilly face, broken glass 'n all... You wnat that???) Bring the sumabich on... The insurance will pay for the windshield... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dipel-DF Question??? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 01 Aug 08 - 12:47 PM Pyrethrum is a hazardous pesticide. It is a NEUROTOXIN. You're publishing old (2000) information that has long-since been considered obsolete. More recent, and one he still stands by, is this article from Howard Garrett (an excerpt):
I've been concerned about the misuse of pyrethrum products for some time, and I have never recommended a pyrethrum product that contains other toxic materials. One of the common extra ingredients is PBO, which is a synthetic synergist that gives the basic insecticide more killing power. As you can read in the Journal of Pesticide Reform, (Vol. 22, No. 1), published by the Northwest Coalition for Alternatives to Pesticides, there are scary facets to pyrethrum. The journal says that, in laboratory tests, insecticides made from pyrethrum have caused tumors in animals, increased the risk of leukemia, disrupted the normal function of sex hormones, and triggered allergic reactions including heart attack and asthma (see www.pesticide.org/Pyrethrins%Pyrethrum.pdf). Because of a recent surge of interest in using pyrethrum for mosquito control, I feel that I need to make my warnings stronger. Pyrethrum and related products are neurotoxins. These days, they are being recommended for use as safe, natural insecticides. The concept of the backyard mosquito mist system in which they are being used is good, but cedar or other biological products should be used instead of neurotoxins. The alternatives work as well, but they don't kill beneficial insects and are considerably less toxic. In addition, some consultants and quite a few stores and contractors are selling and using combination pyrethrum/diatomaceous earth/PBO products. This concerns me because they are promoting these products as organics, and the idea often is marketed as something that I approve. I don't approve. In my opinion, these pest-control products are in the same unacceptable category as diazinon, dursban, Sevin and Orthene. PBO deserves specific comment as well. It shows up in a variety of pesticides, even some orange oil/d-limonene and neem products. These combinations are unacceptable in an organic program. You'll find information about PBO in the Journal of Pesticide Reform, too. PBO has some of the same toxicity issues as pyrethrum, but it is exponentially worse when mixed with other toxic chemicals to make them more effective at killing bugs. Pyrethrum products are toxic to bees, fish and other aquatic life, but they are even more toxic when PBO is added. For me, pyrethrum no longer is an acceptable insect control in an organic program. Pyrethrum combined with PBO has never been acceptable. Furthermore, synthetic pyrethroids that also contain PBO are even worse than the "natural" products. Synthetic pyrethroids are similar in chemistry and action to pyrethrum pesticides, but they are a bigger problem for people with allergies and asthma. One of those synthetic pyrethroid products is Scourge, which is being used by Dallas and other cities for mosquito control. Its active ingredients are a pyrethroid called resmethrin and PBO. Some consumer products containing synthetic pyrethroids also are available for the control of ticks, fleas, ants and other insects. I urge you to avoid them. Bobert, pdq is not practicing or advocating good organic gardening principles. Hell, you might as well get a moonsuit and spray Ortho products as follow his advice. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dipel-DF Question??? From: pdq Date: 01 Aug 08 - 12:00 PM Folks need a wake-up call on this one... Subject: Scientists to Call for a Ban on Btk---- Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 07:48:42 -0400 From: Stephen Tvedten Organization: Get Set Inc. (www.getipm.com) To: Lyndon Hawkins Senior Research Scientist State of California, Department of Pesticide Regulation - Integrated Pest Management Dear Lyndon, I thought you might like to read some more sound science on another of your "registered" insecticides. The article appeared in The Medical Post VOLUME 35, NO. 25, July 6, 1999, and was entitled: Insecticide's ill effects on mice prompt French scientists to call for ban - By Karen Birchard PARIS - French government scientists have called for a ban on the insecticide Bacillus thuringiensis (Bt) after finding that inhaled spores cause lung inflammation, internal bleeding and death in laboratory mice. Dried Bt spores is one of the few insecticides sanctioned for use on organic crops in Europe. It is also used widely, including in Canada, to combat forest pests such as the spruce budworm. Last year, a team led by FranÁoise Ramisse of le Bouchet army research laboratories near Paris isolated a strain of Bt that had destroyed tissue in the wounds of a French soldier in Bosnia. The strain, known as H34, also infected wounds in immunosuppressed mice. Now the same team has found that H34 can kill mice with intact immune systems if they inhale the spores. According to the May 29 edition of New Scientist, the researchers found that healthy mice inhaling 100 million spores of Bt H34 died within eight hours from internal bleeding and tissue damage. Spores from mutants of the same strain that did not produce the insect-killing toxin were equally lethal to mice, suggesting the toxin was not to blame. The researchers think the symptoms are caused by other toxins. The bacterium's close cousin, Bacillus cereus, produces a toxin that ruptures cell membranes. In 1991, Japanese researchers showed that B. thuringiensis produces the same toxin. In fact, when the French researchers ran samples from the soldier through an automated medical analyser, it seemed to show that the bacterium was B. cereus. Ramisse suggested companies producing Bt spores might make them safer by deleting the promoter sequence that activates the gene for the membrane-rupturing toxin. Although H34 alone is not used as a pesticide, commercial strains of Bt tested by the researchers also killed some mice or caused lung inflammation when inhaled. The team obtained these strains from Abbott Laboratories, a major supplier of Bt (the supplier to the Ballard / Magnolia project), based in Chicago. Ramisse pointed out that the strains are sprayed on forest pests at concentrations of 100 billion spores per square metre, and therefore might pose a danger to people in the immediate vicinity. But Abbott maintains Bt is safe. "We stand by our products," said Linda Gretton, a company spokeswoman. The French researchers have not yet tested strains made by other companies but they believe Bt infections may be more widespread than suspected. Determining the extent of the problem is difficult because doctors tend to dismiss any Bacillus in patients' cultures as contamination, Ramisse said. Consequently, the cultures are often discarded. "I wish they would start keeping them so we could check for Bt." When Bt was sprayed in towns in Oregon in 1991 to combat gypsy moths, the bacterium was found in clinical samples from 55 patients who had been admitted to hospital for a variety of other reasons. http://205.150.151.64/plweb-cgi/fastweb?state_id=956809870&view=mdlink&n Well Lyndon, why do you "register" any toxin without adequate study? Why do we have to suffer and/or die before you decide to "unregister or test" the POISON? Respectfully, Stephen L. Tvedten |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dipel-DF Question??? From: pdq Date: 01 Aug 08 - 10:59 AM Pyrethrum and its related synthetics are wonderful. They are irritating to mucus membranes but are classified as "non-toxic". They also breakdown within hours of use. Insecticidal soap is a real good choice. See the Safer Brand site. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dipel-DF Question??? From: Bobert Date: 01 Aug 08 - 10:54 AM Well, well, well... Think I'll have to do some more research oon this product... We haven't had to use anything in the past because of the large number of little green frogs and the lady bugs but, for some reason, we don't have enough of them this year... Not sure why because we haven't changed anything in our ecosystem... Maybe it's from too much rain which has kinda wrecked our pond??? Covered with green weedy stuff... Plenty of big frogs but not too many of the little green ones (3/4 inch)... Think we'll just go out later this evening and squish them bugs... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dipel-DF Question??? From: pdq Date: 01 Aug 08 - 10:54 AM Here is a website for Safer Brand... http://www.saferbrand.com/landscape/landscape3.asp They make some great products such as insecticidal soap and BIONEEM. However, they still list Dipel type products as "naturally occuring" and sell them as "organic". I think scientists in California were sharp enough to get BT banned in that state. I sent a few letters there myself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dipel-DF Question??? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 01 Aug 08 - 10:49 AM pdq is way off the mark on this one, Bobert. I have tons of butterflies in my yard and I use Bt regularly, but I use it in a targeted manner. Dirt Doctor organic gardening information. I use Thuricide, it's also a BT product, but it's liquid and is mixed with water. Your powder is meant to be puffed onto the plants straight, but with a very light coating. You might find that Diatomaceous Earth (DE) would work as well.
The biological pesticide Bacillus thuringiensis is a beneficial bacteria applied as a spray to kill caterpillars. Sold under a variety of names such as Thuricide, Dipel, Bio-Worm, and others. Use Bacillus thuringiensis 'Israelensis' (Bti) in water for the control of mosquito larvae. Use Garrett Juice with Bt for extra benefit. Molasses at 1-2 oz. per gallon of spray also helps. It provides protein and keeps insect-killing bacteria alive on the foliage longer- even during rain. Bt 'San Diego' is good for Colorado potato beetle, elm leaf beetle, and other leaf-chewing beetles. Garrett Juice is a commercial bottled form of his compost tea recipe. All of those recipes and information about products are available in the Dirt Doctor library. This stuff is effective, particularly on caterpillars and bugs that were caterpillars, but don't spray it indiscriminately because, as you can guess, it will kill butterflies. Dipel information at a garden center site. The sprayer might not spread as far as the dust, if that is what pdq is worried about. I have a puffer for the DE that would work for the dipel also. This is a much better choice than things that say they're natural but have pyrethroids (really toxic to everything). SRS |
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Subject: RE: Review: Dipel-DF Question??? From: Bobert Date: 01 Aug 08 - 10:27 AM Hmmmmmmm, thanks, pdq... Wasn't aware of that... I've never used it nor heard of the stuff until just last week when some friends told me about it and gave me some... Think I'll not use it... B~ |
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Subject: RE: Review: Dipel-DF Question??? From: pdq Date: 01 Aug 08 - 09:40 AM Dipel may be pushed as an "organic pesticide" but it really a biological weapon intended to kill chewing insects. The active ingreediant is a bacterium named Bacillus thuringiensis. When an insect larva eats the BT spores, it becomes infected, swells up and dies. Eventually, the drying dead larva explodes, throwing millions of spores into the air. The new spores go everywhere. Into the nearby forest even into the atmosphere, evenntually landing on plants where the process continues for ever. Once you have used BT, you can't reverse the damage. The gift that keeps on giving for ever. Some people claim that the butterfly population in the US has dropped to less than 1% of what it was 40 years ago. Look no farther than Dipel and related products pushed on us as "organic". Thanks a lot. |
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Subject: Review: Dipel-DF Question??? From: Bobert Date: 01 Aug 08 - 09:16 AM I have a bag of Dipel DF organic pseticide that a friend gave me and want to use it to kill bean beetles but the tag is missing and I've checked out various websites for mixing porportions and the only ones I can find are for acreas... No good... I only need to mix up about a gallon and a half for 3 lima bean tee-pees... So, anyone know how much of the Ditel to use to make a gallon and a half??? B~ |