BS: Racism: Why?

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Sorcha
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 02:36 PM

Ledbury, tell us WHERE you think Em has posted under YOUR handle. Yes, money where your mouth is.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Emma B
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 02:26 PM

I have NEVER posted under anyone else's handle Ledbury and I think you should put your money where your mouth is or shut up here.

Better still, stop hiding under silly guest names and just post under your own mudcat handle.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: GUEST,Ledbury
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 02:17 PM

I see Emma B now posting under my handle. Naughty naughty Emma. I see now what giok meant last month on the forum !

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Sorcha
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 02:09 PM

Castrate.....ROF here.....I guess that could be done too....eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Emma B
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 02:03 PM

I wouldn't wish to castigate someone for their ignorance of 'our' English language
- perhaps Ledbury has another little problem besides his teeth?

'Em' - unapologetic omnivore

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Emma B
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 01:35 PM

'So because of this you castrate me as a racist ?'

Thanks for the best laugh of the day LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 01:13 PM

guest Ledbury,

Its fine to be proud of your British culture but conserving it by discriminating against others is ignorant. If British culture includes a false sense of superiority than it isn't worth hanging on to. In fact, your attitude is just a hold over from the days of colonialism and, as you know, the British Empire no longer rules the waves.

btw - Don't blame migrant workers for your rotten teeth. Get with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: GUEST,Ledbury
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 12:37 PM

I am proud of my country, proud of it's achievements and I am proud to be British. Am I really so wrong to wish to conserve it for future generations of my family ? How can I possibly pose a threat to anyone ? Would I vote to elect someone who shares this view ? of course I would. So because of this you castrate me as a racist ? I am not going to change my views to please anyone, I am not going to alter my opinions to confirm to silly rules brought in by sunflower seed-eating pressure groups. Understand that attitudes in Britain are changing I am very glad to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 12:34 PM

Well, in the words of Bruce Springstein, "Sooner or later it all comes down to money...."

Waht we have is a history of the wealthiest using wahtever they can to divided us and make us fearfull of others... That is the "divide and conquer" game and they ahve used it as effectivelu as Hitler used the brownshirts in the 30's...

The reality is that 5% of the people have corraled 82% of the wealth and they want to keep it just that way and so they dool out a smidgen of it into various hate campaigns to "keep 'um seperated" and until the other 95% catch on to thei pea-under-the-shell game then things will stay this way...

B`

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 12:26 PM

Thank you, 'Beardedbruce' for cutting-and-pasting information on the Armenian Genocide - which, as it happens, I am completely incapable of googling for myself! It's a pity that you didn't include the references ... Dooohhh!!

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Lox
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 11:57 AM

"I suspect that you are one of those people who just can't believe that those in authority would manipulate 'human nature' for their own selfish and venal ends"

No I am not. I absolutely agree that those in authority do manipulate human nature whenever it suits them.

You have just agreed with me.

How?

Well you can't manipulate human nature unless there is something there to manipulate.

Human nature is constructed of irrational instincts as well as the capacity to reflect on them.

Advertisers manipulate our sexual instincts.

Politicians manipulate our fears.

The least subtle politicians tell us that the reason why we have no jobs is that johnny foreigner has taken them all.

The reason many people don't question this is that it strikes a chord with their irrational fear that johnny foreigner is up to no good.

Sometimes I find myself lapsing into fears of black stereotypes, especially when I am tired and walking through deprived areas at night.

Then when I go round to the houses of black people I am close friends with and I enjoy the warmth and depth of our friendships, I reflect on how powerful my irrational fear is and how grateful I am for the ability to discriminate intelligently.

Sometimes, as some of my black friends live in deprived areas, I face both sides of this challenge in a single episode. I walk through a deprived area with my radar and my defences on full alert before arriving at a friends house and breathing a sigh of relief.

If it wasn't for my choice to discriminate intelligently rather than instictively I wouldn't have those friends and I would be infinitely the poorer.

I have a wide and challenging life experience, I'm 6'2" tall, I can handle myself and tackle any challenge thrown my way and yet I jump in the air and make a weird strangled YAWP noise at the sight of a daddy-long-legs dropping into my washing up bowl.

Part of being human is having irrational weaknesses.

Growing up is about acknowledging them, accepting them, understanding them and overcoming them.

I would like to add that I don't think instinct is a bad thing.

I think we should listen to our instincts, but each time they have had their say we should continue to stage two and scrutinize them objectively to decide how we wish to respond to them.

Sometimes they are good!

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 08:11 AM

"The persecution and massacre of the Armenians came after the Ottoman Empire had collapsed."

Some of it- but it started BEFORE 1918.

The Armenian Genocide (Armenian: Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն, Turkish: Ermeni Soykırımı), also known as the Armenian Holocaust, the Armenian Massacres and, by Armenians, the Great Calamity (Մեծ Եղեռն)—refers to the deliberate and systematic destruction (genocide) of the Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire during and just after World War I. It was characterised by the use of massacres, and the use of deportations involving forced marches under conditions designed to lead to the death of the deportees, with the total number of Armenian deaths generally held to have been between one and one-and-a-half million. Other ethnic groups were similarly attacked by the Empire during this period, including Assyrians and Greeks, and some scholars consider the events to be part of the same policy of extermination.[1]
It is widely acknowledged to have been one of the first modern, systematic genocides,[2][3] as many Western sources point to the sheer scale of the death toll as evidence for a systematic, organized plan to eliminate the Armenians.[4]
The date of the onset of the genocide is conventionally held to be April 24, 1915, the day that Ottoman authorities arrested some 250 Armenian intellectuals and community leaders in Constantinople. Thereafter, the Ottoman military uprooted Armenians from their homes and forced them to march for hundreds of miles, depriving them of food and water, to the desert of what is now Syria. Massacres were indiscriminate of age or gender, with rape and other sexual abuse commonplace. The Armenian Genocide is the second most-studied case of genocide.[5]

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 05:01 AM

Lox,

I suspect that you are one of those people who just can't believe that those in authority would manipulate 'human nature' for their own selfish and venal ends. Try reading Niall Ferguson's appalling history of the 20th Century, 'The War of the World' (Penguin Books, 2006) - and then try telling me that economics has nothing to do with racism!

Oh yes, 'Beardedbruce', the above book also deals with the Armenian genocide and it is part of Ferguson's thesis that racism and racist wars are always at their worst following the collapse of empires.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 04:49 AM

"Oh? Armenians come to mind..."

'Beardedbruce'

The persecution and massacre of the Armenians came after the Ottoman Empire had collapsed.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 09:44 PM

"where racism wasn't institutionalised and wasn't an issue (the Ottoman Empire is one such example)."

Oh? Armenians come to mind...

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 08:36 PM

TRIBALISM !!!
Every one belongs to a tribe - And its SO easy to get your own tribe - Look at teenage gangs - Tribalism - Look at the problems in Africa - Tribalism - Europeans drew lines on maps to decide which country owned which bit of territory regardless of who lived where , and where the Tribal boundaries were .
So YOUR tribe has 'this' distinction - Of Language , Accent , Birth , Eye Colour , or what ever . Even Post Code these days (Zip Code for our American Tribes )
And any one who is not YOUR tribe , is your enemy .

Some of us have progressed away from the simple tribalism , but too many havent , and that's where the trouble starts .

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 07:05 PM

I went to school in a multicultural international expat school in Hong Kong.

Everyone at that school was more than comfortably off.

It wasn't as bad as some schools, but racist taunting, and sometimes bullying of Jews, Indians, Chinese, Irish etc etc (there were 37 nationalities) was pretty commonplace in the playground.

We had One Chinese teacher who got zero respect ... guess why ...

I'm a grown up now and able to make conscious judgements and I am able to be honest about my school days.

I both received and dished out racial abuse.

Economics had nothing to do with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Emma B
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 06:32 PM

Lox I suspect you are right
My nephew when he was very young had an almost pathalogical fear of spiders and would immediately kill any on sight.
He had never been at any risk from any insect and had just learned this at his 'mother's knee'
So is racism passed on.......

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 06:32 PM

I don't agree with you, Lox. It really is the other way round!

When I was a kid members of other ethnic groups began to appear in my home town - a bit strange at first but I soon got used to it and it soon became obvious that these were just people - just like me. Fifty years on and I see kids of all ethnic backgrounds getting along together - if anything they appear to be even more tolerant than I was.

But would it be the same if those in authority started to demonise representatives of different ethnic groups - as happened in Nazi Germany in the 1930s, or the Deep South in the first half of the 20th Century or in the former Yugoslavia in the 1990s? And there are many counter-examples, of multi-ethnic societies, where racism wasn't institutionalised and wasn't an issue (the Ottoman Empire is one such example).

To repeat my position. It's probably true that many people have an in-built fear of strangers - maybe it's even part of 'human nature'(?) - but racism is largely a top-down phenomenon and elites have to work quite hard to get people to seriously discriminate against their neighbours. And when they do so they usually have an economic motive.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Lox
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 06:02 PM

Racism starts before economics.

It starts in the school playgroud before kids have a clue about economics.

That is just one example.

But one exception is all you need to prove a rule isn't a rule.

Economics is an excuse for racism.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 11:36 AM

Just curious: does the name 'Efexor1' ring any bells? 'RoseBudCafe'?

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 11:10 AM

Slaps own forehead and rolls eyes, sighs, 'Jeeez'!!

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 10:56 AM

Only xenophobic regarding your dictionary eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 09:26 AM

So, 'Ledbury', you're not xenophobic regarding your country??

I can't seem to get my head round that!

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Emma B
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 07:07 AM

Sorry Lebury maybe I should have said are you using a Bradshaw guide :)

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: GUEST,Ledbury
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 06:50 AM

Sorry Emma B either you have mistaken me for someone else or you are mischief making. I am neither xenophobic or giokaphobic regarding my country or viewpoint. Can you say the same ?

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Emma B
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 06:04 AM

Ledbury? you were guest Folkestone last time (same xenophobic content and contempt) - are you posting with the aid of a road guide to the British Isles?

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 05:38 AM

Full of shits like you, Ledbury

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: GUEST,Ledbury
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 05:32 AM

No one can say they have never been racist at some point in their life. I was watching a black and white film made in England in the 1950's last week and yearned for those days again. I couldn't get an appointment with my dentist for six months. The receptionist said it was due to the influx of migrant workers in the town. All I want is my England back. You can't speak out because your called a racist by some scrounger or loafer. Our once wonderful nation is an open sewer.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 05:09 AM

What's racism?...I'm clear.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 04:54 AM

Thanks 'GUEST, Ifor' for supporting my economic theory of racism.

Following on from your point about the Atlantic Slave Trade, economics is probably at the heart of racism in the American Deep South, after the abolition of slavery there. Once African Americans living in the region could no longer be exploited through slavery they became potential competitors with 'European Americans'. It was in the economic interests of the latter to maintain the de-humanisation of the former in order to prevent them from sharing in the wealth of the region.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 08:25 PM

Skivee,

A noble and well made point, only that you are confusing the terms "race" and "species".

Inter species diversity exists between species while intra species diversity exists within a particular species.

Racial distinctions don't exist outside the human species, so they are a form of intra species diversity.

But as you point out, species may not cross breed wihout scientific intervention, (and if they do their offspring are sterile), whereas there is no barrier to procreation between different races.

We are all human.

And all different.

My daughter and I are apparently both white, but I have taught her to respect differences between people by showing her that her skin and mine are very different in colour.

When I hold may arm up against hers, she can see for herself that we are different. And I then point out to her that everyone is different to everyone else.

So she has no illusions of "them" and "us" - she has an idea of a world full of individual humaans with an equal right to exist and pursue happiness.

Next time you are in the company of another person of the same colour as you, put your hands next to theirs and observe the differences.

It is illuminating.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 06:26 PM

Yes, that's true, and very strange!

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 03:20 AM

You're quite right, but it's the perception that motivates people. Even the horrible example of the break up of Yugoslavia doesn't deter people from making micro- distinctions. Can you tell a Serb from a Croat? I can't- but they can, and might kill for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Skivee
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 02:03 PM

There are no "other races' of humans. There is only one living race of humans. There is no genetic reason that any member of any ethnic population can not reproduce with a member of another ethnic group. This fact is the defining item that makes a creature a member of one race.
It also means that all those racists ( nazis, clan members, extremist Jews, extremist muslims, extremist Hindus, extremist anybody, BNP, other idiot nationalists of your choice, white separatists, Black separatists, etal, who base their philosophy on the idea that those dirty foreign folks over there are not the same race as us) are full of crap.
There are many vaguely defined ethnic groups of humans, but ony ONE human race; and what a bunch of stupid monkeys we are.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 12:12 PM

"As to your final question Riginslinger, I have no answer other than - because they could..."


                   That's really, really sick.

                   I'll try to run down the book. Thanks!

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 10:29 AM

The 'credible source' for that quote is UCLA professor, Jared Diamond, an American evolutionary biologist, physiologist, biogeographer, lecturer and Pulitzer Prize-winning author of 'Guns, Germs, and Steel' (1998),
The information is from his 'In black and white' a chapter in Racism: A Global Reader
By Kevin Reilly, Stephen Kaufman, Angela Bodino

you can read further here pages 23-26 but it is painful and shaming reading.

As to your final question Riginslinger, I have no answer other than - because they could

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 09:13 AM

Emma B. - Does Runoko Rashidi document what he writes with credible sources? Why would people do things like that when there is nothing to be gained from it?

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: kendall
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 07:32 AM

If you can't dehumanize a person, you can not make them a slave or otherwise make him sub Human.

Ringslinger, old Russian proverb: "Is no should.Is only is"

There will always be ignorance.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 07:15 AM

As Dave says above there is an assumption that 'they are lower than us - it's ok for us to treat them badly'

Give any group of people a collective dehumanizing name and you have the basis for torture, genocide etc from early recorded history to Abu Ghraib.

Perhaps one of the most infamous is the treatment of the Tasmanian natives by European settlers and escaped convicts.

'As early as 1804 the British began to slaughter, kidnap and enslave the Black people of Tasmania. The colonial government itself was not even inclined to consider the aboriginal Tasmanians as full human beings, and scholars began to discuss civilization as a unilinear process with White people at the top and Black people at the bottom. To the Europeans of Tasmania the Blacks were an entity fit only to be exploited in the most sadistic of manners--a sadism that staggers the imagination and violates all human morality. As UCLA professor, Jared Diamond, recorded:

"Tactics for hunting down Tasmanians included riding out on horseback to shoot them, setting out steel traps to catch them, and putting out poison flour where they might find and eat it. Sheperds cut off the penis and testicles of aboriginal men, to watch the men run a few yards before dying. At a hill christened Mount Victory, settlers slaughtered 30 Tasmanians and threw their bodies over a cliff. One party of police killed 70 Tasmanians and dashed out the children's brains." '

from BLACK WAR
THE DESTRUCTION OF THE TASMANIAN ABORIGINES

By RUNOKO RASHIDI

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 06:56 AM

I don't think it is straight forward at all. There is the hate/fear thing which is very true but there are also the political manipulators who try to steer that masses from the real issues by blaming someone else. There is also the justification of past slavery and injustice going on (they are lower than us - it's ok for us to treat them badly) and blatant sensationalism by the gutter press. If I had all the answers I'd be a rich man and the world would be a better place but, as someone already said, eductaion must be a big part of it.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 09:59 PM

"Ignorance breeds fear, fear breeds hatred. It never ends."


                      It could end, of course, if you got rid of ignorance!

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 04:53 PM

Yes I think racism is rooted in economics.
In particular the slave trade which lasted for some 350 years involved the capture,forced transportation, enslavement,humiliation and oppression of many millions of black people on two continents.
These people were treated with the utmost barbarity...mass murder,thrown overboard,crowded into hell holes,separation of families and loved ones,torture,branding ,and much much more.
Those major powers like Britain and the USA that were up to their necks in the blood and gore of the slaves had to give some kind of justification for the slavery of millions and thus despite 1500 years of christianity systematic racism was unleashed to try to justify that which could not be justified.
Those who made millions out of the slave trade and the sweat of the slaves promulgated myths of racial inferiority and superiority,africans were declared to be less than human,they were good for nothing except beasts of burden etc.
Capitalism as Karl Marx wrote was born dripping out of the sweat,blood and gore of the african slaves whose labour in the New World was to build the foundations of our economic system.
It is interesting to note, as an afterthought, that when Marx was asked about his favourite historical character he answered immediately with the name of "Spartacus" the leader of the Roman slave rebellion.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: kendall
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 07:55 AM

Ignorance breeds fear, fear breeds hatred. It never ends.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:06 PM

Racism is a symptom of the human need to discriminate. We begin by discriminating sounds so that we can attain language. We learn to discriminate between colour, taste, touch, etc. This ability to discrimate serves many purposes.

Racism is a perversion of our innate ability to discriminate. This perversion has been fuelled by socio-economic-political forces to keep groups of people separated so that they do not become a united force. Racism serves no purpose except to divide.

Thats my two cents.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 09:55 PM

When the American Congress passed Affirmative Action Legislation, it seems as though they were onto the reality that in order to overcome racism, the races have to interact with each other.
                I think they were right, basically, but there are problems with affirmative action. It resulted in a system where, if you were going to reward one person, you had to take something away from somebody else.
                Their hearts were in the right place. Maybe it's something to build on.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 02:17 PM

Ignorance IS a major problem, but education will not overcome it easily. There are very well-educated folks who use supposed 'research' to support racist theories....and we have examples everyday of people just ignoring what they are taught & told in order to cling to some prejudice, superstition or cultural habit.

If education really solved things easily, we would not have astrology, palmistry, phrenology, Tarot, etc... (yes...and religion) coloring all aspects of life.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 02:02 PM

"Look at any example of racism in history and it tends to have an economic basis."

I think its the other way around.

Racists blame minorities for their own misfortune - for example when the economy is performing poorly.

But an educated person knows that eliminating a group of people will not fix a broken economy.

Because they know that economics is a much more complex science than that and that race issues are by and large irrelevant to an economy's succes or failure.

I return to ignorance being the root and education being the solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: kendall
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:24 PM

When I said, "All hatred is based in fear, I was not giving my personal opinion, but rather the collective wisdom of countless therapists and other shrinks.I just happen to think it makes sense.

When I said, "Nature loves uniformity, I was speaking of the rules inside any particular species." Not a general rule that applies across species. Chickens don't care if a rat acts funny, but if another chicken acts odd, it is not long for this world.This I have seen with my own eyes.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:16 PM

The more I look at the phenomenon of racism the more I come to understand that it has an economic basis. Although I have no doubt a certain degree of xenophobia is part of the human condition, I also believe that certain elites within societies have been, and still are, quite prepared to exploit and exacerbate this low level 'fear of strangers' for their own ends. What's worse, 'strangers' are often not really strangers at all but easily identifiable groups within societies who can be isolated and demonised.
A classic example is the Jews of Europe who were victimised for centuries. They tended to be, on average, economically more successful than their Christian neighbours so various Christian myths were invoked against them in order to steal their wealth. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries these myths transformed into the vile nonsense of "scientific racism" - which, of course, led to the Jews being robbed, dispossessed and murdered.

Look at any example of racism in history and it tends to have an economic basis.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Lox
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 05:50 AM

The solution to racism is education.

People who know that the reasons for economic and political uncertainty are complex and involve many factors of which race is one of the most insignificant, are less likely to be swayed by racist arguments and therefore less likely to blame a convenient scapegoat for their misfortunes.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 05:10 AM

Over many years there have been various waves of strangers entering the UK. At one time or another they all came in for some racist attitudes. For many that stopped within a couple of generations, when the children began speaking with a local accent, because they were white and thus less easy to identify as 'strangers'. It may be more difficult for a lot of the more recent immigrants - I know of one guy who was told to "go back where you came from" and replied "What? Go back to Tottenham?"

I found my racist core when, joking with my daughter and stepdaughter about the possibility of my daughter dating a black workmate, my stepdaughter said "Mmmm, brown babies!" That brought me up short and I really had to stop and think about why.

I think that it was a genetic thing - the idea of my own family's racial identity being subsumed by what appeared to be a more dominant one. Brown eyes instead of blue, brown skins instead if the pale, easily sunburned skin that my family tends toward. Dark curly hair replacing the straight light or blonde hair. Facial features that would not reflect my own genetic inheritance. It was a gut reaction that I have had to come to terms with and which, to a degree, still remains within my subconscious. I daresay that it will be there for life and there will be times when I will have to be aware of and counter it.

I now live as a 'foreigner', albeit one who is unidentifiable as such until I speak and, even then, my language is very similar to that of the indigenous population and my accent is enjoyed by most. To date I have had no problem with anyone questioning my place in my new society. Appearance does make a difference, it seems.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 02:54 AM

The problem seems to stem from our historical view of other races.
They were always looked upon as things to be exploited...in America as slaves and in the various empires as second class citizens.
We have never learned to appreciate other cultures, just to exploit them.

The reason of course was and still is our desire to become "rich and powerful", even at the expense of our brothers and sisters.

This attitude has also given birth to a reaction among the people subjected to racism or other forms of discrimination, which can be just as distructive.

I strongly disagree with "insane beard" when he/she states with such certainty that we "are not animals".

The human animal has constructed it's own mire, a thousand times more odious than the pig stye.............Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:12 AM

Ed - I would certainly think the intermingling of culture would work to reduce the severity of racism, but it still seems to me that keeping the eye on the ball would include some means of controlling total human numbers, world wide.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 09:41 PM

As to recism and more people moving around the world:

Does strong assimilation with the dominant nations culture, or a multi-culturalism approach that strengthens the culture of an imigrant work better to stem racisism?

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 09:36 PM

Yes..population is the 'keystone' issue..meaning that, no matter what we do with other problems...pollution, global warming, education, medicine, energy... if we do not limit population, conflicts and hunger and frustration over lack of 'space', (both personal and national), will continue & get worse.
   'Racism' is merely a side issue which could gradually ease if everyone felt like they had some control over the basics of food, shelter and 'identity'... meaning self-respect and such.

The human race in general cannot continue to push the limits of survival and keep competing for food, water, space and resources....when they feel they are not getting a 'fair share', racism and other fear-based responses will follow.

(and yeah...some will find ANY excuse...)

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 09:11 PM

"I'm afraid that, with expanding world population and international disputes being pursued with more & more complex weapons, it's gonna get worse...."


                      It seems to me like the most important key is to get a handle on expanding world population. That would lower the tone of hostility a whole bunch.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 08:11 PM

In barely a couple or 3 hundred years we humans have moved from a world where only a few people had much interaction with those of other cultures and ethnic groups, to a situation where people are moving about the world 'almost' at will, bringing language & cultural differences...and often, sudden changes in demographic patterns.

In ***ALL*** societies there are those who cannot adapt...for various reasons. Sometimes they have good reason...sometimes not. Groups like the BNP in the UK and the KKK,,etc., in the US, simply take a "we won't TRY to adapt & get along" attitude.

Hate & fear are easy...that's how we dealt with 'others' for many thousands of years.

I'm afraid that, with expanding world population and international disputes being pursued with more & more complex weapons, it's gonna get worse....

I see no one from the UN has contacted me for my suggestions....

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 07:50 PM

Racism, sexism, and religious intolerance are all seperate things but each may be a basis for discrimination. Both are learned from others (usually parents) at a young age. The tool is education of the young in a setting where races, sexes, and religions are mixed in a classroom where they learn to be friends from the beginning. There should be no tolerance for religious dogma or racism in education. Private schools based on either religious or cultural lines should be abolished. The children themselves will solve many of the worlds problems if their minds are not poisoned by adults, but after it happens the poison is almost impossible to remove.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:59 PM

It seems to me that there is more tension between religous groups than racial groups as well. In fact, it seems like a trend. Mankind seems to be making some headway with racism, while religious differences are taking up the slack.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:56 PM

Additionallym as Georgiansilver states, underneath the political is ofetn economics.   

Some folks that claim they are not racists, but are just realists and Observing real life experiences

An example: something negative happens involving one's own race (ie a crime). It is seen as just an act of an individual. However, when the same act involves a person from less favoured race, it not seen as an act of individual...but an indicator of the chacteristics of the "less favoured" race the person is from.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:37 PM

'scuse me, but I'm going to go listen to "South Pacific"...

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 05:35 PM

AMOS nailed it in the 11.03 post.
Mr Villan sir! Religious groups are often blamed for war but most wars surely are based on politics... religion is often used to mask the truth. I am not saying that many wars have not been fought on religious grounds but that there is an overexaggeration of their importance.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Lox
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 03:19 PM

I agree with Riginslinger,

We all possess the instinct to mistrust or feel fearful of those who look different, observe unfamiliar cultural practices or submit to unfamiliar religious teachings.

Just as it is natural to be curious about these differences, it is also natural to be a little afraid.

Increased familiarity decreases both curiosity and fear, to the point that young kids growing up in multicultural environments and going to multicultural schools (as I did) find their parents curiosity a bit boring, and aren't afraid.

Once you grow up however, regardless of your background, you make conscious choices as a mature intelligent adult.

And the fundamental choice is:

Either - listen to the instinct tht means you have an irrational fear of spiders, toothpicks, milk, homosexuals, other races ... etc ... etc ...

Or - consciously decide to discriminate on intelligent grounds.

Or in other words, like an evolved human being.

I understand that to discriminate on grounds of what clothes people wear, or how ugly or pretty they are, or how fat or thin they are, or what race they are, is irrational and is less likely to be of practical use to me than intelligent considered discrimination based on individual character. (character not characteristics)

I am also able to see out of my box and I understand that to discriminate on irrational grounds is not only impractical for me but it is also cruel and damaging to the lives of others who, as unfamiliar as they are, I credit with as much right to human rights as I have.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:03 PM

Is racism always based on skin colour?

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Rasener
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:53 PM

I personally think that the biggest problem that faces this world, is the religious groups, not the colour of anybodies skin. They all live in peace, but all go to war for their God or leader.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:30 PM

Directions are in the text, but, here it is more directly (I believe there are also other interesting tests at the site);

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/demo/takeatest.html

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:13 PM

Is there a link to the IAT test, or do we need to run it down?

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:09 PM

While we many reject racism in our concious minds, we may be impacted by racisism in our subconcious minds, where early life experiences and learned childhood messages are stored. Changing our subconcious beliefs (amny that impact our behavouur), is very difficult.

Try the racism IAT test mentioned in the aricle:
http://www.isnare.com/?aid=228626&ca=Society

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:03 PM

It's easy to answer. The cultural history of the US starting with Native Americans.
The economic problems of pre-Civil War South and the cotton industry.
Old ideas die hard.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 12:39 PM

Culture, education and civilization are the tools that man deals with unfounded fears... But those tools are not exclusive because without experience thay are all external... It's only thru experience that those external stimuli become internalized... It's no wonder that since desegregation of schools that we see more and more mixed racial marriages between people who were privildged to be educated in such schools...

Now, if we could do a better job with housing and even the last tenant, the churches, we could really make some serious progress...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 12:35 PM

It could start with something as simple as rooting for your brother in a football game. And if your brother isn't playing, you root for your nephew, or your cousin's nephew, or the home town boy, of somebody from your state, or...
               And the futher you get from your immediate clan, the less enthusiastic you are, until you get far enough away that people don't even look like you anymore, and make you nervous.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:33 AM

I suspect it's a quite complex matter. It's probably a built-in human instinct to defend a territory. Humans are social animals, and when the population was small, you would know all the members of your group, so members of other groups would be easy to identify. But, at the same time, to exclude foreign groups would be a recipe for disaster- inbreeding would render the group very ill within a few generations. So you end up with loose coalitions of kin- groups, which interact in more-or-less ritualised ways.

As population grows, the probability of encroaching on each other's territory grows, and developing over the millennia we find situatiions like New Guinea, where there was no possibility of spreading out, so tribes (extended kin- groups)were in a state of permanent, ritualised war.

In modern society, there's no natural tribe- most people don't even know the occupants of next-door-but three except perhaps by sight. But with the instinct still in place, they have a need to categorise people into Fella-Him-Belong and the Stranger Man. It's understandable, if not defensible- the instinct is now pretty well useless, and almost anything that can be discerned as a difference can be used- language or accent, dress, hairstyle (especially facial), skin colour, habits, superstitions and customs.

No Welshmen in the city after dark, no kilts or bagpipes, no Jews in the golf club... there's nothing new about it. It makes an easy appeal for unscrupulous politicians, and the disaffected are always on the lookout for somebody to blame for their woes. It's no coincidence that the BNP has its greatest success in areas of declining traditional indutry like Stoke on Trent and East Derbyshire - people there have a lot to be resentful about. The actual culprits- government and global money jugglers- are too remote to be real to people of limited vision, and its all too easy for them to take out their grudges on visible targets.

In Britain, the real failure has been in government- particularly in the Labour Party, which has been happy to allow their voter base to blame illegal immigrants (code phrase for "wogs") and bogus asylum seekers (code word for "nig-nogs") for problems, while getting their own feet comfortably under the polished directors' tables.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Stu
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:05 AM

Shine on - that BNP site was sobering reading.

What a bunch of complete wankers.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Amos
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:03 AM

Humans have a deep need to make others wrong in order to feel right about themselves. Race provides an easy way to do this.

Those who are the most afraid of their own "wrongness" will be the most assertive about finding those faults in others they most detest in themselves.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:50 AM

PS - We're also individuals; truly citizens of but two places - the first being our own skins (whatever the colour) and the second being any point the planet which gives us the necessary atmospheric pressure to maintain our integrity (pressurised suits notwithstanding).

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:43 AM

You would think man is above that, but alas, we are also animals.

If we were animals we'd still be slobbering in the mire. And it's a fine line between reason and excuse, however so motivated in terms of such cynical pessimism regarding the human condition, perilous as it may be. However, this sort of thing is by no means typical, nor yet even inevitable; I'd say it was as anomalous and remarkable as it is absolutely appalling - certainly to most of us, who would only wish to contextualise such an obvious tragedy, in every sense, within the overall condition of racism in the UK.

If nature loved uniformity there would be no diversity; the point and purpose of life is accommodation in all things, and as cultural and cognitive beings (the very reasons we are most certainly not animals) then we must strive ever more resolutely to that end.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:25 AM

I agree that everyone has some version of racism. The more you know this the more enlightened your choices become.

Those on the fringes calim they are devout racisits or that they are utterly racist free.


As for the manslaughter case, it is quite similar to wife abuse cases that end in the murder of the abuser.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:20 AM

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6544076


                  The link above will take you to an NPR interview that aired last week. It's about a professor who did a study that proves we are all racists in the core of our being. Some hide it better than others, but everyone has it, and Michael Shermer thinks he can prove it.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:20 AM

Here's WikiP's definition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: kendall
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:13 AM

The basis of all hatred is fear.
Nature loves uniformity, and if any animal in a group of its own kind starts acting odd, the others will shun and even kill it.

You would think man is above that, but alas, we are also animals.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:11 AM

I would be happy to explain my social immune system and genetic tribal roots of racism theory,
But some of you would stab me in the back and cry racism.

(sort of kidding)

Subject: BS: Racism: Why?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:06 AM

After hearing this storyhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/staffordshire/7409097.stm
on the news at the w/end, it occured to me that I, [& maybe others] don't know/understand why some people are so intent on furthering the 'white supremacy' cause & behave in a totally unacceptable way towards foreigners, particularly those with different skin tones and cultures.


Here's aversion a version of the same story from BNPhttp://www.bnp.org.uk/index.php?s=stoke

Compare & contrast, if you will