Moral or Ethical Question:BS

Subject: RE: Moral or Ethical Question:BS
From: Peter T.
Date: 05 Jul 99 - 09:32 AM

Amen, Barry. I read a recent study that said there were 15 million gambling-aholics in the U.S. and almost a million in Canada. I was intrigued by your remark that this stuff does better when the economy is bad. I wonder if that is true, now. Lotteries and casinos seem to be everywhere. There is some dark relationship between games of chance and the whole free market ethos -- this sense that there is a large invisible hand with its hands on the dice. Who knows why the stock market works, why Joe's Internet company makes millions, while Fred's fails. The ethos says that it is hard work, but everyone knows that there is luck involved. It is this shifting back and forward over the line of control over your life and lack of control that must make people go for the lottery. Like touching a bad tooth with your tongue. Or something. But having the government peddle it stinks anyway.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Moral or Ethical Question:BS
From: Barry Finn
Date: 05 Jul 99 - 12:03 AM

Peter T, I more than agree with your view that it's goverment on horse back selling drugs. My view comes from a slightly different angle. My father made his living & raised our family from the money he collected from people that were trying to buy a dream (similar to drugs). Few ever made a cent from the gamble most just kept on losing, going after the little scraps them had them forever coming back. During the depression the penny (I leave out the real name) pool was going strong in Harlem, the more desperate & poorer the neighborhoods the higher the the amount in the pool. The odds were & are still aways stacked against the dreamer but not enough to turn them off. Dutch Shultz (sp?) found this Harlem pool took it over & streamlined it so it could be mass distrubuted, stakes could go up & crime families, under Dutch's tutelage, knew how to fix the results to maximize profits. So it was criminal then but not now. In the 60's gaming was legal if the bookie had a stamp & paid taxes on it, later on this was overturned & it all became a crime again just about the time when lotteries started (something's begining to stink). Lotteries & bookies all do best when the economy is sinking or sunk, the same time as the demands for drugs increases (there's a dreamy connection here). My father always told me that those that played/paid for the food on our table were fools, so I grew up with a strong distaste for the addiction. I also watched him lose his money every Friday night before he'd reach home, alot like the dealer that sells drugs to keep up the habbit. The very least that the government could do with some of the take is to set up a gamblers annon. program to help those that they've preyed upon but why admit to a problem. Gambling was a criminal enterprise when it served the criminals unless it could be taxed, just because it's in different hands is it less criminal or more moral to prey on the dreams & weaknesses of those that can't pass a game of chance. They're are many that only play here & there, your once & awhilers, in the drug trade they were called chippers (you'd chip away to get at their earnings/savings), they weren't addicted to it, it's only a plain game of fun & chance. The chippers kept a steady flow when there's enough of them & they lent a more respectable picture to the game not to mention the support. Sorry it's so long but not sorry to have carried on, I came up poor & it's the poor that supports & gets taken the worst in the games & I hate to see it. All bets are off, Barry

Subject: RE: Moral or Ethical Question:BS
From: bbc
Date: 04 Jul 99 - 10:49 PM

anna,

I'm w/ Skarpi & Jeri. If you start compromising when the stakes are high, eventually you will end up compromising over small issues, too. Your integrity is always more important than money.

bbc

Subject: RE: Moral or Ethical Question:BS
From: campfire
Date: 04 Jul 99 - 05:34 PM

I have a TRUE lottery story -

When I was married, my husband played using our birthdates as the numbers (and his mother's, to make six numbers). About a year after our divorce, and after he was already involved with the woman who is now his wife, he was still playing, and still using the same numbers.

He called me and happened to mention that he had won about $100 using those old lottery picks. He had matched FOUR of the six numbers, his and his mom's birthdates. The numbers that did NOT come up were my birthdates. The missing numbers, that would have given him about $250,000 - the new girlfriend's birthdates!

campfire

Subject: RE: Moral or Ethical Question:BS
From: annamill
Date: 04 Jul 99 - 11:05 AM

Hello, good morning,

Interesting, varied response. Harpgirl, it wasn't his ticket money, I put out the dollar (big deal), and there wasn't a choice of "let him buy his own ticket" because he was in New Jersey and I was in New York. I was doing him a favor. The whole moral question occurred to me after I had bought the ticket already.

I think I am being honest with myself when I say I would keep the money. We'd all like to think we have a basic moral, ethical view of life. If I saw someone drop a fat wallet or a piece of jewelery, I'd definitely return it. In fact I have done just that. I would go out of my way and face heavy inconvience to help a friend who needed me. I think of myself as a good person.

My ex and I had this argument. He said the man was a friend and he couldn't do that to a friend. Morally and ethically he's right, I guess...

But $22 million dollars. I guess I can be bought, just a matter of price. Oh, well. I'll never be faced with the delema I guess.

It's easy to say what you would do in a certain situation, but if it really presented itself, how can you be sure? Maybe I would actually give him the ticket.......... NAAAH!!

Love, annap

Subject: RE: Moral or Ethical Question:BS
From: Peter T.
Date: 04 Jul 99 - 11:00 AM

The real moral/ethical question is what the hell the state is doing in the business of lotteries. There is a place in the world for lotteries, regulated, probably, but we are now in a situation where poor people, wretchedly poor people who I see every day, are lining up to use what little extra money they have (and often not extra money) to buy lottery tickets, which are being advertised by governments and which they are using to supplement their revenues. This is a terrible scourge in many people's lives -- ruining families, etc. It is deeply regressive taxation at its worst -- it is with horror and shame that I point out that leftist governments have been as eager to get into this vicious business as any other kind of government. It is completely, utterly hateful: government drug peddling -- little trivial wins to keep you hooked, playing off people's dreams of hope and loss of control over their lives (which makes them susceptible to games of chance). Sophisticated advertising that you wouldn't allow for alcohol or cigarettes anymore. Vicious, horrible, criminal.
(Sorry, I'll stop now. It really makes me mad!!!!!).
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Moral or Ethical Question:BS
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Jul 99 - 01:09 AM

OK, annap, I guess you want a serious answer, huh? I think I'd wait and not make a decision until the situation happened and I weighed all the factors - I'd use fairness and giving the other person the benefit of the doubt as my principles.
However, I think it's far better to do things to avoid conflicts like this. If you're in a conflict, it doesn't really matter who's morally right - somebody's going to get hurt, and a relationship is going to be damaged. Better to use the judgment needed to avoid the situation in the first place - I think that's the morally correct thing to do. Let him get his own dang tickets, or have an agreement in place ahead of time and stick to that agreement.
However, if I agreed to buy somebody a lottery ticket with specific numbers and I didn't buy one with the same numbers myself, I guess I'd feel bound to give the other person all the money, and let that person decide whether to give me a cut. If you're in a community-property relationship where you're sharing assets with this person, then the split would be 50-50. Like I say, there are lots of variables involved, and it's probably best to avoid conflicts.
-Joe Offer, who'd still like to have that party-

Subject: RE: Moral or Ethical Question:BS
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Jul 99 - 12:27 AM

I'd probably split it or at least give him a couple mil, then I'd buy all of my family the homes they need/want; give a bunch to my kids, and tell Rog to quit his job; set up a charitable foundation for creative people like us and watch them blossom:-) Oh, I'd also fund some sort of home for pets of terminal patients; can't stand the thought of all those pets losing their masters/mistresses AND their homes.

katlaughing

Subject: RE: Moral or Ethical Question:BS
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Jul 99 - 10:10 PM

If I agreed to buy him the ticket, then that's what I did, regardless of whether or not it won. I might have tried asking for a 10% fee for the service, though.

Subject: RE: Moral or Ethical Question:BS
From: harpgirl
Date: 03 Jul 99 - 09:52 PM

...since I am in a very feisty mood tonight over a dispute about the "rules" or our monthly Irish session (but that's another thread)my first response was I'd keep it all, a man that stupid would be dangerous with a large amount of money. Upon reflection I then decided that since it was his ticket money and he chose the number, he should be the recipient of all the money. A fee for the karma of doing his bidding might be reasonably extracted, but any legal wrangling would be too distasteful to me and I would refuse to participate if it went to lawyers for a decision. If I were to win such a large amount of money if I decided to take it (I'm not sure I would) I might set it up a charitable foundation and become it's administrator like the guy in "Testament." The notion of devoting more of my life to good works is a very attractive one and I've lately fantasized about a life of full devotion to good works...when my son leaves home. I too, am very content with just enough money to pay the bills, take some small trips and buy an instrument when I wish. I am already very very lucky to be able to support my family in such style, I think. harp

Subject: RE: Moral or Ethical Question:BS
From:
Date: 03 Jul 99 - 09:31 PM

I often think of the things Bill Gates could do with his money. I suppose that it is easy to say, never having been in that position. But he could easily shave off five or six billion and never miss it. Think of the fun an eccentric philanthropist could have with that kind of coin! (Mr. Rosewater, where are you?)

Subject: RE: Moral or Ethical Question:BS
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 03 Jul 99 - 07:19 PM

Going to have to go around in a circle a bit for this one.
As you know, I love buying old instruments. If I were able to afford everything I drooled over, the special little thrill I get would be gone instantly. I love books and old records as well and someday may find a Dickens' first edition that I can afford (maybe 500 max). If I were rich, I could have it on my doorstep by tonight. End of thrill.
Sure I'd love to be like John Beresford Tipton on the old "Millionaire" TV show, but I've read about people who tried to give it away, and EVERYONE OF THEM was involved with lawyers, trust funds, and in general the corporate world as fast as they could turn around. I already see greed and hypocracy in abundance, can you imagine how surrounded by it you'd be if you were that rich?
I'm not a monk, so I wouldn't turn down a couple of hundred thou. BUT any more than that? NO Thank You.
rick (poor but happy)

Subject: RE: Moral or Ethical Question:BS
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Jul 99 - 07:02 PM

Sean..eaxctly!! I simply would NOT do it unless I could I get rid of the tickets before the drawing..having winning tickets in my hand would strain my senses too much...In that vein..I bought once a birthday card I was gonna give a friend..it said on the front.."If this proves to be your favorite birthday of all time....remember who gave it to you!"....and inside was a place to stick a lottery ticket...I simply could NOT do it..I still have the card...

Once, I sold some old baseball cards to a guy...let him decide on a fair price...he paid me $ 384....today they are worth about $20,000+...he didnt cheat me, but he didn't hint how special they were either...the only real windfall I ever came close to, and I blew it...gonna keep my lottery tickets to myself...*smile*

Subject: RE: Moral or Ethical Question:BS
From: SeanM
Date: 03 Jul 99 - 06:32 PM

Coming from a position where there's a theoretic chance of this happening, I make sure the chance never even arrives. I buy tickets for myself and others for the California lottery, and one of the first things I do is make sure that EVERYONE has their tickets before the drawing.
It's not that I don't trust myself, it's just that I don't want to get into that situation. Much as discretion is the better part of valor, cowardice is sometimes the better part of discretion, and I don't want to be put in to that difficult of a situation.

M

Subject: RE: Moral or Ethical Question:BS
From: WyoWoman
Date: 03 Jul 99 - 06:14 PM

I don't like money, but it quiets my nerves.

(But seriously, folks -- I'd split it with the guy if I liked him. If he was a demonstrable butthead, I'd give him some portion of it, just so I wouldn't feel like a slimeball. Then I'd take the money and do good works with it, like a huge festival for the Mudcateers, see Joe Offer above.)

KC

Subject: RE: Moral or Ethical Question:BS
From: annamill
Date: 03 Jul 99 - 06:03 PM

Joe, do you think it would be morally or ethically wrong to keep the money? Do you feel it would be stealing? We are talking about $22 million dollars here. Think of all the good you could do with that money. We could hire Dick for The Mudcat.

annap

Subject: RE: Moral or Ethical Question:BS
From: Helen
Date: 03 Jul 99 - 06:02 PM

Hi all,

I'm going through a bit of a turnaround in my views about having money. Someone suggested to me that if we have a huge amount of money we can direct it to where we want it to go in life, e.g for worthwhile social causes, or to put on folk festivals or start up a music venue for all different types of music to counteract blatant commercialism, or to help out the local school, or help research into aids, or whatever your real inner needs reflect.

When I think about people like Kerry Packer, a media magnate in Oz, (probably small fry on the international money stakes, but huge by comparison over here) who has multi-million dollar houses, cars, boats, etc etc and the only time I have heard of him doing anything for others was when he bought a U-beaut (contraction of Oz saying "you little beauty!" e.g. the best of something, or what you say if your horse comes in at great odds, i.e. a congratulatory remark) heart resuscitation machine for mobile intensive care units.

He only bought it because he nearly lost his life with a heart attack and one of those machines would have definitely made a difference to the procedures. He only bought one, as far as I know, for his local ambulance/hospital service, rather than one for each service in the state or the country - even though the cost would have peanuts compared to what he earns.

So, if its a choice between someone having the money who will spend it only on selfish wants, and someone like me having the money and using it with a social conscience, then I'd rather it came to someone like me. It's a matter of some contribution to control over the state of the world.

My 2c worth. (If I invest my 2c how long will it take to grow into a million dollars?)

Helen

Subject: RE: Moral or Ethical Question:BS
From: annamill
Date: 03 Jul 99 - 05:58 PM

I applaud you skarpi! You have happiness and a wonderful attitude. Your love and gentleness shines through all your postings. I wish we could meet.

Love,anna

Subject: RE: Moral or Ethical Question:BS
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 03 Jul 99 - 05:46 PM

Amen, Skarpi!!

Subject: RE: Moral or Ethical Question:BS
From: skarpi
Date: 03 Jul 99 - 05:46 PM

and the Mudcat...ters

skarpi Iceland

Subject: RE: Moral or Ethical Question:BS
From: skarpi
Date: 03 Jul 99 - 05:42 PM

Dear annap, To some money is not everything in this live so If that would be me , I would give him all the money. Why, becouse I think that someone who gets so much money just freek out, or most of them.

I am not a rich man of money, I am a rich man to have the three children I have, I got a home, a family. a food for my children and a work, and we are healthy and that is about all I need.

all the best skarpi Iceland.

Subject: RE: Moral or Ethical Question:BS
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Jul 99 - 05:40 PM

Anna, you should take us all out to dinner, and then we'll all sing the night away. Forget about ethics and morals. We could really have a great time...
-Joe Offer-

....er, did I happen to mention I had 8 years of seminary training and a degree in Theology???

Subject: RE: Moral or Ethical Question:BS
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 03 Jul 99 - 05:33 PM

Wasn't there a movie about this? --seed

Subject: Moral or Ethical Question:BS
From: annamill
Date: 03 Jul 99 - 05:24 PM

Speaking of morals and ethics and about a young woman who won 78 (count 'em) million dollars, something happened a while back to me and I wondered what other people would do under the circumstances. Ready..

I'm sitting at work in NY one day and my Ex (wasn't my ex yet) calls and tells me to buy $1 (two numbers) on the then $22 million dollar NY lottery. The drawings are on Wed. and Sat. This was Friday. He tells me the numbers to use for the drawing.

So, I go downstairs to buy the tickets and a few for myself and used my money. It didn't happen, but what if..

His numbers came out!!

Now, here I am with a $22 million dollar ticket in my hand that I paid for. What do you do? That's the question. I know what I would do. I'd turn in the ticket and give him a couple of million and keep the rest.

You have no idea what arguments this has caused when I ask it at parties or social engagements. Worse than guns, politics or religion ever did.

What do you think you would do? It's easy to be altruistic when it's only a game, but if it really happened..

LOVE, annap