Origins: The Gest of Robyn Hode [Child 117]

Subject: RE: Origins: The Gest of Robyn Hode [Child 117]
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Aug 26 - 01:16 AM

well done Bob

Subject: RE: Origins: The Gest of Robyn Hode [Child 117]
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 06 Aug 26 - 08:54 PM

Lighter wrote: I can deduce from personal experience just how much sickening labor Bob put into this project, for which we should be grateful.

Thank you.

The real problem was the typefaces they used back then -- mostly Textura types, which are extremely narrow compared to their height. It's like trying to read a line of poplar trees. We all owe Nicolas Jenson an incredible debt for inventing Roman type.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Gest of Robyn Hode [Child 117]
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Aug 26 - 08:40 PM

I can deduce from personal experience just how much sickening labor Bob put into this project, for which we should be grateful.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Gest of Robyn Hode [Child 117]
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 06 Aug 26 - 07:28 PM

Bill D wrote: wouldn't sit thru it even if Jean Redpath was singing it.

Neither would I, were it done all at once. :-) But there is a good chance that it was done in about three parts. The opening line of the "Gest" begins (modern spelling) "Lythe and listen, gentlemen" -- basically, "Siddown and listen, guys." Variations on this formula occur three more times in the "Gest." It is widely believed that the "Gest" has three built-in stopping points, about fifteen to twenty minutes apart, so there are breaks (I'm almost tempted to say commercial breaks) built in. That lets the performer rest his voice -- and, perhaps, lets the next course of the meal be brought in, or something like that. It probably wasn't intended to be performed in one seventy to ninety minute recital, any more than Homer was intended to be heard in one sitting.

There have been a number of "retellings" of the "Gest" over the years, mostly in prose, mostly as part of a Robin Hood rewrite. I will agree that putting it into modern English doesn't work very well. It's like Chaucer: on the face of it, you don't have to change it much. But the life somehow goes out of it when you try. The "Gest" is a pretty good romance -- not a great one; it's certainly not Chaucer. But there are roughly eighty Middle English metrical romances. The "Gest" is clearly inferior to Chaucer's Big Three (the Franklin's Tale, the Wife of Bath's Tale, and the Knight's Tale), to "Sir Gawain and the Grene Knight," and to "Sir Orfeo." Probably to "The Marriage of Sir Gawain and Dame Ragnall," too, if we had all of it. Maybe one or two others. But it's better than at least 75% of those eighty romances.

The thing is, we don't like any Middle English romances any more, except Chaucer -- not even "Sir Gawain and the Grene Knight," which is basically incomprehensible unless translated. If you know the language, the "Gest" is often deeply emotional (the Knight is in deep distress through little fault of his own), occasionally funny (Will Scathelock and Much the Miller's Son often seem to be there for comic relief), an interesting commentary on medieval politics (the King scares the people of Nottingham half to death and laughs about it), and inviting (you'd really like to be able to visit Robin "under his trystell-tree"). But we aren't medieval.

The funny thing is, we still love romances -- the two most popular books/series of the modern era, The Lord of the Rings and the Harry Potter books, are romances. In fact, Tolkien was deliberately trying to revive the medieval romance. But those are modern medieval romances. :-)

I am impressed the effort in scholarship to collate the early versions.

It's the modern rule. Everything is to be collated three times. It's not easy on the eyes, but it did let me correct a few errors in Child's transcriptions.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Gest of Robyn Hode [Child 117]
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Aug 26 - 05:22 PM

Bob Frank took the trouble to sing it, as did Raymond Crooke:(who simply had a project to record every one.) The results are interesting.
   I wouldn't sit thru it even if Jean Redpath was singing it.
I am impressed the effort in scholarship to collate the early versions.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Gest of Robyn Hode [Child 117]
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 26 - 04:54 PM

It is not positive to assume a society that promotes Robin Hood, would not be interested in the song. What factual asSertions have i made?
"the modern castrated version might well be of interest to the robin hood society" is not a factual Assertion.
my point, is with a little editing and alteration the song may be of interest to singers
quote from you . But the people Quinn recruited will be doing a modernized text (and probably shortened). Possibly based on my modernized version, but it will be a sung version.

SEEMS LIKE WE ARE IN AGREEMENT

Subject: RE: Origins: The Gest of Robyn Hode [Child 117]
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 06 Aug 26 - 04:28 PM

The Sandman wrote: Gest of Robyn Hode (also known as A Lyttell Geste of Robyn Hode) is one of the earliest surviving texts of the Robin Hood tales. Written in late Middle English poetic verse, it is an early example of an English language ballad, in which the verses are grouped in quatrains with an ABCB rhyme scheme, also known as ballad stanzas.

You are correct that the Gest is in in ballad meter -- 4343-foot metrical rhyming xaxa or seven-foot couplets rhyming aa with a caesura in each line.

However, the verses are not "grouped in quatrains." They are not grouped as anything. That was an innovation by Ritson, copied by Child, but it has no justification. If you had looked at the printed copies -- and I have looked at photos of all seven copies known to Child, and collated all of them beginning to end multiple times -- every one of them is printed with no separations between couplets. No stanza divisions; one long continuous piece of poetry. One of them, in fact, prints the first several stanzas as prose.

If you don't believe me, there are photographs of most of the prints available from the Early English Books Online service. Child's primary source (the one he cited as "a", the "Lettersnijder" edition) is photoreproduced in The Chepman and Myllar Prints, Edinburgh: Edinburgh Bibliographical Society, 1950 (the "Gest" was not printed by Chepman and Myllar, but it was bound with a bunch of things they printed.)

Many Middle English romances use the ballad stanza. Not the most famous, to be sure (Chaucer's romances and "Sir Gawain and the Grene Knight"). The most common metrical romance format is tail rhyme -- a six or twelve line stanza. But many romances, including the well-known "Sir Orfeo," are in couplets.

There is a significant relationship between romances and ballads. A surprising number of ballads are cut-down versions of romances -- since I cited "Sir Orfeo," Child #19 is "King Orfeo," a cut-down of the Orfeo story. Other Child Ballads with romance analogues include "Hind Horn" (Child #17), "The Marriage of Sir Gawain" (Child #31), "King Edward the Fourth and a Tanner of Tamworth" (Child #273), and "Blanchefleur and Jellyflorice" (Child #300). All of these can be looked up in the Traditional Ballad Index, or in my book Romancing the Ballad. There are quite a few other romances that have folk song equivalents that are not in Child. If you examine the Percy Folio, very many of its pieces are romances cut down to (long) ballad length.

As an example of the latter we might take "The Squire of Low Degree." The full-blown romance version was printed by Robert Copland (a former apprentice to Wynken de Worde who printed the "Gest"; it is 1132 lines. The Percy Folio has a version which is... 170 lines. For an edition that shows just what was done, see William Edward Mead, The Squire of Low Degree: A Middle English Metrical Romance, Boston: Ginn and Company, 1904.

So it is true that there is no hard and fast distinction between ballad and romance. But I think every scholar would agree that a poem of 1000+ lines (the "Gest" is more than 1800) would be considered by default a romance.

Furthermore, of the four copies of the "Gest" that have either a cover page or a colophon, not one gives any indication the "Gest" is to be sung -- no tune indication, e.g. They don't say "to a pleasant new tune," or "to its own tune," or "to the tune of." No tune indication. None.

The printer of the most important complete copy, Wynken de Worde, was not a printer of songs.

Furthermore, it is generally considered characteristic of ballads to tell a single story. It is typical of romances to bring in incident after incident -- think of Malory's Morte d'Arthur. The "Gest" is a piling-on of incidents: Robin helping a knight. Little John taking service with the sheriff and meeting his match in a cook, then tricking the sheriff into being captured by Robin. The Sheriff trying to capture Robin at an archery contest. Robin seeking pardon from the king. Robin being killed by the Prioress of Kirklees.

Two of those incidents have ballad parallels -- the story of Little John and the Cook is a variation on the "Robin Hood Meets His Match" type exemplified by "Robin Hood and the Potter," and Robin's death is told in much longer form in "Robin Hood's Death." Thus there is a relationship, of sorts, between the "Gest" and actual ballads -- but the relationship is that ballads take only small parts of the tale of the "Gest" and tell them in full.

The "Gest" is a romance.

I note the irony of someone who has self-evidently not looked at any of the printed copies -- who certainly hasn't spend years doing it -- and still claims to be making factual assertions, talking about being "positive."

Subject: RE: Origins: The Gest of Robyn Hode [Child 117]
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 26 - 03:41 PM

the song does not have to be sung in its entirety, castrate it a bit, and then send it to the robin hod society, nottinghamise it, rewrite it even, that sort of thing Bert did, improve it. make it more singable for the 21st century, the modern castrated version might well be of interest to the robin hood society

Subject: RE: Origins: The Gest of Robyn Hode [Child 117]
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 26 - 03:31 PM

Gest of Robyn Hode (also known as A Lyttell Geste of Robyn Hode) is one of the earliest surviving texts of the Robin Hood tales. Written in late Middle English poetic verse, it is an early example of an English language ballad, in which the verses are grouped in quatrains with an ABCB rhyme scheme, also known as ballad stanzas.
It is a ballad.
The song is many centuries old, it dates from a time when long songs were sung. however neither you nor I HAVE PROOF THAT IT WAS OR WAS NOT SUNG IN ITS ENTIRETY.
However, that does not mean that the robin hood society,might not want to sing in its entirety., or mihgt want to sing a
The robin hood society are free to change the words, to nottinghamise it, that is what traditional music is about, bring the music to life instead of it being a museum piece. rock it up a bit, skiffle it
did you hear bill oddies version of ilkley moor bah tat?
be positive. your whole post is negative

Subject: RE: Origins: The Gest of Robyn Hode [Child 117]
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 06 Aug 26 - 01:55 PM

The Sandman wrote: The World Wide Robin Hood Society is a Nottingham-based internet group founded in 1998 that promotes the legend of Robin Hood, it is possible that its members might want to sing it, have you tried contacting them

It is unlikely that it was intended to be sung in its entirety -- it's a romance, not a ballad, and those were usually recited (perhaps with a harp or lute or something for sound effects). I tried to figure out the "most likely" tune -- the best guess I came up with is that, if the tune survives, it is a tune that was collected for "Robin Hood and the Curtal Friar" -- but I think there is no more than a 5% chance that that's the tune. It's just that anything else is even less likely.

In fact Matt Quinn has recruited eight people to sing it for the "In the Roud" podcast, setting their own tunes. There is also some guy who recorded a version on YouTube. But the people Quinn recruited will be doing a modernized text (and probably shortened). Possibly based on my modernized version, but it will be a sung version.

But I'll be honest: It's a lot better if you understand Middle English. I'm not sure it would benefit from being sung today.

And besides, any group based in Nottingham will probably object to a Robin Hood tale based in Yorkshire. :-p Which is where the "Gest," and most of the early Robin Hood ballads, are based: In Barnsdale Forest, in Yorkshire, in the time of one of the Three Edwards, probably (in the case of the "Gest" at least) in the reign of Edward II.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Gest of Robyn Hode [Child 117]
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 26 - 01:45 PM

The World Wide Robin Hood Society is a Nottingham-based internet group founded in 1998 that promotes the legend of Robin Hood,
it is possible that its members might want to sing it, have you tried contacting them

Subject: Origins: The Gest of Robyn Hode [Child 117]
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 06 Aug 26 - 12:21 PM

Mudcatters --

This probably won't be of much interest to most of you, since few of you will want to sing "The Gest of Robyn Hode." Certainly I wouldn't want to have to mumble my way through 456 (actually 458) stanzas!

On the other hand, if you want to learn about the single most important piece of evidence for the Robin Hood legend, and get a window into the legend's form in the fifteenth century (before first Anthony Munday and the Joseph Ritson got their grubby mitts on it), there is no better source than the "Gest."

The first serious edition of the "Gest" was Child's, and every ibe since his time has been largely based on his. But Child worked from (slightly) inaccurate transcripts, and there was one important piece of evidence that hadn't come to light in his time. So I've gone back to photographs of the sources (printed copies, not field collections), and re-edited it. I've also added textual notes and commentary.

I'll also be talking about the "Gest" on an episode of Matt Quinn's "In the Roud" podcast at the end of August. I couldn't take listener questions there, but if anyone has them, I'll try to answer here.

Here's the link (to my PDF, not to "In the Roud"): https://balladindex.org/BalladIndexLibrary/GestBook2026.pdf

Here's what I said about it to the Ballad-L list:

I don't expect any of you to read 350,000 words! But there are a number of noteworthy points about this book. First off, it is the first edition of the since Child to be done entirely from scratch. Second, it is the only text EVER to be done directly and entirely based on the photographs of the prints -- Child had transcriptions of his sources, but he hadn't himself collated them, and his transcriptions, while pretty good, had a few errors in them.

I also have a complete textual commentary, and an even more complete set of annotations (about 150 pages). There is also a complete glossary, and a version made into modern English. There is also a source analysis that, I think, adds some new ideas to an old discussion.

Probably of greater interest to folks here, I think I've managed a new perspective on the question of whether there was a "real" Robin Hood, and whether the "Gest" is a biography of this "real" person. The answer is, of course, no, Robin (as portrayed in our extant sources, at least) was not real, so there can be no biography of him!

But there is such a thing as historical fiction, which is what I think the "Gest," or at least the last two of its eight fits, was likely intended to be. We don't have to believe in Robin Hood, but the author of parts of the "Gest" very possibly did, and put together a story about him.

This story was set in the era of one of the Three Edwards (Edward I, Edward II, Edward III), probably Edward II. So there is also discussion of how this relatively coherent story of the Edwardian era was turned into the modern story you hear set in the era of Richard the Lion-hearted-and-Pea-Brained. Also some discussion of the relationship to the rest of the Robin Hood legend. And a whole bunch of other side sources.

In other words, a typically Robert Waltz-ian overblown production. Which is why it's a PDF, because no one would ever pay to read the thing!

Probably not many here will want to read the discussion, e.g., of how I established the text. But I think anyone interested in the Robin Hood corpus will find at least some parts interesting. David Engle's Foreword and my preface (which, combined, are only six pages) might give you some help with that.

And if any of you have questions that I can try to address, let me know!