BS: US Electoral History

Subject: RE: BS: US Electoral History
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 15 Nov 00 - 07:23 PM

The Garreau book sounds very interesting--I found it interesting, as noted above, that Florida was involved in the Hayes/Tilden affair, and have thought, more than once in this election that the Civil War never ended--

Here in liberal Maryland, the Bush/Cheney yard signs were always near-billboard sized affairs, mounted on elaborate frames in front yards, with the same defiance that one associates with the flying of the Confederate flag--and with much the same effect--

On the day after election day, my stomach was tied in knots, and went for a drive, ending up walking around the Battlefield at Monocacy Creek, reading the plaque marking General Lee's Headquarters (I shared the experience with some somber Virginians with a B/C sticker on their bumper--we did not talk) and it--it struck me that the issues are still the same, the boundaries are still the same, and the level of anger is still the same--and I remembered how Americans couldn't believe that Serbs still were upset about a battle lost in the fourteenth century--but our national dispute was a century old when the civil war was fought--no sign of a truce yet--

Subject: RE: BS: US Electoral History
From: mousethief
Date: 15 Nov 00 - 05:35 PM

I have a hard time believing that 200 years from now the OJ trial will be seen as more important than Nuremburg. "Trial of the Century" my Democratic Party symbolic animal.

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: US Electoral History
From: GUEST,Pete Peterson
Date: 15 Nov 00 - 03:22 PM

A wondeful book is Joel Garreau's "The Nine Nations of North America" published in 1980 and not dated at all-- one of his "nations" he called Dixie, which is most of the Confederacy B*U*T also includes southern Ohio, Indiana up to Indianapolis, and "Southernillinois" (all one word) which explains a number of Lincoln's problems (and Oliver P. Morton as well) as well as the places where the 1920's version of the Klan had its greatest influence.
in fact, you can look at Garreau's map of North America, take out the non-US part, and see that each "nation" clearly chose its favored candidate. Anybody else know this book? PETE

Subject: RE: BS: US Electoral History
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Nov 00 - 11:12 AM

Gawd Ted........Thanks for that post. I've about had it with the hyping of the news. The news is bad enough at times without using the superlatives. I too fail to understand why every story must be the "-st" of all time.

I'm not anxious for the election to be over, but I can't wait for the TV mini-series!!! Maybe we should start casting it now. I see the OJ trial thingy is on tonight so all those folks will be looking for work.............

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: US Electoral History
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 15 Nov 00 - 10:42 AM

Kim,

The same newspeople called the OJ trial"The Trial of the Century" (overlooking, for instance, the Nuremburg Trials) and regulary refer to AIDS as "The Twentieth Century's Costliest Epidemic" forgetting the Spanish Influenza (200 million dead!) Polio, Smallpox, and Tuberculosis, Columbine High School was the worst massacre of children (at least we Mudcatters know about the 1913 massacre in Calumet, Michigan-"And the children that died there was 73"), not that these things aren't serious, but there is such a thng as perspective.

TV news people tend to sell the news, which they do by claiming that, whatever it is that they are covering, is more important than anything since the last thing they were covering--

Subject: RE: BS: US Electoral History
From: Kim C
Date: 15 Nov 00 - 10:16 AM

Supposedly politicians are human beans too...

What I think is funny is that I keep hearing in the news "this has never happened before! this has never happened before!" when obviously it HAS happened before. Anyway I have complete faith that a decision will be reached, and in the meantime, I think I'll have a drink. :) Bidness as usual.

I think we could call George "Dub" and put a cowboy hat and some woolly chaps on him.

Subject: RE: BS: US Electoral History
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Nov 00 - 08:58 PM

Kim, your info on Indiana is quite correct and even today, the Vincennes area host a large amount of Klan activity.

Now to be fair, let me bash MY state......Rutherford B. Hayes is one of seven presidents from Ohio. Sadly, he may have been one of our better ones. Grant was a good general and a lousy President. Then of course there was Warren G. Harding...........This is too painful to even continue. Forgive us our politicians...................

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: US Electoral History
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 00 - 06:46 PM

So what are they going to call Bush if he makes it to the Whiter House? I think Robespierre's nickname - "the seagreen incorruptible" has a nice ring to it. "His boil highness" might do...

Subject: RE: BS: US Electoral History
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Nov 00 - 05:57 PM

Hayes was also called "His Fradulency", which I think has a nice ring to it as well, Mc Grath.

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: US Electoral History
From: paddymac
Date: 14 Nov 00 - 05:47 PM

What a great place to keep learning, and learning. Thanks to all.

Subject: RE: BS: US Electoral History
From: Kim C
Date: 14 Nov 00 - 05:10 PM

DRIFT ALERT - I would again PLEASE like everyone to know that Mr. Crow was not an exclusive resident of the Southland, as many people seem to think. Mister was born in Indiana in 1955 and remembers very well colored lunch counters, restrooms, water fountains, etc. When the KKK revived after the turn of the century, their largest membership was in the state of Indiana. Last time I checked, Indiana was not considered a Southern state. Not to cast any aspersions on Hoosiers - just to illustrate that racism is not and has never been exclusive to the South.

Subject: RE: BS: US Electoral History
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 14 Nov 00 - 04:57 PM

Gern: Thanks for the commentary. That agrees with my perception.

Subject: RE: BS: US Electoral History
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 00 - 04:05 PM

I read that he was widely referred to as President Rutherfraud. But not by Republicans.

Subject: RE: BS: US Electoral History
From: Gern
Date: 14 Nov 00 - 02:28 PM

Please note the implications of this "compromise." The North ended its occupation of all Confederate territories, not because there was no further need for "peacekeeping operations," but to appease political powers whose loyalty was purchased. This effectively halted any advancement black Americans had enjoyed in the South since Emancipation. Although Northern occupation of the South was ugly and demeaning, it allowed the recently freed slaves a chance to become meaningful members of society. For a brief moment of time, the Southern US became a balanced, multi-racial society, and blacks enjoyed some economic opportunity, voting rights and some integrations of public facilities, including city and state legislatures. After the hasty Federal withdrawal, Southern legislatures quickly expelled recently elected black officials, and in most states it would be nearly 100 years before any others were seated. Jim Crow barriers went up quickly, lychings began and racial terrorists like the KKK were given free rein to subdue those upstart ex-slaves. By engineering a convenient "compromise" in the name of averting an "insurrection," the US government abandoned Southern blacks to a fate of segregation, poverty and suppression. Beware the apparent conveniences of a "quick fix!"

Subject: RE: BS: US Electoral History
From: GUEST,Mike Pope
Date: 14 Nov 00 - 02:19 PM

While y'all are correct that the South did not have adequate resources to mount a second insurrection, Kim C's statement that it didn't have the resources to start the first is also true. One can reasonably conclude, then, that it did not matter to these brazen southerners. Believe me, they would have gladly taken to the field to have an opportunity to kill just one more Union solider.

Paddymac, it's more than just "artistic devise" to say that folks in the South were stockpiling weapons in anticipation of a second revolution. The speech I referred to with Larry Sabato went on for some length describing the lingering animosity and resentment in the South. There was a very real chance that the situation could have erupted into another civil insurrection, if not civil war, which is why Dr. Sabato referred to Tilden as a great forgotten man for preventing such a thing from happening. Keep in mind that much of the south was still under military occupation.

On a musical note, I am saddened to say that the Halcyon Daze are over. Musical differences and personal strife have produced irreconcilable differences between the three of us. Kris (vocals/guitar) and I are now looking for a new drummer in the Tallahassee area. If anyone knows of a good drummer, please drop me an e-mail at [e-mail].

Subject: RE: BS: US Electoral History
From: Kim C
Date: 14 Nov 00 - 01:16 PM

Wow! I didn't know about that.

No, we sure didn't have the resources for a second insurrection! Didn't even have 'em for the first, which is how come we lost. :)

Subject: US Electoral History
From: paddymac
Date: 14 Nov 00 - 12:45 PM

Here's an excerpt from this morning's local rag. It was written by Mike Pope, the "Letters Editor", and a hell of a fine bassist with a local group called "Halcyon Daze", doing what Mike has described as "kind of a blues, rock, jazz, fusion mix". I can't describe their stuff any better, but it's toe-tapping good stuff. * * *

Reconstruction of a crisis: learning from the past

"Since Nov. 7, the nation had been waiting in suspense after a deadlocked electorate returned a vote that was so close, a handful of critical counties could swing the entire election. One of the main reasons the election was so close was that both candidates took remarkably similar positions on almost all the major issues. Despite this, the campaign became acrimonious and at times unseemly. Early returns made it look as if the Democrats had won. But then, Republicans went behind closed doors and plotted. Pretty soon, people thought the Republicans had won.

"When it became clear that election returns would be disputed in a lengthy legal process, each side sent 'visiting statesmen' to Florida and elsewhere to make sure the canvassing boards were on the up and up. Back in Washington, the current president, now in his second term of an administration marred by continuous scandals, privately wished that he could have a third term.

"How would this situation end?

"Unfortunately, the situation dragged on from Nov. 7, 1876, until march 2, 1877. Each side bitterly disputed the election returns and was sure that it was on the moral high ground. Accusations, bribes, intimidation and raw partisan politics stretched into the spring of the next year.

"The situation was finally resolved when Democrat Samuel Tilden announced that he would concede on three conditions: that when inaugurated, Republican Rutherford B. Hayes would pull federal troops out of Louisiana and South Carolina (the two remaining Republican carpetbag governments); appoint at least one Southerner to his Cabinet; and support federal aid to education and internal improvements in the South.

"With the 'Compromise of 1877,' the bitterly contested election of 1876 was finally resolved. Although Samuel Tilden probably won the popular vote, he conceded and therefore prevented the possibility of a second Southern insurrection."

Although there was certainly lingering resentment, I don't believe that the South was capable of mounting a "second insurrection" just 12 years after the close of the Civil War, but preventing "the possibility of" isn't quite the same as actually preventing, so I'll grant him the point as an "artistic device." :>)