Lyr Req: roll down

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: roll down
From: Artful Codger
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 07:47 PM

Bellamy was certainly borrowing from tradition, and unabashedly. But how many such songs specifically about the transported have you ever heard? This is not a mere shanty of recycled phrases, but a distinct narrative, clearly recognizable as a unique work, in which borrowed bits only provide an underpinning. Why should he (or his heirs) "copyleft" such a work, abandoning well-deserved royalties, just because it's a great joy to sing and artfully incorporates commonly used elements of the genre?

Composers never create entirely new works; their art is in how they select and arrange existing elements into new works. It is this that copyright was intended to protect. You and I may find copyrights restrictive in reusing and evolving such material for our own profit, but we have little grounds to shout "unfair", except perhaps to our governments.

As for the corrections I submitted, this is a copyrighted work, and definitive sources both exist and are readily accessible, so there was really no justification for harvesting such a bastardization into the DT (particularly under the wrong name!) If one purports it is a "folk-processed" version, it should be clearly labelled as such, with suitable disclaimers regarding accuracy and transmission. I restrained from saying the differences were out-and-out wrong because I'm not familiar with what alterations Bellamy himself may have made or authorized since the original recording. Nor did I compare the printed lyrics with the recording. But most of the differences water down Bellamy's careful word choices - the downside of the "folk process".

As for the abridged version, well, let's agree to disagree. The language is not really an improvement, the brevity fails to reflect the length and travails of such a voyage, and that chorus is such a glory to dig into, one shouldn't be deprived so soon of the opportunity. There are gaps in continuity that, though common in folk material, here aren't justified. I believe Bellamy had a fine sensitivity for such matters; few really do improve on his discretion.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: roll down
From: Greg B
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 04:56 PM

The idea of a claim of authorship on 'Roll Down' is nearly
laughable. I mean, look at the thing! I wonder if there's a
phrase or a melodic phrase that's not lifted directly or
re-combined from the original work of one of ten generations
of hard-working deepwater chanteymen (who ploughed the raging
main). And a few shallow-water ones as well.

Make no mistake, it's a brilliant and stirring song, finely
crafted and all. Other than maybe the form seems to be like
hauling and the words sound like heaving. Maybe it's an
'elbow bending' chantey.

But it's also a perfect example of what's broken in intellectual
property laws regarding works that are about 1% the work of the
copyright holder and 99% the work of those who went before.

Works like 'Roll Down' ought to be ceded into the public domain
by their authors, in recognition of the fact that they truly are
the work of a great body of contributors to the culture and
heritage, and not of any one person.

It might make an interesting project to figure out, line by
line, where the bits of 'Roll Down' are derived.

And yes, I know...legally one CAN copyright such a work. But
just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.
Perhaps, like Linux, you should 'copyleft' it to prevent
others from staking their claim, and make money off of
'service' (i.e., singing it).

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: roll down
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 09:02 AM

Artful Codger-

Your comments with regard to the lyrics printed with THE TRANSPORTS are certainly in order. It's important to know what the composer thought was worth recording.

It's also inevitable that a song such as this will be changed through mistakes in transcribing and by deliberate attempts to improve it.

In my opinion the shorter form of the song is an improvement and some of the new wording works better. But we all owe Peter Ballamy thanks for creating this splendid sea shanty.

And anyone planning to record a version should first secure permission from Peter's sister the gracious Jenny Bellamy.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Roll Down
From: Artful Codger
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 04:11 AM

The captured version ("Around Me Brave Boys") differs in some surprising ways from the lyrics printed in the original album booklet. Respecting copyright, I won't reproduce the original version, but these are the most notable differences:

As Charly noted, the proper title is "Roll Down".

The first verse ("Sweet ladies of Plymouth...") is missing.

The anchor's aweigh, and the sails are unfurled.

The chorus lines run "Walk her round", not "walk around". Similarly, they take her (the ship) half-way round the world.

The Bay of Biscay is wide, and the coast of Africa, wild; neither is white.

The transports are described by varying adjectives that correspond to the sense of each verse: sickly, nervous, lonesome, simple, weary, stranded.

"They'll" should usually be "will", while "will" in the arrival verse should be "we'll" (different meaning.) "These" should be "the" throughout.

"old Engeland" rather than "Olde England"; the spelling reflects the extra syllable - it's not a shop window affectation.

They "arrive off Australia's strand" (though a change to New Holland is more accurate historically.)

There is no verse about arriving in England (the next to last verse in the harvested version - and a clubby one, IMHO.)

The last line starts "And go roving" (statement, not command.)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: roll down
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 03:15 PM

Ah, ha! Close but not exactly on target.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: roll down
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 03:13 PM

Thanks, Joe.,

Is this (

 (beginning) and 

(end ))explained in one of those "help" threads that I have not made use of? (LINK?) I could put chords in parentheses but they look much prettier this way.

   A      B                   C 

This is only a test;this is only a test.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: roll down
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 03:02 PM

Charley, I fixed the chord spacing by adding the Preformat commands <pre> (beginning) and </pre> (end). Did I do it right?
You'll also note that I added harvesting marks ^^ to show that I submitted the song to the Digital Tradition as an alternate version.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: roll down
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 11:24 AM

"Roll Down" is one of those rare contemporary songs that is so well done that I like to think a 19th century shantyman would get a real kick out of it. Our group Roll & Go enjoys singing this fine song as well, and if we EVER get it right we'll add it to our next CD.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: roll down
From: Les from Hull
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 11:16 AM

For anyone whose is not familiar with 'The Transports', the ballad opera written by Peter Bellamy and the album (now CD) recorded by some of the leading lights on the UK folk scene at the time, it's well worth a listen. Even after all these years.

And for performers who are looking for songs to enhance their repetoire, it's a wonderful source.

Les

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: roll down
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 10:57 AM

That's the song my new band uses to kick off our gigs!

:-)

Subject: Lyr/Chords Add: ROLL DOWN (Peter Bellamy)^^
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 10:30 AM

This song really should be titled "Roll Down"; that's how it's listed on the Transports CD. James Keelaghan led a slimmed down version which is more like this:

ROLL DOWN
(By Peter Bellamy as sung by James Keelaghan)

  F                  C      F            Bb    F 
  Ye ladies of Ply-mouth, we bid you good-bye,
             Bb  F  Bb F  C 
  	Roll-oll, roll-oll-oll down!
         F                   C   F       Bb   F 
  We'll rock you and roll you again by and by,
              Bb F     C  F     C    F   C   F 
  	Walk a-round, me brave boys, and roll down!
  
  Chorus:
    

          Bb    F  Bb  F  Bb F C 
  	And we'll roll-oll, roll-oll-oll down,
             Bb F     C  F     C     F   C   F 
  	Walk a-round, me brave boys, and roll down!
  
  The anchor's away and the sails are unfurled...
  We're bound for to sail her halfway 'round the world...
  
  Chorus:
  
  In the deep Bay of Biscay the seas do run high...
  Them poor weary transports they'll wish they could die.(CHO)
  
  When the great southern whales on our quarter do spout...
  Them poor weary transports, they'll goggle and shout.(CHO)
  When at last we draw near to Australia's bold strand...
  Them poor weary transports, they'll long for the land.(CHO)
  
   Then, sweet ladies of Plymouth, we'll pay all your rent,
  	Roll-oll, roll-oll-oll down!
  And go roving no more till our money's all spent,
  	Walk around, me brave boys, and roll down!
  
  	And we'll roll-oll, roll-oll -oll down,
  	Walk around, me brave boys, and roll down! (2X)

^^

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: roll down
From: GUEST,Amethyst
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 08:26 AM

Thanks for the welcome nutty,I've got the lyrics, I know The Transports is by Peter Bellamy and sung by Cyril Tawney, just lazy typing.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: roll down
From: nutty
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 07:43 AM

Lost part of that posting - strange

The missing bit said - Roll Down is in DT under "Around me Brave Boys" so type that into either the "lyrics" seach box or the "forum " seach box and the words will appear

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: roll down
From: nutty
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 07:38 AM

Amethyst - Roll Down is by Peter Bellamy not Cyril Tawney, but is, as you say , from The Transports

It is in the Digital Tradition lyrics as Around me Brave Boys (click here) and if you type that into, either the "lyrics" search or the "forum" search box, you will find the words

PS.Welcome to Mudcat

---

HTML fixed and link added.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: roll down
From: GUEST,Amethyst
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 06:04 AM

Can anyone help with the lyrics of "Roll Down" by Cyril Tawney from The Transports?