BS: Nobel Peace Laureates Call to Action

Subject: RE: BS: Nobel Peace Laureates Call to Action
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 10:02 AM

I just deleted a long post, because as I typed I realized, "A Freind" is not really concerned about the actions of America. His post clearly states that this is all a scam so that Bush can take power with the CIA. Bin Laden is nothing more than someon that is unhappy with a former employer, we are making war with the innocent people of Afghanistan, and that the attacks were all our fault. I love how you hide behind peace to attack the president. You use peace as your shield as you 'claim' a vast conspiracy. Your political views are flawed guest, your view of reality horrificly blurred, your conclusions drawn on bias and distorted ideas.

You state how even those that lost loved ones in the attacks do not want to see innocent people hurt. And that is true. I don't wish to either. But your conclusion is that we are doing nothing but killing innocent people. You take a quote that bombs will not get rid of Bin Laden, and make the assumption that it is all a scam against an innocent group of people. I did listen to that press conference. Perhaps you should have listened to the whole thing, rathter than pick and choose. what was said (paraphrasing) was that bombs would not take out Bin Laden, it was one phase of many. The Al Queda is well trained in how to evade overt military attack. This is a way to cripple what we can, to limit thier movement and cut supplies.

Your arguement is that because you did not listen to the full interview, that all actions are a great conspiracy. You have taken one line, and turned it into your own paranoid belief that all this action is for nothing. Over 6000 dead, the Al Queda calling it a "Good Thing", the Taliban refusing to turn over Bin Laden even though other governments (not just the US) have seen and confirmed the evidence. That is why these events have unfolded. Peace would be great, but don't hide behind it, so you can spew out half truths that lead to outrageous conclusions. It is disrespectful of those that have died, and those that will die as a result of this war.

Subject: RE: BS: Nobel Peace Laureates Call to Action
From: Amos
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 09:34 AM

Ocrober 9, 2001: An al-Qaida spokesman repeated Osama Bin Laden's Sunday calls for all Muslims to fight the U.S., and his praise for the World Trade Center and Pentagon hijackers and then threatened more of the same by stating, "The Americans must know that the storm of airplanes will not stop, and there are thousands of young people who look forward to death like the Americans look forward to living."

I think this makes a good case for handling the force problem first and the belief or dialogue problem second.

I also think that the approach of the West to the issues of Palestine, Israel and other Middle Eastern countries has been completely bungled. Originally this was bungled by the post WW_I leaders of the Zionist movement (the movement for establishing a homeland for Jewish people) AND equally bungled by the inept leaders of the English government from Balfour on down. The operation of the British Mandate over what was then post-Ottoman Palestine was a fuckup in the grandest tradition of British foolishness, and that is not an anti-British statement. The only one who understood the ground truth who came before the League of Nations was T.E. Lawrence (the fabled Lawrence of Arabia)and he was ignored. This is the legacy of that stupidity. FWIW.

Regards,

A.

Subject: RE: BS: Nobel Peace Laureates Call to Action
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 09:23 AM

Excuse me - "Everyone with any sense knows that human life is sacred" - that is a biased statement if I ever read one. Human life is interesting and fun and worth preserving in some cases, but sacred, hardly. Or were you writing with religious fervor, really the last thing any peace movement needs, in my opinionated oipnion?

Subject: RE: BS: Nobel Peace Laureates Call to Action
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 09:08 AM

'disgruntled...employee'? (my emphasis)

and he just had a tiny bit of vengeance to get even...?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Nobel Peace Laureates Call to Action
From: GUEST,A Friend
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 08:51 AM

I believe it was yesterday that I heard a Bush administration cabinet member (can't remember which one, but I'm thinking it was Rumsfeld in a press briefing) say that it was highly unlikely that these military actions would result in the killing or capture of Bin Laden.

Which begs the question, why engage in bombing at all if one can't even obtain the so-called "military objective" (to paraphrase Powell)?

I believe these bombings of a country which couldn't possibly retaliate against us is being done to give the Americans screaming for blood a good taste of it. I believe it is being done to prop up and bolster the Bush administration's grip on power and popularity with the voting and non-voting public. Afghanistan was chosen, because it could easily be attacked without fear of immediate military retaliation from the country being attacked.

I believe the Bush administration will use this ill-gained power to gut the civil liberties of all Americans that his father's administration was not able to accomplish during and in the wake of the Gulf war during his time. What we are seeing is the paranoid, vengeful fantasies of the Bush legacy--the CIA in full power and control of the White House, coming home to roost like carrion crow.

Why don't people understand that the WTC/Pentagon attacks was a case of the CIA's covert support of Middle East terrorism finding it's way home? Bin Laden is nothing more than a disgruntled former CIA employee. Same with the Taliban. How anyone can think that bombing the people of Afghanistan and starving them into oblivion is just retribution for the violence suffered by the innocent civilians killed here is absolutely beyond my comprehension.

Subject: RE: BS: Nobel Peace Laureates Call to Action
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 08:08 AM

Amos said what I wanted to say, probably better than I could have. So I just want to add my voice to his. Intelligent people can disagree on this, and I respect those on the Mudcat and elsewhere who advocate a nonviolent response to this act. But I believe that the attack was so horrendous, and so deliberate and carefully planned, that we (I am a US citizen) need to respond militarily to try to stop the people who organized this and are threatening to carry out similar attacks in the future. I pray we will be successful, and I am encouraged by the intelligence and thoughtfulness which our leaders have displayed thus far.

I believe that we should simultaneously be looking for root causes, reexamining assumptions about the USA's role in world affairs, and making adjustments to our foreign policies and practices where warranted. But I also truly believe that we need to take these people out, and be quick about it.

I also have to say that I'm pretty disappointed in the Nobel laureates for this statement (I am assuming it is legitimate). I'm all in favor of discussing and debating the various courses of action available to us, but is holding a conference and issuing a statement really all they can come up with for an action plan? Maybe they ought to think a little more about this. It's all very nice to say you're in favor of peace (most of us would say that), but the devil is in the details, and so far it looks like these folks haven't come up with much.

Subject: RE: BS: Nobel Peace Laureates Call to Action
From: SeanM
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 01:03 AM

I'm also very strongly on the side against this 'war'. For many reasons - Kat sums some of it up nicely, but there are so many other reasons why.

I'm convinced, unfortunately, that this was inevitable. That this is a war created from political expediency on top of many other grievous mistakes. That our 'leadership' bowed to the 'need' to go out and 'do something' rather than attempt any other routes. I honestly don't believe that there EVER was a moment when anything but war was contemplated.

I am also profoundly disturbed by what the DoD pushes out in the various press conferences. My personal "Favorite" so far was one of the various PIOs announcing that this war would last until "all terrorist groups and those who support them" were destroyed. All nice and good - but who's defining 'terrorist group'? Who's defining who we do and don't go after for 'supporting' them? After all, the CIA has a LONG track record of supporting terrorist groups, yet I don't imagine we'll be seeing Patriot missles launched into Virginia any time in the near future.

I'm also disturbed that this is a war that has no truly visible endpoint beyond when the attackers announce "we won!". Bush (and his succesors) can concievably keep this up for as long as there are humans left to attack. Turned Afghanistan to glass? Well, Libya's right around the corner. Leveled them? Look out Saddam! Finished the entire African continent and made the Middle East glow for the next hundred millenia? Belfast is looking pretty violent. Hey, what about those Filipino commies who killed that guy from Corona? A few well placed missles into Manila ought to straighten THEM out! Hey, we've reduced the rest of the world to rubble! WOW! White supremacists in Montana! Black militant groups in Atlanta! Chicano separatists in Los Angeles! Bomb them all!

It's a war against a criminal act, and I see it as having about the same probability of a quick success as the "War on Drugs" did. This is a horrific thing to pass down to the next generation - something with great potential to be a hundred times more horrific than the WTC attacks. Look at the news - all we've done is create a new legion of 'radicals' who believe that the western world is evil. But now, they've got a live missle coming at them live on CNN to stoke the fires even higher.

M

Subject: RE: BS: Nobel Peace Laureates Call to Action
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 12:10 AM

Amos, you certainly do not need to apologise to me. I have found it strange, myself, that I do not feel more of a sense of rightness about what is happening. I have been examining my consciousness ever since this happened and all I can say is I feel a profound sadness for and in the world and I know that the god of my heart is saddened that violence is being met with violence. I do think we have to stop terrorism, I just happen to think there has to be a better way than outright bombing. I honestly don't know, but it seems we've made a lot of mistakes along the way and we keep making mistakes in thinking inside the same old boxes, time after time. Perhaps in a crisis like this, we have to allow the might, but I do not think it wil gain us much, in the Cosmic long-run; it will only shore up the belief that might makes right.

Guest, Friend, there are others on this forum who have been asking for Peace, too. I knew I wasn't the only one, but it is still good to hear of the others you've brought to mind. thanks, again.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Nobel Peace Laureates Call to Action
From: Amos
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 11:52 PM

Great. There is a growing network of groups spread across the Middle East -- Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Egypt, for straters -- who are fanatic fringers of the Islam community and who have been growing bolder by the month ever since Khomeini rose to power in Iran, and who are absolutely convinced that the righteousness and purity of their cause is what overwhelmed the Russians in Afghanistans. (It was more likely US made Stinger missiles that turned that tide). And their cause is what? To reverse the long tide of history and place strict Islamic governments in place of those who promote human tolerance, and to overcome that tide by violent attack against individuals chosen as targets because of their beliefs.

They are using violent means and according to every indication from Intel, they are scrambling to acheive more violent means including biological and nuclear.

So what we should do is hold a conference? Work up a white paper on the root causes?

I am very sorry; I have thought long and hard about coming out plainly on the side of pacific tolerance, compassionate overwhelm and other creative but peaceful means. And the shattered smoking images of dead civilians in Tel Aviv and Wall Street keep reminding me of one really really important fact.

We are confronting a force aimed at our destruction and willing and able to hurt, maim or destroy our friends.

The correct procedure is:

1. Render this force powerless to harm us, using any mechanism that serves and only as much force as is needed to do so.

2. THEN hold a conference on why they were that way.

3. Use what we know of compassionate technologies to resurrect them and get them started toward productive and fulfilling societies.

To do first is something akin to trying to have an insightful, feeling conversation with a rapist in heat in an isolated back street. Not a good idea unless you tie him down first. THEN have your meaningful dialogue. It'll drive him cwazy!!

Kat, please forgive me, but I really feel these are the fundamental facts of the matter and it seems clear-cut to me that the individual desire for peace cannot serve as our group operating principle until step 1 above is accomplished.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Nobel Peace Laureates Call to Action
From: GUEST,A friend
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 11:11 PM

John Gray,

I'm not sure what it is you are insinuating. John Hume and David Trimble didn't add their names to the list, and nor did Rigoberta Menchu, or many others.

What difference does that make? It doesn't make their message any less meaningful or important, does it?

Subject: RE: BS: Nobel Peace Laureates Call to Action
From: GUEST,John Gray / Australia
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 11:07 PM

I see that Arafat hasn't included himself with the other Peace Laureates, hhhmmmmmm.

F.M.E. / JG.

Subject: RE: BS: Nobel Peace Laureates Call to Action
From: GUEST,A friend
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 11:00 PM

A lot of people disagree with your assessment, Bert. That is why we wage peace, work for justice, and strive for reconciliation instead of retaliation.

Subject: RE: BS: Nobel Peace Laureates Call to Action
From: Bert
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 10:58 PM

Everyone with any sense knows that human life is sacred. Unfortunately it doesn't work to unilaterally declare peace. You'll always get a Hitler or a Khomeini or an Idi Amin come along and take advantage of the situation.

Sometimes, one has to take a leaf out of Boudicca's book and go and kick the shit out of the enemy, even if it takes all that you have.

Subject: RE: BS: Nobel Peace Laureates Call to Action
From: GUEST,A Friend
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 10:54 PM

Kat,

Many, many people are speaking out for peace, and have been ever since Sept. 11th. And will continue to do so for as long as it takes, thankfully.

This forum seems rather unbalanced--more attention to the war side than the peace side, so I thought the time was right to wade into the troubled waters...

Subject: RE: BS: Nobel Peace Laureates Call to Action
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 10:50 PM

THANK YOU! It is good to know I am not the only one who feels this way. It is so good to hear these esteemed speak out.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Nobel Peace Laureates Call to Action
From: Mark Clark
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 10:44 PM

blicky

Subject: Nobel Peace Laureates Call to Action
From: GUEST,A Friend
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 08:53 PM

Text can be found at:

www.warresisters.org/nobel_statement.htm