Lyr Add: The Tailor and the Louse

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: The Tailor and the Louse
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 21 Aug 24 - 01:23 PM

I think you will find that the Nine Tailors saying predated the Sayers reference and the Fen tradition. I believe it was used by Elizabeth the first who is reported to have begun her reply to a petition by eighteen tailors with the words: “Gentlemen both.”
The saying has also been documented in France and Germany. The same phrase appeared in William Hicke's 'Grammatical Drollery' in 1682.
Hicke was not wildly keen on the phrase and came up with the story of a group of tailors rescuing one of their own from destitution.

“There is a proverb which has been of old,
And many men have likewise been so bold,
To the discredit of the Taylor’s Trade,
Nine Taylors go to make up a man, they said.
But for their credit I’ll unriddle it t’ye:
A draper once fell into povertie,
Nine Tayors joyn’d their purses together then,
To set him up, and make him a man again.”

The belittlement of the blameless tailor was compounded by the story that an evil servant having witnessed nine tailors working for her mistress and getting paid more than she, battered them with a black pudding! The tailors were so terrified by the black pudding, they handed over all the money. As a vegetarian I have some sympathy! I'm not sure with whom though.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: The Tailor and the Louse
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 21 Aug 24 - 12:47 PM

Nine Tailors: This brings back memories of the 1950s, when I was at my grandmother's house. Every now and then, the church down the road would toll the bell three times, then another three, then three more, then nine times. At the time, I was, erm, told that said church was foreign; I've now been given to understand that this was the Angelus, which is a particular part of the Catholic mass.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: The Tailor and the Louse
From: Reinhard
Date: 21 Aug 24 - 04:03 AM

That saying had nothing to do originally with makers of suits. Dorothy L. Sayers refers in her Lord Peter Wimsey novel The Nine Tailors (Victor Gollancz, 1934) to the custom of ringing the bell in the Fen village church when there was a death:

"Toll-toll-toll; and a pause; toll-toll-toll; and a pause; toll-toll-toll; the nine tailors, or teller-strokes, that mark the passing of a man."

… while the bell was rung three times to indicate that it was a child who had died, and six times for a woman, ‘telling’ the villagers by the number. So ‘tellers’ has become ‘tailors’ over time, as people have forgotten the custom.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: The Tailor and the Louse
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 20 Aug 24 - 03:47 PM

The unfortunate Tailor (see above) was a music hall production by Sam Cowell. The old saying 'Nine tailors make a man' more or less sums up the attitude towards a noble profession. Various professions provoke the same reaction in this day and age. Banker-Traffic Warden- Bailiff- Debt Collector Lawyer etc. There are several Traditional songs about immoral lawyers, and one springs to mind about Bailiffs 'The Devil and Bailiff McGlynn'. The poor old tailor gets more than his fair share of invectives. Not convinced by the rhyme theory I am afraid.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: The Tailor and the Louse
From: GUEST,James Phillips
Date: 20 Aug 24 - 12:23 PM

Re: the tailor as an object of ridicule in folk songs, can I also speculate that it is at least something to do with the fact that “tailor” is a close rhyme to “sailor,” and sailors are usually presented as tough and manly in folk songs. Therefore the tailor is often presented as a stark contrast, the very opposite of the sailor. You see this theme explored in songs like “I’ll go and list for a sailor” in which a tailor laments the loss of his woman to a sturdy, black bearded captain.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Tailor and the Louse
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 11:08 AM

i love the talior and the mouse

Subject: RE: Origins: The Tailor and the Louse
From: The Vulgar Boatman
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 04:20 PM

That's the one, Burl. Sounds almost like the weavers taking the rise out of the tailors with a sarcastic toast...
Ian, as to anti-semitism, curiously enough the only Jewish tailors I've been personally acquainted with have been far more like Morry in Mankowitz's "Bespoke Overcoat", but that's a bit modern. Was tailoring a major profession for Jews when the likes of The Tailor and the Louse or even The Tailor's Breeches came into being, or are we rationalising the stereotype to include anti-semitism? As you may gather from the original question, that bit of history is a weak point for me.
As an aside, though, I have to admit that when an old Jewish friend of mine was called up to the Army in WW2, he was greeted with "You're Jewish - you must be good at tailoring..." and set to altering uniforms!

Subject: RE: Origins: The Tailor and the Louse
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 08:16 AM

VB, it's my understanding that tailors in folk culture (not just song, note that the original peeping Tom in the Godiva story was a tailor, for example) are always stereoyped and ridiculed as tight-fisted, lecherous and leering, scheming and over-charge for their work. Why? Well, in European history Jews were prevented from owning land and thereby prevented from doing a whole host of jobs. One of the key professions Jews entered was tailoring, so it's no coincidence that the professional caricature of the tailor is identical to the anti-semitic caricature of the Jew. And that's why trad. songs invariably try to make the tailor look ridiculous, though The Tailor and the Louse does this in a rather opaque way.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Tailor and the Louse
From: RoyH (Burl)
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 07:03 AM

Is this the one with the 'Heigh Ho The Weaver, and 'Gentlemen, the Tailor' chorus lines?   I've sung it from time to time and usually announced it as 'a bit of nonsense'. If there is any deeper meaning I'd love to know it. Burl.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Tailor and the Louse
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 02:04 AM

Not 'Bowmaneer', but perhaps in some degree related to it. See threads:

Lyr ADD: The Tailor and the Louse: text and tune noted by the Hammond brothers from George Udall, Halstock, Dorset, July 1906. Also in DT at The Tailor and the Louse.

Lyr Req: The Tailor & The Mouse: text and tune from Baring-Gould and Sharp, English Folk-Songs for Schools. Derivative text and tune, from Burl Ives Song Book, in DT: The Tailor and the Mouse.

Those discussions also contain links to 'Bowmaneer' threads; all can be found via the search engine. There is some brief mention of the C18 broadside song 'A Bloody Battle between a Taylor and a Louse' and the C17 'A Dreadful Battle between a Taylor and a Louse' (mid C17, reissued later as 'The War-like Taylor'), in the notes to Classic English Folk Songs, the recent revision of The Penguin Book of English Folk Songs, for which supplementary material can be seen at Classic English Folk Songs: Supplementary material.

How far the later songs can be said to be 'related' to the earlier, as opposed to being separate compositions on a familiar theme, I wouldn't like to guess. There may, I suppose, have been some specific target intended by the broadside writers; but I don't recall authorities like Ebsworth making any suggestion along those lines. As like as not, the songs are all just swipes at a popular butt for ridicule, the tailor.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Tailor and the Louse
From: Little Robyn
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 01:36 AM

I used to know The Tailor and the Mouse. High diddle um tum feedle!
Robyn

Subject: RE: Origins: The Tailor and the Louse
From: Leadfingers
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 07:27 PM

Are you looking at Benjamin Bowmaneer V B ? or a similar song ?

Subject: Origins: The Tailor and the Louse
From: GUEST,The Vulgar Boatman
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 06:02 PM

I've just been looking at this again - wonderful imagery, good tune, what the !$&*@ is it about? Is it pure nonsense, yet another dig at the poor tailor by way of the company he keeps or is there something political. All ideas welcome.

Subject: RE: Lyr ADD: The Tailor and the Louse
From: Martin Ryan
Date: 26 Feb 98 - 02:46 PM

What happened "The Louse house of Kilkenny"? I could have sworn it was in the DT

Regards

Subject: RE: Lyr ADD: The Tailor and the Louse
From: Jon W.
Date: 26 Feb 98 - 12:49 PM

I suppose these songs are related to the folk tale "seven in one blow" about the tailor (played by Mickey Mouse) who kills seven insects (flys in the Disney version) with one blow, then makes himself a sash to commemorate the brave deed. The folks take him as a great hero and he gets stuck fighting a giant to win the hand of the princess (Minnie). Please excuse the Disney references, I've heard the tale elsewhere but I can't remember what book.

Subject: RE: Lyr ADD: The Tailor and the Louse
From: Bert
Date: 26 Feb 98 - 12:27 PM

Here 'tiz

Phthiraptera

Subject: RE: Lyr ADD: The Tailor and the Louse
From: Bert
Date: 26 Feb 98 - 12:18 PM

Jon,

I don't know where the Phthir comes from, but aptera means "without wings"

Subject: RE: Lyr ADD: The Tailor and the Louse
From: Jon W.
Date: 26 Feb 98 - 10:47 AM

What does phthira mean? I didn't know lice even had wings.

Subject: RE: Lyr ADD: The Tailor and the Louse
From: Bert
Date: 26 Feb 98 - 09:40 AM

Seeing as we are being so pedantic about the taxonomy of songs in the Methodolgies thread, we should be equally careful here.

Phthiraptera - Lice
Hemiptera - Bugs
Siphonaptera - Fleas
Coleoptera - weevils

I came home from work one day and my daughter said to me..."We have Thysanura in the house". The sad thing is that I understood her.

Subject: RE: Lyr ADD: The Tailor and the Louse
From: rich r
Date: 25 Feb 98 - 07:28 PM

Sure but it could make your audience flea.

Subject: RE: Lyr ADD: The Tailor and the Louse
From: Bruce O.
Date: 24 Feb 98 - 05:45 PM

My favourites are still the lousey songs.

Subject: RE: Lyr ADD: The Tailor and the Louse
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 Feb 98 - 05:42 PM

Don't forget weevils. And, at the risk of including arachnids as insects (I class them both as "bugs", but recognize the differences), Try Itsy Bitsy Spider.

Subject: RE: Lyr ADD: The Tailor and the Louse
From: rich r
Date: 23 Feb 98 - 06:58 PM

Ah,more bugs. Louses (lice, lices, leeses, lousen etc.) and Fleas. Certainly a pestiferous song.

rich r

Subject: Lyr/Tune Add: THE TAILOR AND THE LOUSE
From: Bruce O.
Date: 23 Feb 98 - 01:24 PM

[Indent even numbered lines]

The Tailor and the Louse

It's of a tailor and a louse,
Hey-ho! the weaver,
They lived together in one house,
Gentlemen, the Tailor.

He got so stout that he went out,
Hey-ho! the Weaver,
He caught the colic in his eye,
Gentlemen, the Tailor.

The louse was seen upon the post,
Hey-ho! etc.,
A-eating of the rowdy-towse, [round of toast
Gentlemen, etc.

The louse was seen behind the pump;
Hey-ho! etc.,
A-scratching of his rub-a-dump,
Gentlemen, etc.

The louse was sick and like to die,
Hey-ho! etc.,
They sent for Dr. Funny Eye,
Gentlemen, etc.

They had six fleas dressed all in black,
Hey-ho! etc.,
To carry the louse to Petty back,
Gentlemen, etc.

They had a bug to toll the bell,
Hey-ho! etc.,
To carry the louse's soul to hell,
Gentlemen, etc.

From JFSS 34, p. 213 (1930). Verses only in James Reeves' 'The Everlasting Circle', #129. Cf. "The War-like Taylor". For the 5th full measure for all but the 1st verse one should have: c3/2 B/ c/ A3/2

X:1
T:The Tailor and the Louse
N:JFSS 34, 1930
L:1/8
M:2/4
K:D
D|D3/2 F/ A3/2 A/|=c/2 B/G2|d2e3/2 e/|(d3/2=c/) .A B|\
=c3/2 B/ c/ A A/|G3/2 F/D2|E3/2 F G3/2 E/|D3D2|]