The Song's The Thing + Some BS

Subject: RE: The Song's The Thing + Some BS
From: Amos
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 07:55 PM

Murray, you're a crack up! Afraid it would lead to dancing!! LMAO!

Subject: RE: The Song's The Thing + Some BS
From: CapriUni
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 07:20 PM

Helen --

I was just thinking the same thing, or nearly. So thanks to your eloquence, I don't have to type nearly so much. :-)

Except to say that the Taliban banning music is evidence supporting the idea that the power of music is universal. If music were not important to the Taliban, they wouldn't go through such efforts to ban it -- they'd simply ignore it.

Subject: RE: The Song's The Thing + Some BS
From: Helen
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 06:05 PM

This thread has sparked a few thoughts for me.

I've noticed that many regimes which attempt to take total control over a large group of people will make decrees that music, art, literature, dancing and other cultural forms of expression should either be banned outright or should only be allowed if it fits the prevailing propaganda. The conclusion that some people have arrived at, including me, is that these forms of expression are extremely powerful because they communicate on many levels, and because the messages they can convey can strike a chord (a musical pun) in many of the people participating in or watching/listening to these activities. If the controlling regime fears mutiny then suppressing these activities helps to stop people communicating, and helps to stop them from getting motivated to take action. It's not unrelated to banning groups of three or more from getting together, i.e. unlawful assembly, which one of our states in Oz relied on rather a lot during a period of (relatively minor by world standards )political unrest.

Examples which spring to mind are Hitler's confiscation of many works of art which portrayed society in a way which he may have interpreted as "encouraging" freedom of expression or freedom of lifestyle e.g. impressionism, or homosexuality, etc. Just saw an interesting documentary on this a couple of days ago.

Also the English have attempted to suppress arts, music, and language of the Irish and Welsh, and probably many other cultures.

The other thought that occurred to me is a historical story I heard about a Welsh contingent of soldiers fighting in France - when, where etc I don't know - and after fighting all day the Welsh were sitting around their campfire singing their songs, and then from across the battlefield they heard the French soldiers, possibly Bretons, singing the same tune but in their own language. How could you fight the people who sing the same songs you do?

Helen

Subject: RE: The Song's The Thing + Some BS
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 04:33 PM

Sex is pretty universal, and my recollection is that the Taliban were pretty down on that as well.

As were the Puritans. They were afraid it might lead to dancing ....

Muray

Subject: RE: The Song's The Thing + Some BS
From: Morticia
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 04:24 PM

sorry, cut off in my prime....but although it's been a while since I looked at it, I think it might mention self-expression....which is where music would come in. I thought Kevin's view that stories might take the place of music where music is not allowed to be an interesting one. Didn't Hebridean mouth music start when instruments were banned?

Subject: RE: The Song's The Thing + Some BS
From: Morticia
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 04:22 PM

Maslow's heirarchy of needs would suggest that we DO have certain things in common, such as safety, food, shelter, self respect etc. It doesn't mention music

Subject: RE: The Song's The Thing + Some BS
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 02:03 PM

The Taliban are/were a political movement who were attempting to impose order on Afghanistan--their attempts to suppress popular and secular music had no basis in either Islamic or Afghani culture, both of which regard music, poetry, and dance more highly than we tend to in the west(present company excluded, of course)--

Subject: RE: The Song's The Thing + Some BS
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 01:42 PM

Right - the Taliban aren't against music, just against music that isn't what they aren't against. And you can't count a desire to survive as a HUMAN thing, it's a LIVING thing. And any social species communicates, and in that I include a lot of plants. But music *IS* a *human* universal, which is NOT to say that it is ONLY human.

Now, whether we can all rally 'round that flag is another story; what "passes for" music in some cultures is random noise to others...

Subject: RE: The Song's The Thing + Some BS
From: MMario
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 01:35 PM

Amos - you are far less cynical about our fellow humans then I am.

I'd be willing to argue at least several of the points you have made as not applying to all (or even most) humans.

*grin* not completly serious - but not far from it either.

Subject: RE: The Song's The Thing + Some BS
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 01:19 PM

Stories, maybe. Take away the music, and they are still there.

I suspect that the rationale for being against music would be that it is such a powerful thing that it ought to be reserved for special occasions. As I understand it tbe Taliban weren't against some types of religious music, and I know that there are some Christian traditions that don't allow secular music, but do allow particular styles of hymns.

My impression is that being against music and against alcohol tends to come hand-in-hand, with some religious traditions. And vice versa. I'm vice versa myself.

Subject: RE: The Song's The Thing + Some BS
From: Amos
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 12:56 PM

There are a number of things which all umans hold in common. THe most fundamental of them is the desire to reach a future of some kind. The problems begin when some go one way and others another -- some insist we need to find a future by organzing, others by reaching God, and others by raising better plants or taking better care of the oceans. They're all differently right, but the core desire for survival i the key note.

All humans are deeply involved in communication. I mean by this communication with ot without sounds, with others, with objects, with environments, and with themselves.

All humans feel postiive and negative states of love/tolerance/affection for others and the world.

All humans perceive, in various degrees, and all humans have to power of decision, even when it is temporarily suppressed into non use.

I think it is universally true that humans respond to good communication. What "good" consists of is a big subject, though.

A

Subject: RE: The Song's The Thing + Some BS
From: MMario
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 09:19 AM

After music, (which is nearly universal) I suspect breathing is about the only other commonality.

I suspect - even where the religious fundamentalists do not condone music it continues on - though possibly only in the privacy of one's own home. The Puritans tried hard to stamp out the singing of secular tunes - and failed.

Subject: BS: The Song's The Thing; And Then Some
From: saulgoldie
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 09:11 AM

A couple of my favorites in my "arsenal" of songs--As Tom Lehrer says: "We are the folk song army; each and every one of us cares, etc..."--are "Let The Band Play Dixie" by the late Bob Gibson, and "Christmas In The Trenches" by John McCutcheon, both of which speak to the power of music to unite people above the din of the guns of war. I was playing these both the other day (apparently not loud enough, since war persists), and I was struck by a realization. While I assumed that all of humanity has some music, even if it is not music I care for, and that that music has some deep human meaning to them (and thus is a universal that all humans can unite around), the Taliban and some other religious fundamentalists denounce music outright. This realization caused me to wonder, then, if not music, IS there any universal that we can come together around? It seems to me that peace or some semblance thereof requires something that all parties have in common.

I am NOT trolling, here. I am posing an ernest question to people whose insight I value, and also continuing to introduce myself by way of mentioning two songs that are very important to me, and the fact that I play. That playing, by the way, left my private room a few years ago, and began to find its way to retirement homes and a few other non-paying venues where people would at least not leave in *large* numbers. And this post is now long and rambling enough. I am thrilled to be here and gratified at the back-channel and board welcomes I have received. I hope I continue to make friends and manage to avoid massively pissing anyone off.

Saul