 sj |
||
|
||
BS: Catholic Sanctuary for Palestinians
|
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Sanctuary for Palestinians From: GUEST Date: 05 Apr 02 - 03:36 PM "There is a minority of intellectual pacifists whose real though unadmitted motive appears to be hatred of Western democracy and admiration of totalitarianism. Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other but if one looks closely at the writings of younger intellectual pacifists, one finds that they do not by any means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely against Britain and the US. Moreover they do not as a rule condemn violence as such, but only violence used in defense of Western countries." - George Orwell (in 1945), quoted in a letter to The Spectator
|
|
Subject: Lyr Add: GALAXY SONG (Eric Idle & John Du Prez) From: GUEST Date: 05 Apr 02 - 03:22 PM THE COSMIC SONG
Whenever life gets you down, Mrs. Brown,
Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
Our galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars;
Our universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding, |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Sanctuary for Palestinians From: PeteBoom Date: 05 Apr 02 - 02:51 PM seconding McGrath's comment - If only so we can say something other than "bloody eejit who posted at hh:mm on dd-mon-yr" or "absolute genius who posted at hh:mm on dd-mon-yr"... I'm off - but most know that... Pete |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Sanctuary for Palestinians From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Apr 02 - 02:44 PM Could you GUESTS please start adding pseudonyms if you are going to start quarrelling with each other - it gets bloody confusing. Is it really helpful playing silly games like that in this kind of context? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Sanctuary for Palestinians From: GUEST Date: 05 Apr 02 - 01:20 PM Oh lets just say I enjoyed it... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Sanctuary for Palestinians From: GUEST Date: 05 Apr 02 - 01:17 PM Guest 1:04, you already posted the same article in another thread. Considering that, why are you posting it here as well? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Sanctuary for Palestinians From: GUEST Date: 05 Apr 02 - 01:08 PM It also appears as though the priests who are claiming to be giving sanctuary to the Palestinians inside the church, are Greek Orthodox priests. I am not familiar with the Greek Orthodox church's ecclesiastical rights/laws of sanctuary, and how they differ from the Roman Catholic church. The reports as to who the Palestinians actually are, and the reason why they are armed which make the most rational sense to me, are the reports which claim that the majority are actually the Palestinian Authority police (who are legally allowed to carry arms) who were patrolling in the area of Manger Square when the Israelis moved in, and they took cover in the church and other buildings surrounding the square. The remainder of the armed Palestinians seem to be civilians who have guns for self-defense. That seems to be the story given most consistently by those who are inside the church, ie the religious members and the Italian TV journalist. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Sanctuary for Palestinians From: GUEST Date: 05 Apr 02 - 01:04 PM Facts Iraq approves new payscale for suicide bombers Last Updated Thu Apr 4 21:30:02 2002 NABLUS, WEST BANK - Iraq has upped the reward to the families of suicide bombers to $25,000(US) from $10,000, which may explain the dramatic increase in these attacks in Israel during the past month. Relatives of suicide bombers now get $25,000, up from $10,000 An Associated Press report Thursday said Iraq approved the new pay scale for suicide bombers at a conference in Baghdad on March 12. The new pay scale calls for $10,000 to be given to families of gunmen and others who fights Israelis, while the relatives of suicide bombers will receive $25,000. Since Iraq increased the reward money a month ago there have been 12 suicide-bomb attacks inside Israel, including one that killed 25 Israelis, most of them elderly Jews blown up as they attended a Passover dinner. In the past 18 months of fighting in the Middle East, 55 Palestinians have killed themselves in suicide attacks on Israeli citizens. In a speech at the White House Thursday, U.S. President George Bush called the suicide bombers "murderers." He said governments such as Iraq that reward relatives of suicide bombers "are guilty of soliciting murder of the worst kind." The wire service report described the case of Jamal Nasser, a 23-year-old architecture student who killed herself when she tried to ram a bus carrying Israeli settlers. The student's mother said she received a cheque for $10,000 from Iraq and a $5,000 cheque from Iran. She said she intends to use the reward money to buy an apartment. Written by CBC News Online staff
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Sanctuary for Palestinians From: PeteBoom Date: 05 Apr 02 - 01:00 PM Jumping in here, sans BDU... Just for the record, the Church of the Nativity is shared domain by the Greek Orthodox Church, whose ceremonies are at the main altar of the Sanctuary iteself, the Armenian Orthodox Church, whose ceremonies are at a side altar, and the Roman Catholic Church. There are several reports citing different priests that "some" Palestinians in the Church are Christian and participate in the daily services, and had BEFORE seeking Sanctuary. Further, in times of war, soldiers of a defeated army have many times sought Sanctuary, with arms. This is nothing unusual. The restriction is that they do not force the clerics to grant Sanctuary threat of violence, and they do not commit acts of violence from the church itself. In the case of the Church of the Nativity, this is an academic question. With only small arms, and no accessable windows, you'd need to open the doors and fire out the doors - not a smart move if you're surrounded by hostiles. Pete |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Sanctuary for Palestinians From: GUEST Date: 05 Apr 02 - 11:29 AM What none of you seem to be taking into account is the fact that the only person killed inside the church thus far has been a religious member of the church (the reports here in the US is he was a bellringer, shot by an Israeli sniper while moving inside the courtyard area of the grounds. The Italian TV journalist was interviewed last night on either CNN or MSNBC news--he was allowed to leave the church by the Israelis. He said he felt extremely guilty, because he does expect there could be a massacre of the people inside the church. He felt they were at very high risk if and when the IDF troops move in to take over the church. The priests may well be obfuscating the facts in order to protect the people inside the church, Wolfgang. Are you suggesting that the priests give the Israelis as much intelligence information as they need to successfully attack the Palestinians in the church would be in their own best interests, the IDF's best interests or what? How can anyone even consider surrendering any arms to the IDF, when the IDF has already killed one of the religious members inside the church? As to my "bias"--well, if my allegiance was to the Israeli/US "war on terror" sycophants, I don't think any of you would be using the word bias at all. Rather, you seem to think the propaganda being spewed at you by the governments engaged in terror campaigns against civilian populations is "fact" and not bias. I don't accept that. I believe journalists who work for mainstream media outlets are the ones most guilty of biased reporting, because they usually act as nothing more than megaphones for the country's government propagandists. This is a critical battle for the hearts and minds of people around the world regarding what the world's major military powers are calling "terrorists" and using as moral cover to attack civilian populations at will. The words we choose to use, the people who's side of the story we hear, the perspective of the reporters, their attitudes to people who aren't part of the West's mainstream, all that matters a great deal. That is my bias. I don't believe the propaganda being aimed at me by the government media apparatchiks in Washington, Jerusalem, London, or Ramallah. Period. I need a lot more information than what they provide to determine the facts of a situation, and I know I usually won't be able to get them. So I already know that I am going to have to form opinions based upon extremely biased government propaganda being broadcast as "objective reporting" by the American mainstream media, whose bias is always towards American government and corporate interests--not the public interest.
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Sanctuary for Palestinians From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Apr 02 - 11:01 AM Handguns and such are not an effective defence against an invading force with tanks and overwhelming firepower. So clearly getting rid of any guns is the rational thing to do in this kind of situation.
On the other hand just because there aren't any guns doesn't mean that you aren't still quite likely to get shot. As on Bloody Sunday, and on numerous other occasions, in all kinds of places, including Israel and Palestine. (And in those cases it is pretty common for guns to turn up conveniently after the event.)
One other thing, guns is not the best way to resist invaders in these kind of circumstances - but just because people are carrying them and using them does not mean they are "terrorists". |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Sanctuary for Palestinians From: Wolfgang Date: 05 Apr 02 - 07:49 AM GUEST, another example for your bias: Reporters without borders has reported about several attacks on reporters. A subgroup of cases has been traced to Israel's army firing. In the remainder of cases, the origin of the shots is not known. Reporters without borders carefully titles 'A dozen journalists under gunfire in Ramallah'. You title the report 'Israeli Defense Forces attacks on journalists'. Wolfgang |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Sanctuary for Palestinians From: Celtic Soul Date: 05 Apr 02 - 06:43 AM Guest penned: "One thing I am fascinated by, is the American media's disbelief that the Catholics inside the Church of the Nativity have given sanctuary to all those Palestinians and internationals who entered the building to get away from the Israeli shelling and machine gun fire" And later: "Not very balanced or objective reporting, now is it?" Ironic indeed... Speaking of unbalanced and subjective reporting, Guest... According to the Washington Post (which *has* been giving both sides a fair chance in their reporting), those people didn't just happen to run in their to get away from the shelling. They were fighters. The kinds of people who are all fired up by Arafats messages of martyrdom. The kinds of people who are willing to blow themselves up to take out an Israeli cafe. It was not as if they were all Grandmothers on their way to Mosque. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Sanctuary for Palestinians From: Wolfgang Date: 05 Apr 02 - 06:13 AM Just some news from a German news agency on the church of nativity. Sources: mobile phone calls from inside from monks, so make your guess at reliability. The monks are scared that there will be a massacre once the Israeli soldiers enter the church. One said, they are misused as a shield by armed militants. The figures mentioned are: 30 civilians and 150 mostly armed Palestinians (why 'civilians' and 'palestinians' are two distinct categories in that report I don't know) and 35 monks and nuns. Wolfgang |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Sanctuary for Palestinians From: Wolfgang Date: 05 Apr 02 - 05:31 AM I completely agree with you, McGrath, that the presence of armed (wo)men among many unarmed in a church is no reason to target it. As long as the weapons are not used. I don't understand why there is no more pressure from the church officials to hand over the weapons, for the weapons in the hands of a minority can lead to a dangerous situations for the unarmed majority among the refugees: There could be some temptation to fire from the sanctuary of the church to Israeli soldiers and then to sneak back. Even in the case it goes wrong and the army follows you inside of the church you have a big propaganda victory. That women and children might get killed in that event just makes the propaganda victory sweeter for you. Both parts have shown such little concern for civilian lifes that in the case a church is stormed in the next days I wouldn't know whom to believe. The Israelis would claim they had been attacked from the church even if it was a lie and the Palestinians would say that there has been no such attack even if it would be true. Viewed from the propaganda angle, the Palestinians have to gain more than the Israelis from such an attack. So my first guess bet would be on them to lie. However, Sharon has shown so much contempt of world opinion in the last weeks and months that viewed from that angle I'd be less sure in the placement of the bet. Wolfgang |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Sanctuary for Palestinians From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Apr 02 - 04:50 AM I'd rather assume that there'd be likely to be some people with guns in any sizeable group of people taking refuge in a church, a synagogue or a mosque, in a situation where people are fleeing in terror from an invading force. That doesn't imply that a church, synagogue or mosque packed with families is a justifiable military objective.
That was essentially what I understood the quotes from Father Siryani to be conveying. And I took the comments about one-sided reporting that leaves out the Palestinian side as referring to the media in the USA, rather than in Europe. Whether it is as one-sided as has been claimed, I can't tell. From the limited amount I have seen of tye USA media coverage, it certainly appears to be a criticism with some merit.
This whole messy calamity is a bit like a shipwreck where two bunches of survivors are fighting for places in the lifeboat. The job of outsiders isn't to support one lot in throwing the others to the sharks, it's to see if there is any way of getting help to them both so they can stop hurting each other and themselves. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Sanctuary for Palestinians From: Wolfgang Date: 05 Apr 02 - 04:04 AM To criticize that reporting as being one-sided is de facto admission that we only want to hear one side of the story told--the Israeli/US side of the story! That's rubbish, at least for me. The newspaper I am reading had the 'reporters without borders' report GUEST has posted about on page 1 yesterday as the main part of an article about difficulties of reporting corecty from over there. If you feel it is necessary to post information from one side only as an antidote to the usual reporting in your country, GUEST, it is alright with me, but I still call it one-sided. If one reads the article McGrath has linked to with care one sees that it does not contradict the information I had given about armed refugees. Taking the information from all the sources it is obvious that a minority of the palestinians in at least one of the churches have arms with them. You know the evasive use of language by priests, don't you? Clearly asked whether there were weapons in the nativity church a priest (maybe the wrong word in that case) said in TV 'waepons are not allowed in church'. The question was repeated. He said "Most of them are old men, children and women." The question was repeated once more. "No weapon is used". I hate this type of talk in politicians and in priests. Father Siryani's words are full of this type of talk. Read his words under the assumption that also in his church a minority of refugees have weapons and you will see that he has not lied at any point. He only has used words that could make you think that there are no weapons, but he never has stated it explicitely beyond any doubt. "weapons are useless" doesn't mean anything for this question. "they left their weapons" doesn't mean anything again if you don't know who 'they' is, all of them or part of them. Wolfgang |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Sanctuary for Palestinians From: RichM Date: 04 Apr 02 - 11:47 PM GUEST, I don't listen to American right wing programs. I am not an American, for one thing. The majority of palestinians support and glorify suicide bombers. That's enough for me to write them off as serious in wanting to end conflict. Arafat says one thing to the world, another thing to his own people. He remains what he always was, a murderer. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Sanctuary for Palestinians From: GUEST,mg Date: 04 Apr 02 - 07:22 PM I think there is something that each of us has to do in our minds, and that is ask ourselves, and I am not being anything but sincere here, if we blame, subconsiously, the Palestinians for the Holocaust. It is so interlinked in our minds that I believe I do, and I suspect others do. We have to unlink the two. They didn't cause it. Others did. They should have had to pay a far greater cost, in terms of land particularly, than they did. Innocent people, as far as I can tell, have had to pay a terrible price for something they did not do, but we somehow suspect they did. mg |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Sanctuary for Palestinians From: GUEST Date: 04 Apr 02 - 04:51 PM The American broadcasters don't hold a candle to the BBC. The reporting of the BBC is far superior to that of the American mainstream media, despite it's flaws. We are seeing virtually no coverage of the Palestinian civilians on the ground, either in Israel proper, or in the occupied territories, on American media. That is partly due to restrictions being put on all journalists by the Israeli's (see the UN High Commissioner for Refugee's statement on this yesterday), and because they are too chicken to go into the war zones with or without their armored cars. But OMO, the poor standard of reporting by American media has much, much more to do with the fact that the US media doesn't report critically on the US government and it's so-called "national interests", and this of course includes Israel. The BBC is often not that reasonable of an alternative either, as their reporting on the anti-globalization movement, for instance, has shown. But I do believe the BBC has much higher journalistic standards than most American journalists. I think it is no coincidence the Al Jazeera network has many former BBC journalists on their payroll, and CNN is so desperate to get a long term deal w/Al Jazeera for their exclusive broadcast rights in the English speaking world. Al Jazeera isn't trying to recruit American broadcast journalists, because they just plain aren't as good as their BBC counterparts. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Sanctuary for Palestinians From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Apr 02 - 04:36 PM Do the American broadcasters carry the same range of stories on this as the BBC? The impression I have got from bulletins I have seen on cable (where every now and again a US news bulletin gets rebroadcast) is that it seems a lot more restricted when it comes to showing what it's like for the Palestinian non-combatants. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Sanctuary for Palestinians From: GUEST Date: 04 Apr 02 - 04:26 PM RichM, the historic Catholic ecclesiastical right of sanctuary allowed for criminals to receive sanctuary from the church. And I would add, there is absolutely no proof in anyone's possession that the Palestinians currently under siege in Bethlehem's Christian churches have any connections to the suicide bombers whatsoever. You are merely mimicking the Israeli/US propaganda line. If the Israelis can't get into these churches, how the hell do they know who is in them? These people fled into the churches while being fired upon by Israeli tanks, machine guns, and sniper fire. BTW, Arafat has always denounced the suicide bombers, in Arabic, on Al Jazeera television. Just because Bush keeps saying that is a "precondition" of a ceasefire, doesn't mean it hasn't already been done by Arafat. The other propaganda line getting a lot of emotional response from Americans is the "Sadam Hussein is paying suicide bombers' families" thing. Both Iraq and Iran, through social service organizations like Hamas (yes, they have social service Hamas agencies, they aren't just "terrorists"), have been compensating the Palestinian victims of Israeli violence for many, many years--not just the families of suicide bombers. Just like we have compensated the victims of 9/11. The Palestinian people are not accomplices to murder, and to make such hysterical statements merely demonstrates the person making such a statement inability to think for themselves. RichM, by making statements like that, you are simply regurgitating the vile anti-Arab hatred being spewed on the right wing American media talk shows. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Sanctuary for Palestinians From: RichM Date: 04 Apr 02 - 03:48 PM people with guns are claiming "sanctuary"? A people that glorifies so called suicide bomber 'martyrs' as doing the work of their god, are not innocent-they are accomplices to murder. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Sanctuary for Palestinians From: GUEST Date: 04 Apr 02 - 03:28 PM Thanks for the BBC link McGrath. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Sanctuary for Palestinians From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Apr 02 - 03:26 PM BBC report:
Father Siryani denied the churches were sheltering gunmen, saying that, on principle, weapons were not allowed inside. Father Siryani said his church was full of "old men, women, kids" "[The reason] they did come to the church is because the weapon is helpless and useless at this point," he said. "They left their weapons, they came to the church, there are families, old men, women, kids - this is what we have in the churches." The Church of Our Lady Fatima is just 400 metres (0.25 mile) from Manger Square, where Father Siryani said the situation at the Church of the Nativity was "very bad". "[The Israelis] are surrounding the building, with hundreds and hundreds of soldiers, heavy artillery and tanks are all over the place," he said. "Inside, they are lacking water, they are lacking medical help because some of them are injured [and] ambulances are not allowed in." |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Sanctuary for Palestinians From: GUEST Date: 04 Apr 02 - 03:26 PM It would be good to remember that many of the Palestinians inside those churches are Palestinian Christians, who also have been targeted for years by the IDF, and who continue to be considered "terrorists" by the Israelis. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Sanctuary for Palestinians From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Apr 02 - 03:22 PM < a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1910000/1910370.stm>BBC report: Father Siryani denied the churches were sheltering gunmen, saying that, on principle, weapons were not allowed inside. Father Siryani said his church was full of "old men, women, kids" "[The reason] they did come to the church is because the weapon is helpless and useless at this point," he said.
"They left their weapons, they came to the church, there are families, old men, women, kids - this is what we have in the churches."
The Church of Our Lady Fatima is just 400 metres (0.25 mile) from Manger Square, where Father Siryani said the situation at the Church of the Nativity was "very bad".
"[The Israelis] are surrounding the building, with hundreds and hundreds of soldiers, heavy artillery and tanks are all over the place," he said.
"Inside, they are lacking water, they are lacking medical help because some of them are injured [and] ambulances are not allowed in."
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Sanctuary for Palestinians From: GUEST Date: 04 Apr 02 - 02:00 PM It would also be good clarify the legality of sanctuary from the Catholic church's perspective. The ecclesiastical right of sanctuary is NOT considered a right any longer by the Roman Catholic church. The most recent cases of Catholic sanctuary have been in relation to Central American refugees, under threat of being sent back by the US Immigration authorities, being taken into Catholic and Protestant churches, to keep them from being deported. That movement, along with the Latin American Liberation Theology movement which spawned it, was denounced by the Holy See, and the LT movement destroyed in a well orchestrated campaign by the Roman bishops and the pope. I would not expect that there is an actual claim by the Catholic clergy inside the Church of the Nativity being made to provide the right of sanctuary to the Palestinians currently being held hostage there by the situation. The Italian journalist inside the church confirmed yesterday that there were also Palestinian civilians inside, and that those Palestinians who are armed, were also out of ammunition, rendering the entire group unarmed at this point. To be truly armed, I'm pretty sure you need ammo. ;-) As to the nuns administering first aid to the wounded, why would this be shocking to anyone, even if they are terrorists? If someone is wounded and bleeding all over the place, I'd like to think any human being would try and help them, ESPECIALLY NUNS!
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Sanctuary for Palestinians From: GUEST Date: 04 Apr 02 - 01:40 PM Wolfgang, how is taking information from a journalist website which criticizes both sides, being "so carefully selected" A Bad Thing, as you seem to be suggesting? What is needed is there to be a free flow of information on what is happening on the ground. I can handle conflicting reports, if I get enough of them. Because once I begin to hear the same sorts of reports coming from the same sources over and over, I can begin to distinguish between propagandazing, cheerleading, and actual reporting. The majority of information the world is being fed right now out of the West Bank is either propaganda, or cheerleading for one side or the other (mostly Israel and the US' "war on terrorism"). I WANT to hear reporting from each side--I could care less whether it is "one sided". I am perfectly capable, after decades of newswatching, of sorting the wheat from the chaff, and knowing when authorities are lying to me. Does anyone REALLY believe Ariel Sharon is going to work to build an independent Palestinian state when the violence ends, when his entire life has been dedicated to preventing it from ever happening?
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Sanctuary for Palestinians From: GUEST Date: 04 Apr 02 - 01:28 PM Again, why the complaints that reports are one sided, when there are (sic) two sides to this story? There is nothing wrong with reporting from the Palestinian perspective--clearly there is a desperate need for many international journalists to be come involved enough to do just that. This war is laregely being reported on the Jerusalem sidelines by the American mainstream press, who have taken over nearly every available news outlet on the West Bank. Yet for some reason, they don't seem to be able to interview any Palestinians for their stories! The Palestinian side of this story is not being told, and the reporting is profoundly Israeli and US centric. Profoundly. If non-American journalists can report from the West Bank, why not the American journalists, with their armored cars, their superior satellite technology, etc? With that kind of reporting power, why aren't we hearing the Palestinian side? Christiane Amanpour haranguing the Palestinian negotiators safely outside the warzone doesn't amount to reporting, period. How about a united outcry from the community of international journalists regarding Israeli censorship? Answer: because the Israeli government says they will be stripped of their credentials to report on Israel at all. Why no outcry over that side of the story? Why is that side of the story not getting on the three major US network broadcasts, hmmm? Why isn't the European press asking these questions in their own capitals, of their own governments? There have certainly been enough demonstrations in their own countries to justify looking into the one-sided (ie pro-US/Israeli) reporting among their colleagues. Of course telling the Palestinians' side of the story is one-sided. To criticize that reporting as being one-sided is de facto admission that we only want to hear one side of the story told--the Israeli/US side of the story! Not very balanced or objective reporting, now is it? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Sanctuary for Palestinians From: Grab Date: 04 Apr 02 - 07:23 AM Thanks to Guest for the links - admittedly one-sided, but I certainly hadn't seen the BBC report about British students caught in the middle and reporters being shot at by the Israelis. Graham. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Sanctuary for Palestinians From: Wolfgang Date: 04 Apr 02 - 06:31 AM I too like the idea of sanctuary. What I do like less about it in this particular instance is that a minority of the palestinians in the church still have their weapons with them. Source: Pater Raed Abusahlia (German transliteration), secretary of patriarch Sahab, speaking to international press agencies today. GUEST, I'd trust your motives and posts much more if the information you'd give was not so carefully selected. It took me less than a minute to go to the website of 'Reporters without borders' and find a complaint that Palestinian authorities have interfered with press work. Wolfgang |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Sanctuary for Palestinians From: GUEST Date: 03 Apr 02 - 04:59 PM Jews have certainly benefited from the Catholic sanctuary movements of the 20th century, which makes this standoff all the more ironic. From the Holocaust Heroes website: When the Vichy regime took over in June 1940, many Catholic prelates embraced the new administration because its Premier, Marshal Petain, spoke in theological terms of repentance and expiation of sin. And they were quiet as a church mouse when Vichy issued its anti-Jewish decrees four months later. But their indifference took a dramatic turn in the summer of 1942, when Jules-Gerard Saliege, archbishop of Toulouse, lashed out at Vichy's anti-Jewish measures. In his now famous pastoral letter, the archbishop said: "There is a Christian morality, there is a human morality that imposes duties and recognizes rights. . . Why does the right of sanctuary no longer exist in our churches? . . . The Jews are real men and women. . . They are our brothers, like so many others." The letter galvanized the faithful and helped to influence and shape public opinion and action. Sheltering refugees and children in monasteries and convents became a church industry. Besides feeding and clothing the Jews, the church institutions became clandestine factories turning out identification documents, certificates of birth, baptism and marriage to show "Aryan" lineage, ration books and even driver's licenses. One of the highly-organized rescue networks was operated by Father Marie-Benoit, a Capuchin monk in Marseille, who coordinated the refugee activity with frontier smugglers, guides and rescue groups, and is credited with saving thousands of Jewish children. In the mountain town of Ville-la-Grand near the Swiss border, the fathers of Ecole St. Francois, a Catholic seminary, shepherded hundreds of refugees safely around German guards and into Switzerland. One of the teachers, Father Louis Favre, would place the refugee children in his classroom and disguise them as pupils, with the adults posing as visiting parents. But Father Favre was arrested by the Gestapo, tortured and shot in July 1944. The widespread rescue activity by Catholic institutions drew this strong accusation from Jacques Marcy, a pro-Nazi journalist: "Every Catholic family shelters a Jew. . . Priests help them across the Swiss frontier. . . Jewish children have been concealed in Catholic schools; the civilian Catholic officials receive intelligence of a scheduled deportation of Jews, advise a great number of refugee Jews about, and the result is that about 50 percent of the undesirables escape." Paulette Fink, originally from Paris and an active member of the French underground that saved Jewish refugees from Poland, Hungary and Romania, recalled the reception and aid of the Frenchmen: "We were passing the children from one to the other, a chain with many links – priests and nuns, monasteries and convents, Catholic schools, some on farms to work as farmhands with no pay. The Catholics were fabulous, the Protestants too." The experience of Denise Caraco provides keen insight into the workings and psychology of rescue operations. The daughter of Jewish parents from Marseille, the university student joined Eclaireurs Israelites de France (Jewish Boy Scouts of France). Her task was to search the surrounding countryside and find families willing to take and hide a refugee child. At first, she placed the children with French Jewish families. "But," she explained, "not all French Jewish families wanted to be bothered. Far from it." She later met Father Marie Benoit and Pastor Jean S. Lemaire, both of whom provided Jewish rescuers with personal letters of introduction that facilitated movement from one hiding place to another. She also worked with scores of assistants, both Jewish and non-Jewish who supplied and delivered food to the sheltered refugees. Summing up her first-hand experience in the field, Caraco offered a penetrating analysis of rescue work: "No matter how effective Jewish rescue organizations were in helping people escape the camps, in finding hiding places, in supplying food and false papers and visiting people in hiding, and in obtaining funds, especially from the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee in the United States, they could never (italics are hers) have worked without the help from thousands of non-Jews. Where else could we have hidden our people?" |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Sanctuary for Palestinians From: GUEST,mg Date: 03 Apr 02 - 04:48 PM You only have to hang on to the door of the church and that should do it..that (so I have heard) is why Catholic churches have door handles you can hang on to..I don't who all is in there, and I hope it is not terrorist but ordinary citizens..I do like the idea of sanctuary though..I love the word...and what better place to offer sanctuary than the Manger church, even, as it quite possible, it is destroyed in the process. And I think one thing very good about all of this is that the decades of silent questions.."Well, they must have done something really awful (prior to terrorism) to deserve their plight", which is what I think subconsciously we thought..is going to be shattered. I finally realize that as far as I could tell the only thing they did was be on land that other people wanted and claimed. We have to diligently ferret out the truth in all this. It is complex at best, and it is filled with propaganda and disinformation, to the best of my knowledge, and I am not going to go into it here...follow the real estate trail though if you can... mg |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Sanctuary for Palestinians From: Mrrzy Date: 03 Apr 02 - 04:20 PM I didn't think it was up to the church, or any holy place, to GRANT sanctuary. I thought you went in and CLAIMED it, and the fact that it was holy ground was enough. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Sanctuary for Palestinians From: GUEST Date: 03 Apr 02 - 04:13 PM And here is this report from the Reporters Without Borders website on Israeli Defense Forces attacks on journalists: 2.04.2002 A dozen journalists under gunfire in Ramallah At least 11 journalists have come under gunfire and three of them have been hit since the Israeli army declared Ramallah a "closed military zone" and barred the media from the West Bank city, the first such ban since the start of the second Intifada in September 2000. Three others were expelled from the city, bringing to about 30 the number of journalists Israeli troops have either fired on, expelled or arrested in that time. Calling the ban on journalists "a serious new attack on press freedom" in a situation that has steadily worsened over the past few months, Reporters Without Borders (Reporters sans frontières - RSF) secretary-general Robert Ménard called today on the Israeli civilian authorities to "cancel the ban immediately". "Allowing the Israeli occupation of Ramallah to take place without media witnesses is to foment rumours and disinformation," he said. RSF is also concerned that the army's media ban was extended today to Bethlehem. RSF notes that Article 19 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights ratified by Israel guarantees the "freedom to seek, receive and impart information." Since the beginning of the second Intifada, RSF has counted 52 cases of journalists wounded by gunfire in the Occupied Territories and has established that most of the shooting was done by the Israeli army. It has several times deplored the lack of any serious army enquiry into these shootings. Italian journalist Raffaele Ciriello was killed on 13 March in Ramallah by shots from an Israeli tank. RSF appeals once again for the authorities to seriously investigate all the cases of journalists killed or wounded since September 2000. On 29 March, Carlos Handal, a cameraman for the Egyptian station Nile TV, was wounded by gunfire while on his way by car to the Lions Square in Ramallah with a colleague. On 30 March, a crew from the French TV station France 2 were fired at by Israeli troops when they wanted to pass a roadblock between East Jerusalem and Ramallah. The same day, Israeli soldiers broke into the headquarters of Palestinian TV and radio, forcing The Voice of Palestine to go off the air. The troops ordered four journalists to leave their offices. The ministry of culture building which housed a local radio and TV station was also occupied. Israeli soldiers also entered a building with offices of several Palestinian and foreign media, including the British news agency Reuters, and forced the journalists to leave. Four Turkish journalists were detained for several hours at the Ramallah press centre by Israeli soldiers who searched them, confiscated their passports and stopped them leaving the building. On 31 March, the vehicle of two Swedish journalists, Bengt Norborg and Rickard Collsiöö, special correspondents for the Swedish public TV station SVT, were the target of warning shots by Israeli troops at a roadblock on the outskirts of Ramallah. An American journalist, Anthony Shahid of the Boston Globe, was hit by in the shoulder by a bullet although he was wearing a bulletproof vest with "Press" written on it. Shahid said he did not see who fired at him but said the area was surrounded by Israeli tanks and soldiers at the time. On 1 April, Israeli soldiers expelled an American CBS News television team from Ramallah. As this was happening, a vehicle containing six Western reporters and photographers was fired on by Israeli troops near the city centre. "I think the soldiers were irritated," said one of the journalists, who refused to be named. The same day, a Palestinian journalist working for APTN (AP Television News) was hit in the leg at Beit Jala while covering a demonstration by pacifists. On 2 April, in Bethlehem, Majadi Banura, a cameraman for the Qatari TV station Al-Jazeera, was wounded in the head by a bullet while on a balcony on the fifth floor of the Star Hotel, where about 20 journalists are staying. The same day, Atta Iwisat, a photographer working for the Israeli daily Yediot Aharonot and the Gamma news agency, were arrested by Israeli soldiers when they discovered he was not properly accredited.
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Sanctuary for Palestinians From: GUEST Date: 03 Apr 02 - 03:46 PM And here are some news articles related to the peace activists and journalists fired upon by the Israelis in Bethlehem, and related sorts of stories: As Sharon Declares War, Peace Groups Struggle: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0401-01.htm Israel Holds Veteran French Activist Jose Bove: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0402-02.htm Foreign Peace Marchers Hurt as Israeli Troops Open Fire: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0401-04.htm Eight peace activists hurt in gunfire: http://www.thedailycamera.com/news/worldnation/02apeac.html Britons acting as 'human shields': http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1906000/1906570.stm Foreign Peace Activists Injured Seven marchers hurt as Israeli troops fire at a Bethlehem demonstration: http://www.msnbc.com/news/732438.asp?cp1=1
|
|
Subject: Catholic Sanctuary for Palestinians From: GUEST Date: 03 Apr 02 - 03:28 PM One thing I am fascinated by, is the American media's disbelief that the Catholics inside the Church of the Nativity have given sanctuary to all those Palestinians and internationals who entered the building to get away from the Israeli shelling and machine gun fire. CNN and the other major media outlets can't seem to decide what to report on this. I recently heard a journalist from the Palestinian Indy Media Center, Sean Riordan, being interviewed on CNN, say that the international citizens evacuated from Bethlehem today were actually evacuated by the British, not the Americans, and that those people were international peace activist brigades in the area acting as independent observers. Despite the fact that MSNBC interviewed an American Jew who is working with those international observers yesterday in Ramallah, the mainstream media seems to be dismissing the information being provided from both independent western media organizations like Indy Media, as well as the international peace activists, as "one sided"! They aren't talking at all about the Catholic premise of sanctuary, which seems to be at the crux of the current standoff between the IDF and the Vatican, no less. And of course, the fact that at least a dozen of the international peace activist/observers are still inside Arafat's compound in Ramallah. Why do people suppose the reporting of independent journalists (ie with no affiliation to any western mainstream media organizations) and international peace activists are being ignored by the mainstream western media? |