Discipline in finishing lyrics

Subject: RE: Discipline in finishing lyrics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Apr 02 - 05:21 PM

I'd think it's really best to lay aside the guitar or whatever until the song has reached a singable stage, verse and chorus, if you've got a chorus.

Then it's time maybe to work out what kind of accompaniment it needs, and which chords work best.

Generally speaking I find the chorus grows naturally out of the verse. Sometimes it's just one of the verses, with the same tune, sometimes with a modified tune, sometimes a couple of lines that started out as a verse.

Subject: RE: Discipline in finishing lyrics
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 07 Apr 02 - 04:34 PM

DaveO said Usually, for me, the words of the first verse sort of come with a tune attached. Then of course subsequent verses have to follow that tune. The same kind of thing happens with the chorus, but where the main focus in writing that first verse was on the words, the main focus in creating the chorus tends to be on the tune, to contrast and yet work with the tune of the verse, which already exists at that point.

I wonder if any of you songwriters have a method or formula for writing choruses? If you chart your music by chords, must the chorus contain any of the verse chords? I usually create a chorus almost as an afterthought, as a means of lending variety to the sound of the tune. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't.

Subject: RE: Discipline in finishing lyrics
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Apr 02 - 04:18 PM

I have to write the lyrics in one fell swoop. If I get hung up on a verse, I skip the verse and come back later. Sometimes I can't get past that verse and leave the song for another day. When that day comes, I get hung up in the same place and the song never gets finished. There's one I started writing last autumn, and I'm still stuck. Wrote the tune first (March '01), and it's just too hard to get the sort of lyrics I want to fit the tune. Very short phrases, and rhymes within lines...

For me it's easier doing the words first, then the tune, but I have to have the rhythm before anything else. It's easier for me to write tunes, though - I've never had a block of any sort. Some of them may wind up being not so good, but I can easily finish them. I suppose some folks are the other way around, and get blocked on tunes but not words.

On the other hand, sometimes when you let the song sit for a while, you'll notice mistakes, awkward words, phrases or rhymes, that you don't see right after you've written it. Sometimes, if it's just a line or two you need, it'll come to you once you're not trying so hard. It's best for me to get most of it done, then come back and edit it, not finish writing it.

Subject: RE: Discipline in finishing lyrics
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 06 Apr 02 - 10:21 AM

Far and away most of my songs I write, I write both tune and words. In only a few have I used a preexisting tune.

Now, as to when (normally) I'm creating both: Someone above suggested tune first, and words afterward. I know some like the reverse. Well, people have said I was odd for years, but I don't (normally) do either of those.

Usually, for me, the words of the first verse sort of come with a tune attached. Then of course subsequent verses have to follow that tune. The same kind of thing happens with the chorus, but where the main focus in writing that first verse was on the words, the main focus in creating the chorus tends to be on the tune, to contrast and yet work with the tune of the verse, which already exists at that point.

Once I start singing the song, however, everything tends to be up for grabs, and the tune is almost sure to be adjusted, and the words well may be.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Discipline in finishing lyrics
From: hesperis
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 05:30 PM

Huh? Some people find choruses harder to write than verses? Wow...

IanB - definitely.

I like to keep all the scraps. Occasionally I read over them and something else happens. As Nutty says, it usually ends up quite different than what I was originallly thinking of.

Really, you just have to trust the process.

Subject: RE: Discipline in finishing lyrics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 05:24 PM

A trick some people do is to write the words to an existing tune, which ensures that the lines scan and so forth.And then when the words are there, give it a new tune.

That makes sense, but I don't think I've ever done it that way. For me words and tune tend to come together. Or rather, as I get the words right, the tune is there as well when I try to sing it..

Subject: RE: Discipline in finishing lyrics
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 04:01 PM

Write the tune first -it's easier that wau round. If you've not finished the song within half an hour its not gonna get finished so ditch it!!!

Subject: RE: Discipline in finishing lyrics
From: Peg
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 10:43 AM

there was a thread a whie back that some of us writers were contributing to, and it had soem useful advice for procrastinating, inability to finish a project once started, etc. Katlaughing might be able to recall what it was...

I write lyrics too and have the same problem finishing songs as I do other stuff....

Peg

Subject: RE: Discipline in finishing lyrics
From: DonMeixner
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 06:59 AM

Elton John used to say he'd get a mess of Bernie Taupin's lyrics and he'd head to the piano. If he didn't come up with a melody first or second time through the song was tossed.

Wally Wood, the brilliant comic book artist used to keep a swipe file of his and other artists work. Very often you can see bits of the same backgrounds in sveral comics. He often would turn a planet upside down and paste it on another page. There! another world.

Some times it's necessary to do that with lyrics. Maybe the song doesn't become a song. Look at unused lines as donated organs.

Don

Subject: RE: Discipline in finishing lyrics
From: Bullfrog Jones
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 06:49 AM

Let the song come in its own time. Some arrive fully formed, some evolve, and some are hybrids where you weld together a set of verses that were hanging around to the chorus that you've just come up with.The only rule is -- there are no rules.

BJ

Subject: RE: Discipline in finishing lyrics
From: nutty
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 03:53 AM

I have plenty of bits of paper with notes jotted down .... usually a verse and/or a chorus
Every so often I read through them and (usually) at least one will settle in my mind as a complete song ....... often as something entirely different than what was first intended.

It is better if the whole song comes straight away but even then changes take place ..... fortunately I have very understanding friends at the folk club who let me "try-out" the songs in their various forms.

I find the same process is sometimes required before a tune settles in my head ...... I used to use a tape recorder but then the clips invariably got lost or taped over ......now I use the sound recorder on my PC and keep a file of 60sec sound clips.

Subject: RE: Discipline in finishing lyrics
From: Bert
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 03:41 AM

If it's worth finishing, you'll do it. Most of us song writers have the opposite problem, we finish too many songs that should be drowned at birth.

Nowadays, I don't write a song down until it is finished, it cuts down a lot on turning out too much rubbish.

Subject: RE: Discipline in finishing lyrics
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 07:31 PM

First of all, Johnny, don't let it bug you. Take all the pieces and keep them seperate from your finished songs. Choruses are always harder to write than the verses so think of all these as little nuggets waiting for those times when you can't buy a decent chorus. Kind of like a savings account.

And accept the fact that they all won't one day be songs and that's okay, too, because some will.

Subject: RE: Discipline in finishing lyrics
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 07:11 PM

I would more or less give up after a certain amount of time and put it out to other people, like here, to help you finish. If y ou wrote most of it, with a little help, tell them in advance you will take credit for the song, if that is a potential problem. mg

Subject: RE: Discipline in finishing lyrics
From: Amos
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 06:54 PM

McGrath's advice excellent. Otherwise, go back to it later and write a new song around the part begun without worrying what the original was "supposed" to be.

The discipline required is that of any writer, at which many balk: Tail In Chair, Bud; Or, Nil die Sin Linea!

Subject: RE: Discipline in finishing lyrics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 05:52 PM

Write the siong quickly. Then keep on adjusting it. More times than not every single line gets altered in some way, before a song settles down, more or less.

If it doesn't come quickly (in that very provisi0nal form) it will probably never come. But the lines you don't use might come in handy some other time.

Subject: RE: Discipline in finishing lyrics
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 04:59 PM

If I stuck all the poetic lines I've come up with, together, I'd come up with something longer than Tam Lin.... such a shame they've never all made it to fruition... Mind you, I think I'd have to turn country & western......

LTS

Subject: RE: Discipline in finishing lyrics
From: Cappuccino
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 04:15 PM

I sympathise. One day I'm going to make an album of all the choruses I've written which never got verses to go with them!

- ian B

Subject: Discipline in finishing lyrics
From: JohnnyBGoode
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 03:13 PM

It seems to work best for me when a song gets finished all at once, fairly quickly. Also if I have some lyrics pre-written, sometimes that's real handy when a musical idea comes about.

However, sometimes a song or inspiration comes along and it doesn't get finished. I may catch it on tape. I'm getting behind!

Any tips to finish songs, especially lyrics?