BS: Discussion Topics

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion Topics
From: GUEST,Roger O'K
Date: 19 Apr 02 - 03:43 PM

I'm not blue-clicky-literate yet, so I'm pasting in a posting of mine which is relevant here from the Campsite at Drumcree IV thread. By the way, the Drumcree thread is a wonderful surreal world of its own, which had me with tears of laughter streaming down my face when I discovered it. But it might be a bit arcane for some tastes, and can understand the resentment which it caused in some quarters.

On another thread, with all the arrogance of a newbie, I suggested that the site should feature a "play area" or "sandpit" for all the wildly OT stuff so that the main site wouldn't get too cluttered.

>Poor bewildered, my heart goes out to you.

It's a Northern Ireland running joke which has taken on a life of its own. In fact it could arguably stake a claim to becoming a permathread, because it started off way off topic with someone who needed to get a load off his chest about current political issues by sharing it with fellow-mudcatters, but then mysteriously drifted bang onto topic by giving rise to a good dozen parodies, many of which are in the pure folk tradition of updating old songs to new circumstances.

It's drifted back off for a while, but even when OT it contains numerous musicians' in jokes, many of which would be accessible to folkies who are not Irish - e.g. the obsession with the Corrs which permeates the Chiff & Fipple forums, or the inevitable bodhran abuse theme.

I'm a newbie myself and still learning netiquette, so I'm still signing on as a guest, but Mudcat has been a revelation. At an early stage, when I was still aglow with gratitude for all the help which I'd got from Catters in finding words to a song, I posted a critical comment about someone lowering the tone of the site with some rather sharp political comments. But of course, I was the one who was wrong, because folk song (not least of the US variety) would be a mere shadow of itself if you took out the political content and commentary on current affairs.

On a quiet day at work I went right back to the start of the Drumcree threads and read on from there, which is the only way to make sense of this magnificently surreal phenomenon. The original posting takes ages to download, and someone kindly put it up on a website at

http://members.atozasia.com/munster/Drumcree1.htm

(sorry about the unblue unclickiness) where it's much easier to print and read, if you're interested in Drumcree itself. If you want to know more about the Northern Ireland situation as a whole, another contributor to the thread posted the URL of a trustworthy online archive run by a university at

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/cainbgn/index.html

- otherwise just skim through Brendy's magnum opus at the Drumcree site to get a flavour of the background then move on to where the fun begins at

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=43154

Beware, especially if you suffer from the German/American disease (spot the troll ;-) of literal-mindedness: not everything on this thread is to be taken at face value, and most if not all of the abuse is firmly tongue in cheek. Also, you will probably realise after a while that not all the postings in the name of famous musicians have necessarily been put up by the musicians in question. Likewise, Sean Pol O'Tuathail is Pope John Paul II, and he probably didn't really write the last posting.

But if you can spare the time, it will expand your consciousness in ways you could never have imagined.

And thanks to Mooman for encouraging me to go back to source on this mother and father of all threads (cue Iraq thread drift).

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion Topics
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 19 Apr 02 - 09:04 AM

refresh

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion Topics
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 10:49 PM

Spaw -- I've no doubt that old posts have value. History is also something that folk music is very much about. I've had an experience very similar to the reading old posts.

Near the end of yhe 70's I wrote for a short lived entertainment weekly called Chicagolnd Spotlight. It folded with the publisher owing almost everyone money. He paid me back in a most unique manner.

He went to the office closet and took down a stack of faded mimiographed sheets of paper that were stapled together about five or six sheets at a time. He apologized for not having any money and said that he was leaving town and didn't have any good way to pack the papers and that he was sure that I would give them the care they deserved. the sheets turned out to be a nearly complete run of the folk music magazine Broadside (New York).

I have gaurded them fiercely ever since.

About six months ago, I got ambitious (meaning that I had a three day weekend with nothing to do and was bored out of my skull)and read the entire run end to end. It was a remarkable education both in the evolution of songwriting and politics as we know them today.

Nobody will ever be able convince me that writings of the past have no value.

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion Topics
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 10:17 PM

Hi Stephen.....You're doing fine. The 2 cent history is that at first Mudcat was pretty much totally music discussion. About 4 years ago the place began to grow and with the growth came some other things. Mudcat began to develop a "village" atmosphere and we became a little more BS than had been the norm. We fought over this and occasionally still do, but the threads were often tied to music and a lot of good songs WERE written as a result of some of those BS threads. Along the way we lost some of the more scholarly types who found the BS objectionable, but many stayed and the thread mix became reasonably liveable for all. It swings back and forth and at the moment, even I, an inveterate BSer, believe we're a little long on BS and short on music....but I figure it will swing back again as time passes.

There is plenty of room for additional info to be added to or started about songs, instruments, and other music topics. Take a look at a thread called "Origins of -Found on Mudcat" and you can get the idea of songs that have been discussed and see what can be added or new suggestions for additional history of trad and other songs.

If you haven't checked the Mudcat Songbook, you can do that and see how many songs came from threads and the challenges that Mario mentioned. one reason that a lot of "music" threads such as lyrics requests and even the history threads drop down so quickly is becasue we have been discussing them before and there is less and less info available. Lyrics requests are often quickly answered through an old thread that already has a history of the song on it.

One thing that bothers me is that when a question is asked or a topic comes up and I or one of the older members links some previous threads on the subject, it is NOT to stifle discussion. It is simply a way of getting more answers from more people, some of whom may no longer be posting. The fact that we can pull up any thread here is a great thing because it gives us more opinions and more information....some of it may be exactly what someone is looking for. I get pissed at folks who say, "That was then, this is now," because much of the information is as good now as ever.

There is plenty of room for all kinds of threads whether it's researching a song or just having a laugh. I would hope that we all can see that and and also keep in mind that what brought us all here was the music and be sure that we continue the threads that keep others attracted here too.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion Topics
From: IvanB
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 09:30 PM

I'm probably one of those who'd prefer more discussion related to folk and blues music, although I've never before stated it in a thread. Mudcat will be what it will be, and I doubt that the most curmudgeonly of the 'folk and blues music discussion only' crowd will have any great effect on its evolution.

For me, the result of the mix as it exists presently is that it takes me only a fraction of the time I used to spend perusing Mudcat threads. OTOH, often my wife asks 'did you hear/know....?' and I'm suddenly reminded of some thread title, over which I skipped, that probably refers to the subject of her question. And, about 90% of the time, it does.

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion Topics
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 07:36 PM

We have to have a reason to come here
I like the balance more or less.
cracks to circumvent commercial software and such has been severely frowned upon, and quite rightly.
Folk music is the core of "here" and folk can be stretched to the pursuits and rituals of people (now or then) so we can be a broad church
& I always justify the likes of light bulb jokes because it is what we do now, and on an intelectual level it gives a succinct statement of what we think of certain professions or corners of culture, they are throw-away, and nobody values them after they have been launched.
Now pardon me for the leap of faith, but did not Cecil Sharp find that his "source" did not rate or over value the kind of songs he sang in the pub and was baffled by a posh gent getting so agitated over a throw-away song.
we don't value what we are surrounded with cos it will always be there.
at this micro level history has taught us - NO!

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion Topics
From: MMario
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 07:33 PM

I think Stephen should take a look back through the CHALLENGE! topics and try a few!

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion Topics
From: kendall
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 07:22 PM

There can never be too much humor in my world.

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion Topics
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 07:15 PM

Amos -- Thankyou.

Subject: RE: BS: Discussion Topics
From: Amos
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 07:05 PM

Well, Stebve, you're pretty quick. We (in the Mudcat community) have gone up one side of this discussion and down the other for about two hundred years worth of subjective time, throwing brickbats and caterwauling worse than tom cats on Halloween, and here you come along and come down plainly on the most rational and enlightened side of the issue in five minutes flat.

if you write songs that fast I better start worrying about my mantlepiece collection! :>)

Reghards,

A

Subject: Discussion Topics
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 06:59 PM

I realize that I'm new here and should probably just keep my mouth shut and go along with the program. I'm probably about to open a huge can of worms and it may get me in trouble. That would be most unpleasant because i like it here. It's interesting, intellectually stimulating and a heck of a lot of fun. However, that sort of thing has never stopped me before. so, here goes nothin'.

There have been quite a few posts in quite a few threads complaining (griping? kvetching?) that this site should be for music related dicussions only. I'm as guilty as anyone of starting nonmusical threads. I've started two threads in as many days that consist entirely of jokes on a given topic. let's face it we ALL love the opportunity to make a joke. Some of us have gag files that would rival that of the late, great Milton Berle and haven't used half of them yet. I've noticed, however that the complaint comes up occasionally on those threads which discuss politics, war, social policy, health related issues or other topics important to human dicourse.

Though I am new here, it has been my impression that our main focus is Folk Music. However one may wish to define the term (see thread:What is folk music), there is no mystery surrounding what folk music is about. It about ALL of the things that people do: living, dying,working, raising children, worrying, loving, hating, waging war, waging peace, getting sick, getting well, etc.

I have no doubt that more than one or two of us have written songs based on coversations had within the vitual walls of Mudcat. Doesn't that, however peripherally, contribute to the music as a whole?

It seems to me that anything involving people should be a fair topic for this chat room.

If you hold a different opinion -- COOL! That's why I've started this thread.

Stephen