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Opus Dei: Is there a musical tradition?
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Opus Dei: Is there a musical tradition? |
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Subject: RE: Opus Dei: Is there a musical tradition? From: GUEST Date: 11 Oct 02 - 01:17 PM Josemaria Escrivá de Balaguer made the pronouncement; "Our life is a warfare of love, and in love and war all is fair." This seems to have become the guiding principle for members of Opus Dei. There is no musical tradition in any of the writings that I found. No musical traditions are mentioned in biographical write-ups. |
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Subject: RE: Opus Dei: Is there a musical tradition? From: Amergin Date: 11 Oct 02 - 01:06 PM uh seamus....it is october..... |
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Subject: RE: Opus Dei: Is there a musical tradition? From: Wilfried Schaum Date: 11 Oct 02 - 02:17 AM The founder, Josemaría Escrivá, was sanctified this week (http://www.opusdei.org/art.php?w=19&p=4668) To the original question: Opus Dei doesn't seem to have a musical tradition, since nobody could answer the question affirmative. The congregation's penitential exercisese were somtimes discussed in the German TV. Wilfried |
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Subject: RE: Opus Dei: Is there a musical tradition? From: Seamus Kennedy Date: 11 Oct 02 - 12:32 AM Hey, is that our Little John Cameron posting up there on July 15th 02 at 9:43 pm? Where the heck are you posting from 5 days in the future, LJC? Seamus |
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Subject: RE: Opus Dei: Is there a musical tradition? From: GUEST Date: 10 Oct 02 - 09:09 PM Opus Dei founder Josemaria Escrivá de Balaguer was taken another fast-track step towards sainthood by the pope last week, according to a news broadcast that I heard. A fan of Irish author Bartholomew Gill, I have just started his "The Death of an Irish Sinner," published 2001. The back page write-up on the paperback says, "it draws his (ongoing protagonist, Peter McGarr), "ever closer to Opus Dei. A secret order of religious zealots devoted to enforcing the Lord's edicts no matter what the cost in money- or human life- it has snared the dedicted policeman in its lethal web." Should be an interesting read. |
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Subject: RE: Opus Dei: Is there a musical tradition? From: toadfrog Date: 10 Oct 02 - 08:09 PM Joe: Thanks for the link. We definitely have Opus Dei's in San Francisco. Pooka: I don't think it is a frivolous thread. As Joe says, "Opus Dei" has two meanings, and some people appear to have confused them |
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Subject: RE: Opus Dei: Is there a musical tradition? From: little john cameron Date: 15 Jul 02 - 09:43 PM A few years ago there was a CBC television show this bunch.There wasn't anything musical that I saw. OPUS DEI |
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Subject: RE: Opus Dei: Is there a musical tradition? From: The Pooka Date: 15 Jul 02 - 07:49 PM My my. / The threadstarter serious-question was "Is there a musical tradition?" That's what this thread is doing on Mudcat. (Not that we don't have plenty of "pure" BS threads. Who keeps starting those frivolous things, anyway? :) / Now, Joe Offer's good research indicates No, there isn't. To wax Hypothetical (and then Hypothetical can wax me, if she wants to): IF there WERE such a tradition, our negative consensus re Opus Dei as an organization ought not necessarily to color our judgement of the music. *Much* religious music serves ends, or derives from sources, that we may not like; but nevertheless includes some of the finest music ever made. (Including lots of Bluegrass, by the way.) Recently there was a thread about a song praising kindly Uncle Joe Stalin. Joe Stalin was a very bad man and Stalinism was a very bad system; but it was a pretty good song. Leni Riefstenstahl (spelling? sorry) and D.W. Griffith made excellent films honoring, respectively, Adolf Hitler and the Ku Klux Klan. Their films were high art. And so forth. / Now granted, it's kind-of moot in this case if Opus Dei ain't musical anyway. But still--well, you see the point. / OK, now it's *everybody's* turn to Wax the Poox. / Ohyeah -- I attended Georgetown University (Jesuit) in Washington D.C. waaaay back in the '60's. *Those* U.S. Jesuits (Jevvies, we called 'em) were not particularly right-wing, even back then. Indeed, some were left activists and advisors to leftist student groups. |
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Subject: RE: Opus Dei: Is there a musical tradition? From: Hrothgar Date: 15 Jul 02 - 06:38 AM I have always had suspicions about Opus Dei because, to my lay Catholic taste, they always seemed too much like the Masons. That is a nice little irony in itself. I can well believe that there is no relationship between the Jesuits and Opus Dei because a lot of people don't really trust the Jesuits either. I think that dates back to the influence they had in that Pollyanna-like organisation, the Inquisition. |
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Subject: RE: Opus Dei: Is there a musical tradition? From: mooman Date: 12 Jul 02 - 05:57 AM I was educated (very well but not particularly enjoyably!) by the Jesuits like The Plumber and never heard mention of Opus Dei while at school. However, a ex-pupil did try to recruit me into it while I was at university. Being highly averse and allergic to any form of "secret society" and having learned a little about Opus Dei in the interim, I naturally declined. But I do know that they wield a fair bit of influence through their members in the establishment and business and this worrys me greatly. To bring a musical perspective in I never found the Js particularly strong in musical tradition (although the Christian Brothers had a strong "beat") and I don't believe music plays any significant role in Opus Dei activities. Best regards, mooman |
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Subject: RE: Opus Dei: Is there a musical tradition? From: Joe Offer Date: 12 Jul 02 - 02:00 AM Click here for an article about Opus Dei from the National Catholic Reporter (NCR). NCR and the Jesuit weekly America are probably the top left-of-center Catholic publications in the U.S. I subscribe to both, and have never seen a favorable word about Opus Dei in either publication. However, I'd say their attitude toward Opus Dei is disdain, not alarm - although there was a general expression of disgust when Pope John Paul II showed favor to Opus Dei by declaring it a "personal prelature" and beatifying the founder of the organization. This article (click) in the Journal News (Westchester, New York) gives a pretty good explanation of the organization and its work. I did a fair amount of checking, and still can't see any evidence of a Jesuit-Opus Dei connection (although the Jesuits haven't been overly pleased with the general this Pope appointed for them). One of the Nostradamus sites has some wacky stuff that ties Opus Dei with the end of the world and all the hooey that goes with that, but I refuse to put any credence in that. There is a lot of spooky information out there - this site (click) shows incontrovertible proof the the Jesuits assassinated John F. Kennedy, and Opus Dei was also involved somehow. But no, no evidence of a musical tradition. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Opus Dei: Is there a musical tradition? From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar Date: 11 Jul 02 - 01:05 PM Not sure what this discussion is doing on Mudcat. But, for what it's worth, I believe that the present Pope imposed an Opus Dei joker as Father General on the Jesuits, and that this was not a popular decision with the troops. The fact that both organisations were founded by Spaniards may have added to the confusion, but my guess is that any of the Jesuits whom I know would look with great suspicion on Opus Dei. The Jesuits mean different things to different people. I got a great education from them in Ireland, whereas in France and Spain they used to have a very conservative image, though a commitment to academic excellence is a key value of the order. |
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Subject: RE: Opus Dei: Is there a musical tradition? From: Joe Offer Date: 11 Jul 02 - 02:51 AM Here's the entry from Richard McBrien's HarperCollins Encyclopedia of Catholicism (1995). I consider the book to have a pretty balanced point of view.
Now, if you are referring to Opus Dei as the "liturgy of the hours," there is a rich musical tradition, since these prayers were originally all chanted. As for the organization, McBrien says about all I know. I gather that a lot of people in the "intelligentsia" in the Catholic Church think of Opus Dei as a source of regular annoyance. The organization and its members do seem to have a good amount of money, and they have a reasonable amount of political clout - both within the Catholic Church and with some European governments. Yeah, it does have some of the aspects of a cult, I suppose. And no, I haven't heard of the organization having much of a musical tradition. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Opus Dei: Is there a musical tradition? From: Joe Offer Date: 11 Jul 02 - 01:48 AM I can't say I know too much about Opus Dei, except that it's a right-wing organization within the Catholic Church. It has been in disfavor at times, but the current pope seems to think favorably of it. The Jesuits are generally quite liberal these days, and aren't known to be thick with Opus Dei. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Opus Dei: Is there a musical tradition? From: Alice Date: 11 Jul 02 - 01:29 AM I have worked in the last ten years helping people who have have gotten out of groups that are unethical in their recruitment and indoctrination of members. Opus Dei is one. Being raised a Catholic, I was shocked when I researched the destructive aspects of Opus Dei. Be careful of it. More can be found here: Cultic Studies Journal. |
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Subject: RE: Opus Dei: Is there a musical tradition? From: harpgirl Date: 10 Jul 02 - 09:34 PM eeek! I meant Robert Hanssen, "The Spy Next Door"....well, I emailed my question to the organization. wonder if I get an answer....hg |
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Subject: RE: Opus Dei: Is there a musical tradition? From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 10 Jul 02 - 09:21 PM The pope is not in favor of separation of church and state. Opus Dei is a conservative organization based on Spanish catholicism (Where many in the hierarchy supported Franco and the fascists) but, like other groups, cannot be evaluated wholly on the basis of the views of its founder. As a whole, its tenets are supported by the Church hierarchy. We do not hold those views in most western democracies- although the "Under God" pledge is (I feel) undermining the separation. Opus Dei must be assessed as an organization under the umbrella of the Catholic Church, its founder beatified by the hierarchy. I cannot agree (atheistic or at best a tree-hugger) with the tenets of the Catholic Church or any church, but misinformation such as that posted by mesophist spawns intolerance. |
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Subject: RE: Opus Dei: Is there a musical tradition? From: mack/misophist Date: 10 Jul 02 - 08:58 PM Sorry Dicho, in the past decade I must have seen a dozen or more articles about how they are the 'civil' arm of the Jesuits. At least 2 of those articles quoted THE PEOPLE DOING THE FLAGELLATION as saying the order was penitential. Willy-O is correct. They're infamous for their secrecy; and widely feared for their influence, even in Spain. |
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Subject: RE: Opus Dei: Is there a musical tradition? From: Willie-O Date: 10 Jul 02 - 08:49 PM I just spent half an hour on a post then accidentally trashed it. Sorry, no energy to recreate the thoughts. But I'd submit that this is a highly secretive organization and their own website is not going to give you the whole picture, or most of the picture, about what they do. Heard of separation of church and state? They're agin it.
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Subject: RE: Opus Dei: Is there a musical tradition? From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 10 Jul 02 - 08:01 PM Go to Opus Dei Founded by Josemaria Escriva in 1928. The organization has nothing to do with the Jesuits (SJ). They are not a penitential group. The founder was beatified by the pope; flagellation is not recognized. Mesophist's post is nonsense. Not a Catholic but misinformation is of benefit to no one. |
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Subject: RE: Opus Dei: Is there a musical tradition? From: mack/misophist Date: 10 Jul 02 - 07:44 PM To tell the truth, I have no idea. Consider the circumstances, however. The SJ has little or no musical tradition. Members of Opus Dei start off in communities but are sent 'into the world' as soon as they're felt to be trustworthy. There's not much room in that life for a musical tradition. Also recall that they do hair shirts and flagellation. That's just not conducive. |
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Subject: Opus Dei: Is there a musical tradition? From: harpgirl Date: 10 Jul 02 - 07:39 PM I read a recent book about Robert Hansson, a member of Opus Dei. This is a serious question, folks.....hg |
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