Improbable songs, unlikely singers

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 04:37 PM

You've got hold of the wrong end of the stick Orac. Nothing to do with Running Bear or anything like that.

The song which was ascibed by mistake to Johnny Horton was a very different and vicious race hate song, which was actually recorded by a sicko going under the name Johnny Rebel; since Johnny Horton wrote a song called Johnny Reb this led to the misunderstanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: Orac
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 07:14 AM

Is someone here saying that "Running Bear" is racist... I really don't understand why ... It seems that too many read too much into quite innocent songs. All this "native american" stuff is nonsense. When you visit reservations you find the people there call themselves "Indians" ... everywhere advertises "Indian jewellry" etc... When you have left you go by signs that say "you have just missed the last chance to buy genuine Indian jewellry". Anyone with a knowledge of English knows that the word "indian" nowadays means the same as "native". Hence "south American Indians" ... None of this is being racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: Art Thieme
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 08:41 PM

I'll risk destroying my image by telling you that I often did rather quiet and pretty banjo arrangements of pop songs like "Tammy", "As Time Goes By", "Ye Sir, She's My Baby", "San Antonio Rose". My more trad fans rebelled---but to no avail.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 08:18 PM

Reviving this to give more chance that people who haven't been back to the thread might catch up on the good news that Johnny Horton doesn't in fact seem to have been the racist he was temporarily alleged to have been.

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 11:42 AM

Good news. I was looking again at that face on the Johnny Horton site I linked to, and at the pictures of him with Johnny Cash who was a mate of his, and that racist shit of "Johnny Rebel" just didn't seem to match up with the man who wrote "Johnny Reb", with its note of respect towards Abraham Lincoln and all.

From the search returns I obtained, I can see how the error crept in. I'm glad its cleared up now.

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: belfast
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 10:30 AM

I think it's time for the grovelling and shamefaced apologies mentioned in an earlier posting. I have just reread some info that I received from McGrath of Harlow. It now seems to me, despite what I posted a few minutes ago, that I was wrong in all senses of the word. There seems to be good reason for believing that Johnny Horton was not responsible for the racist songs that I came across. I am really annoyed with myself and I'm more than grateful to McGrath of Harlow for pulling me up on this. He made the effort to check some facts, which, of course, is what I should have done. My apologies to all of you. And to Johnny Horton.

And now I can listen to "North to Alaska" with a cheerful mind.

While writing out one thousand times "I will be more careful in future"

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: belfast
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 09:52 AM

On the question of Johnny Horton and racist songs it seems to me that I was probably right but I'm still a bit annoyed with myself for making a derogatory statement about someone without having more irrefutable evidence. I simply hadn't considered the possibility of mislabeled mp3's, impostor, etc. And possibly other explanations that I haven't yet thought of. In other words, when I first made that statement there was no doubt in my mind; now there is an incredibly irritating tiny doubt.

And my point is that whether I am wrong or right I should have been a lot more careful.

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 09:20 PM

What I'm hoping it'll turn out to be is that some search engine or other has got confused by the fact that Johnny Horton wrote and recorded a (non-racist)song called Johnny Reb, and that there's a racist who's put out out some viciously racist songs under the name Johnny Rebel.

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: Bullfrog Jones
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 07:51 PM

I genuinely don't know if Johnny Horton recorded racist material or not, but I have found that downloaded mp3's are sometimes not who and what they claim to be.

BJ

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 01:57 PM

Did a bit of chasing around, and found the lyrics of what I take to be the main song belfast was talking about. (I found a link to an mp3 ot Johnny Horton singing it too, but I decided against downloading it.)

Assuming they're his lyrics and it's his song - because they were on a site relating to a version of it by someone else - he was clearly a very messed-up man when he wrote it. I can see why they leave it off that discography on the link I gave, which has songs like Woody Guthrie's Sinking of the Reuben James.

There are some pretty nasty things and pretty nasty people out there in the byways of the net.

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: belfast
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 09:06 AM

I can only approve of the caution displayed by McGrath of Harlow a couple of postings back. I think my own response if I had heard this statement, without even a hint of proof, would be to treat it with a degree of skepticism. In fact, my first response on reading the doubt expressed by McGrath of Harlow was a sense of horror. Perhaps I had made a mistake, misremembered. In my head I began preparing shamefaced withdrawals, grovelling apologies.

First I went back to my source. I had come across the Johnny Horton songs in WinMX,a shared files program – you know the kind of thing, a million or something people with access to the mp3's in each others' computer. I've just been back to it and I typed "Johnny Horton" into the search engine. There were over 600 results and there, along with "Running Bear", "North To Alaska" etc. was the scattering of racist songs that I mentioned.

Now it is true that these songs were recorded a half a century ago and it is unfair to judge the past by the standards of today but it is fair to remember that these songs come at the beginning of the Civil Rights movement. Songs were an important weapon in that struggle. And these racist songs were a weapon against humanity and common decency.

By the bye, I also noticed one called "Frank Black & the Catholics". I'm a little bit intrigued. What could it possibly be about? I was tempted to download it but there were 10 others in the queue. And life is short.

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: JJ
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 07:55 AM

Thanks, Murrary!

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 04:28 AM

"Who was the fellow who recorded "I Am the Very Model of a Modern Major General" as "I Am the Very Model of a Modern Folk Musician?"

(Pronounced "Mu-si-ci-an" to fit the meter)

This was written and recorded by the very talented Mike Agranoff

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Sep 02 - 08:54 PM

This site has, among other stuff, has a discography of Johnny Horton, and there don't seem to be any song titles matching what belfast reported, and therte's a lot of songs there as recorded one way and another.

Not that that means too much, since songs can have different titles. But I'm always cautious about making judgements about people who've been dead a long time (1960 in this case), and who lived in very different times.

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: Melani
Date: 08 Sep 02 - 05:29 PM

I'm assuming, Hrothgar, that you know that Elvis's "Love Me Tender" is the same tune as "Aura Lee", so it's not really that weird to imagine him singing the original. I am unhappy to hear about Johnny Horton's nasty recordings. His version of "The Battle of New Orleans" was the first record I ever bought in my life, for 50 cents when I was eight years old, and I've still got it.

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: JJ
Date: 08 Sep 02 - 09:58 AM

I have recently come into possession of an MGM LP (E-4431) entitled:

Sebastian Cabot, actor a dramatic reading with music Bob Dylan, poet

Yes, Sebastian Cabot, the wonderful British character actor best known for his role as Mr. French, the butler, on "A Family Affair," here recites the lyrics to Dylan songs against the music.

The results might be charitably described as misguided...

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: Bullfrog Jones
Date: 08 Sep 02 - 05:57 AM

During the punk era, Paul Jones (Manfred Mann/Blues Band), for some unexplained reason, put out a double A sided single of Pretty Vacant and Sheena Is A Punk Rocker!

BJ

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: Hrothgar
Date: 08 Sep 02 - 05:11 AM

Elvis Presley - Aura Lea?

:-))

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: GUEST,Glade
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 09:31 PM

I think it was in the 80's or early 90's that Donny Osmond recorded an album of susposedly gritty, street-wise hard-times music complete with a cover photo of him with a Miami Vice style beard. Not a song, but I heard a radio programme with Marie Osmond doing a Dadaist poem - kinda cool - she really let 'er rip!

Bill D: Yma Sumac's version of 16 Tons - love it!

Glade

p.s. Please don't hate me for bashing Donny Osmond (or for mentioning him either).

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 09:26 AM

I heard a running joke about songs Ethel Merman should have sung, like Sound of Silence, or, my favorite, "Listen! Do you want to know a secret!! Let me whisper in your eeear!!! Wo owoh!!! Closer!!! etc.

I also heard if you play Pat Boone's heavy metal record backwards, nobody notices.

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 05:04 AM

Not actually true this but a good joke. In the Punk era Frank Ifield re-releases a new version of his greatest hit updated and re-titled 'I Remember You - You Pillock'

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 04:05 AM

Correction to my last post: LD CD in question is "Roots of..." not "Originals", I was confusing it with another LD CD "Originals..."
Damn CRS!
RTtS (Open the cage, ma)

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: CraigS
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 06:35 PM

Has no-one heard the Rolf Harris version of Stairway To Heaven? Does no-one remember when David Bowie sung Little Drummer Boy as a duet with Bing Crosby? Am I getting old ...

By the way, the latest single from John Otway is a strange version of Disco Inferno, called Bunsen Burner.

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: belfast
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 10:36 AM

"I'm curious; what is the racist song that Johnny Horton recorded?" asks Rich M.,

Believe me, the very titles of the songs, there are two of them, are offensive and I have no wish to repeat them. They contain (appalling euphemism) the N-word. I downloaded them suspecting that there might be some kind of postmodernist irony like Randy Newman's song "Rednecks". Nope. Straightforward rascist filth.

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 10:27 AM

In my post above "lie" should have been "like" and yes, LD was of Irish descent born in Glasgow but brought up in England. During National Service in Germany he met US troops and enjoyed their music, he was also hooked on US broadcasts (AFN)and haunted the record library at US embassy to learn more. Interesting CD of his influences "Origins of L.D." has come out recently: Leadbelly & Guthrie, of course, but also Josh White, Hank Williams, Leroy Carr and the great Lonnie Johnson among others.
RtS

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: JJ
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 08:57 AM

Who was the fellow who recorded "I Am the Very Model of a Modern Major General" as "I Am the Very Model of a Modern Folk Musician?"

(Pronounced "Mu-si-ci-an" to fit the meter)

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: Jim McLean
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 07:17 AM

I heard Rambling Jack Elliot singing 'I belong to Glasgow', in the early sixties, in Glasgow, and Pete Seeger singin 'The Scottish Breakaway.
Jim Mclean

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: songs2play
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 06:59 AM

Have recently heard Pat Boone singing the Deep Purple song Smoke On The Water.

'Fraid not Pat.

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: rich-joy
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 06:34 AM

Rolf Harris's "Sun Arise" (music is authentic Australian Aborignal chant) was done by Alice Cooper in 1971 "Love it to Death" album ...

haven't heard it yet, though ... Cheers! R-J

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 06:14 AM

I think it's tough to beat Pat Boone's Heavy Metal CD. What was he thinking?

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 03:48 AM

belfast - in your post above.

"Dammit. I thought that Lonnie Donegan was from Glasgow (a piece of stupidity on my part when you consider his accent). This would have explained his recording of a couple of rebel songs."

Your original thought is correct. Lonnie Donegan was born in Glasgow but his family moved to London when he was quite young (my source for this information was his cousin who I used to work with).

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 12:18 AM

Many years back, at the Philadelphia Folk Festival, Pat Sky, Tom Paxton and a few others performed some Gilbert and Sullivan. They had fun with it and so did the audience. Modern Major General was one of the pieces they did. I think Sky also recorded it.

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 09:55 PM

ok...for you older folk..*grin*...Yma Sumac doing "16 Tons"...

and maybe Vaughn Monroe's medly of Scottish mouth music!

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: Bullfrog Jones
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 06:49 PM

Roger old lad, when Lonnie sang World Cup Willie was the only time we DID win!

BJ

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 05:23 PM

I'd like to hear Elvis do The Troubadour's Song or Nightingale's Song or whatever it is called! Maybe he could lay down "Blue Denim Jackets" on the back side.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 05:17 PM

That Dylan sneer would work very well with some Gilbert and Sullivan patter songs. After all, the knack of sticking an improbable number of syllables into a tune, that's vintage Dylan. And the thing with the patter songs is that the tunes are normally pretty minimal, which would suit Dylan well enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 04:47 PM

Peter Paul and Mary: I Got Ma Mojo Workin' backed by Jelly, Jelly, Jelly

A

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 04:40 PM

Dylan singing Gilbert and Sullivan. Now that really gives me the galloping snickers! I'd like to hear him try to get through "The Nightmare Song" from Iolanthe without chipping a tooth.

How about Joan Baez singing The Ballad of the Green Berets? Probably won't happen. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: M.Ted
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 03:25 PM

And more curious about Elvis being a rightwinger--

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: RichM
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 03:12 PM

I'm curious; what is the racist song that Johnny Horton recorded?

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 12:59 PM

Over the Rainbow:Willie Nelson

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 12:24 PM

Here is the thread about that Martin Carthy documentary (and a concert of his they ran along with it.

And I gather he sings Heartbreak Hotel on a recent album.

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 12:09 PM

Last year ,on one of the turner Broadcasting channels they put on a "Tribute to Joni mitchel" ,with lady Joni sitting looking on and listening in perched within one of the choice balcony boxes, and I saw Richard Thompson perform "Woodstock" and it was a gem of a rendition with his vocal stylization giving this classic song a sage/bard legitimacy that makes this work continue to refine with age..... so long as the singer knows what they want to put into with it. Ya get wht ya give, I s'pose.

I've seen stray hopes voiced on the net requesting that TBS release this as DVD someday. James Taylor,Dianna Krall, class acts all with Lady Joni having the last word in song as is fitting.

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: Willie-O
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 11:46 AM

Dick Gaughan recorded "Let It Be Me" on his recent album Redwood Cathedral.

Weird, but it works. Of course, Gaughan has a natural way with slooooooowwwww songs.

However, it wouldn't go in the opposite direction. I really can't see Barry Manilow covering "Worker's Song", or Celine Dion doing a tribute of Holly Near's greatest feminist anthems.

Yikes.

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: belfast
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 11:36 AM

Dammit. I thought that Lonnie Donegan was from Glasgow (a piece of stupidity on my part when you consider his accent). This would have explained his recording of a couple of rebel songs. After all, these were recorded in the late 50's or early 60's. I mean, Kevin Barry, pretty ubiqitous, but "My only son, etc", that's pretty obscure. He didn't hear that in Woodford Green.

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 11:07 AM

'Dubya' singing "Give peace a chance" ??

Highly unlikely

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: GUEST,Jonathan Byrne
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 10:45 AM

Let's not forget that a lot of those collectors that we revere and to whom we all owe a debt would often ignore their sources when they sang "improbable songs", music hall stuff (the equvalent of pop music). And if the "serious" composers were happy enough to raid the traditional music of the people, surely it's okay for the folkies to take what they want from wherever they like.

BTW the album where tom jones sings with the chieftains is one of the great albums of all time esp the track with the stones.

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 10:41 AM

Lonnie used to lie to remember his Celtic roots at times despite his Woodford Green upbringing. I think his all-time turkey was "World Cup Willie" (no wonder we didn't win!).
RtS

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 10:06 AM

In a radio interview the actor Jeremy Irons said he played and sang "mostly Bob Dylan songs." I'd like to hear what that sounds like.

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 09:23 AM

Well, I 'd like to hear Bob Dylan doing Gilbert and Sullivan stuff just for whoops and grins. A Modern Major General, and Titwillow, for starters...

Then maybe we could get Johnny Cash to sing "Plaisir d'Amour" Or Jimmy Buffett laying down the groove on "A Wandering Minstrel I" backed by "A Bird in A Gilded Cage" or even "Alabama Coon".

A.

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: GUEST,alvin
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 09:16 AM

The great Lonnie Donegan singing Kevin Barry? I love it. Paul Robeson, I think, did it too. And the hamburger disposal factory doing the First Time? Not bad, not as good as Roberta, and certainly not as good as Paggy Seeger. I actually own an ancient single of Horton's North to Alaska. If the info given in the first posting proves to be accurate I may be tempted to melt it down. Or is this the equivalent of book-burning? What Carthy documentary? Why do other people get better programs on their tv's than me? All I can find is big brother, very soft porn, eastenders, etc - someone else is getting Martin Carthy singing Heartbreak Hotel?!

Hey, I just thought - Tom Jones recording with the Chieftains!

Subject: RE: BS: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 08:30 AM

Martin Carthy sang a great Heartbreak Hotel on the documentary they had about him on TV a couple of months ago.

Subject: Improbable songs, unlikely singers
From: belfast
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 07:35 AM

I recently downloaded a couple of unusal tracks – Lonnie Donegan singing "Kevin Barry" and "My Only Son Was Shot In Dublin". Implausible but not impossible.

Somewhat more unlikely, I thought, was the recording by a drug-abusing rightwinger of a tender lovesong penned by an implacable communist revolutionary. Elvis singing "The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face" by Ewan MacColl.

Most disturbing and unpleasant was to find that Johnny Horton whose "North to Alaska" was a childhood favourite of mine had also recorded some of the nastiest rascist shite I have ever come across. Which has spoiled "North to Alaska" for me.

You just never know who will record what.