Intimidation and hate

Subject: RE: Intimidation and hate
From: The Pooka
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 02:51 AM

"Enough with your tired old republican slurs Pooka.../...Now that is a pure drop dead brilliant strategy Larry."

O RO IT'SH A PURRRE DEAD DROP O' TH' PURE IZZSHIT!! An' iff it twere, not a shcorched sschtone would be left upon a scone o' yer foine house, Shquirre Guessht...Shlurrs me arsshe.. urp.. 'schcushe me

Censoring SONGS now are we? Garth Brooks has been Sussed Out, by God. *Another* pookin' LVF Roundhead. Where *ARE* the lads who stood with me when history was made? Aaah Romantic Ireland's dead and gone, and is all Bleary in her grave

"And isn't yer man just the one to be lecturing us.." Sure'n that he is, an' himself with his 17,874 posts since 1690 (thanks Joe O., good work) and only 3 of 'em mentioning Music and *them* re some Sassanach showband called "Mozart". But enough with these tired old "yer man" slurs already. Oy veh, what, you got some kind of a mind-set about Ireland and the Irish?

:)

Honored to be Recognized as Republican, notwithstanding what it is that I'm Tired of,

--old Michaeleen

Subject: RE: Intimidation and hate
From: smallpiper
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 07:59 PM

Hang on in there Ireland and you too Guest!

Subject: RE: Intimidation and hate
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 07:46 PM

first line should say, invective... sorry

Subject: RE: Intimidation and hate
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 07:45 PM

Hi Ireland:
THe fact is that many of us learned here to discuss things without invevtive, the Troll has not yet done that. Many years ago we had some very interesting disscussions of ... for example the Joe Doherty case. I worked in the firm which defended him up through the Supreme Court here, and on the other side was, for example, a British Barrister and a fellow named GeorgeH, a patriotic Englishman. At times we got cross with each other, but in the best tradition of good pub life, we bought each other a round (virtual toast mind you) and we grew to understand each other better. Some trolls, not for political reasons, but for deep seated hurt, want to throw more fuel on the fire, I doupt that hurt really is the hurt that you and I know from the war in Ireland. We both, I am sure, lost people we know on opposite sides.
The future lies, not in denying the past, but on putting more faith in the future. To hear each others storries of pain, and shake hands and build a new future together.
I find the loudest voices for hate have not been personaly close to the danger. I was a photojournalist in Belfast in the mid seventies, and I know personaly the fear, the loss, the anger.
I have a dear friend, his mentor was Seamus Costello. He spent years in Long Kesh, and took part in the war as a young man. For a time he was in the US. Twice I was with him when he broke down in tears when American Irish where talking tough bull about Ireland. He said that there is no worce decision one is forced to make than to take up arms to defend your community, and anyone who took pleasure in it, or bragged about it, or thought it was glorious was not a human being.
Ireland will make its own future. Anyone who sets out on that road, now that it suits England to allow for change without guns, by standing in the way of honest talk from the heart, should spend a few nights reading the essays of James Connolly - they are not a part of the future.
Hang in here Ireland, and don't get goaded into anger. This vertual round is on me, so make mine a diet coke, what the hell, it is a vertual round, I will have a nice foamy Guiness, what's yers?
Slan agus beannact, Is mise, le meas, Larry

Subject: RE: Intimidation and hate
From: Ireland
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 06:30 PM

Guest start another thread like your last one, When political solutions fail... watch it disappear not one reply what does that tell you.

If people agree with you why do they not post to your thread, maybe they are sick of the political crap the lack of replies to your post proves that.

I get the message from the others on the board, when are you going to.

Subject: RE: Intimidation and hate
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 06:04 PM

Garth Brooks song, eh? And isn't yer man just the one to be lecturing us on how wicked and wretched we are for being Irish.

With mawkishly sentimental attitudes like this in the cosmic ether, one is at a loss to imagine why the GFA failed.

Subject: RE: Intimidation and hate
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 05:45 PM

well i may have some friends in high places but i dont recall any important Mudcat types telling me the real names of anonymous guests. Do they know stuff like that? It wouldnt half be interesting to hear it.

Subject: ADD: Ireland (Davis/Yates/Brooks)
From: Ireland
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 05:31 PM

Here is why I call myself Ireland, no agendas no trying to rile people just identifying myself on a music site with the title of my favourite song.

Ireland by
(Stephanie Davis, Jenny Yates, Garth Brooks)

They say mother earth is breathing
With each wave that finds the shore
Her soul rises in the evening
For to open twilights door
Her eyes are the stars in heaven
Watching o'er us all the while
And her heart it is in Ireland
Deep within the Emerald Isle

We are forty against hundreds
In someone elses bloody war
We know not why were fighting
Or what we're dying for
They will storm us in the morning
When the sunlight turns to sky
Death is waiting for its dance now
Fate has sentenced us to die

Ireland I am coming home
I can see your rolling fields of green
And fences made of stone
I am reaching out won't you take my hand
I'm coming home Ireland

Oh the captain he lay bleeding
I can hear him calling me
These men are yours now for the leading
Show them to their destiny
And as I look up all around me
I see the ragged tired and torn
I tell them to make ready
'Cause we're not waiting for the morn

Ireland I am coming home
I can see your rolling fields of green
And fences made of stone
I am reaching out won't you take my hand
I'm coming home Ireland

Now the fog is deep and heavy
As we forge the dark and fear
We can hear their horses breathing
As in silence we draw near
There are no words to be spoken
Just a look to say good-bye
I draw a breath and night is broken
As I scream our battle cry

Ireland I am coming home
I can see your rolling fields of green
And fences made of stone
I am reaching out won't you take my hand
I'm coming home Ireland

I am home Ireland


To the people who accept guests opinion of me as a troll,I ask this if a pro IRA post is made which incites me is that not trolling or is it the majority rules. I did ask about political threads and there seemed to be those who welcome them.I did say I do not have much musically to offer,but was encouraged to join as I had contributed to the forum. I did ask before I joined.

To attack ones religion is indicative of the troubles in N.I. lo and behold the one who attacks me with lies and innuendos has a go at Larry and uses his religion to do so. That is hate this person cannot accept the others argument or counteract it without entering into the realms of religion. To attack the very essence of a person, his beliefs, is indefensible and the last resort of the bigot.

If people have a problem with what I post say so and if I have over stepped the mark, I will as I have done before apologise, as I said before this guest has brought the worst of the hate that ruins N.I. onto the net, and for my part in that I do offer my apologies.

Subject: RE: Intimidation and hate
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 04:52 PM

So Barnacle it comes to this! Making anti Roundhead jokes!!!! Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: Intimidation and hate
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 04:41 PM

Lads, trust who you will, but keep your powder dry.

Subject: RE: Intimidation and hate
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 04:36 PM

You actually raise an interesting point of fact, can one slander someone who remains anonamus? Do you all actuall exist? If you get a life, you can hang a name on it... Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: Intimidation and hate
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 04:35 PM

Oh, not drinker. I see. Of course, you'd rather keep your ad hominem attacks and character assassinations conveniently nebulous. Now that is a pure drop dead brilliant strategy Larry. Good to see you walking the high road, there.

Subject: RE: Intimidation and hate
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 04:33 PM

Actually, heavy drinking would improve this Hobbitt imearsureably! Larry

Subject: RE: Intimidation and hate
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 04:31 PM

There are a few 12 step programs. This particular Hobbitt is not a drinker... Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: Intimidation and hate
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 03:15 PM

Ah, you are no ad hominem attacker now are you Larry? You are a fine Friend, a Quaker of great integrity. The Crusading Defender of downtrodden minorities.

As to your advice about "not betting on a sure thing"...are you so sure of yourself that you have no problem accusing someone who dared to disagree with you of being an alcoholic in a public forum, as you have just done above? Here in another thread, where the person isn't present to defend against such a contemptuous public accusation?

Not a lot of integrity there, methinks.

It's nice you have respect for those of us who choose to post anonymously. I'm sure you won't be offended then, when I tell you the feeling isn't mutual.

Subject: RE: Intimidation and hate
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 02:49 PM

Dear Guest... Now may be a good time to stop... you know the advice about not betting on a sure thing. You have already made a number of asertions that I know not to be true, and unlike yourself, Ireland is a member, a single member, and in that we can judge what he says against past statements. A degree of anonimity is sensible on line, I am a rather public person, so I don't mind folks knowing where to find me. As to being a completely anonimous troll, well, not signing at all leads to the assumption that you may be just that. Not every loyalist is in the organge lodge or is even a bigot. As you know, I am a naitonalist, to the degree that a Quaker can be in favor of any nation. But the fact is, that we all learn as we listen.
As you being the same anonimous troll on the other post, that troll is not Skeptic, but rather a certain wee hobit troll, who lives in New York and often uses the same rehtorical style and stock phrases, and I actually know who it is... and in fact, I am not kidding when I state the twelve steps are not doing it for that particular troll. I hope, in fact, that that troll seeks more serrious help - but, I have nothing but respect for all of you who don't even use a traceable tag... and very little of that.
Ireland uses a tag which we know him by, and shows a lot more integrity as a result. Even Gargoyle, though a guest, signs his statements so we know where he is coming from. Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: Intimidation and hate
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 02:34 PM

Well now, having read the recent threads on the Traveller case being ardently defended in the national press by Mr. Otway, I'm guessing "Ireland" won his CD from Larry because Larry assumed there was only one anonymous/pseudonymous guest posting on Mudcat challenging the questionable assertions of certain Mudcat members.

Tsk, tsk Larry. If you thought I was Guest Skeptic, you should have just PMed Greg Stephens before mailing off the CD to Conrad--oops, I mean "Ireland".

Greg has the amazing superpower to psychically identify the person behind every anonymous guest posting to Mudcat. He could have told you that Guest Skeptic and Dave Bulmer (or is it his wife?), are two totally different guests. He knows full well about the Irish Dave Bulmer (or is it Bulmer's wife?) who regularly posts here anonymously and with pseudonyms, because his trusty Mudcat friends told him such was so via their PMs telling him who all us anon guests truly are.

In fact, they will even provide the IP addresses of suspect anonymous guests to you upon request via the PM or private email, right Joe Offer?

---

Sorry, friend, we don't provide that sort of information. I don't think that would be a wise thing for us to do. That sort of information is considered privileged, and is available to only a very few people. Even the JoeClones are limited in what they can access.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Intimidation and hate
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 10:30 AM

"Ireland" can't respond to Larry's kind offer, because Larry would then find out "Ireland" resides in Baltimore, not Ireland as he has claimed here.

And Larry, I agree that Irish history is complicated. But that is because I actually know Irish history, and don't need you to preach to me about it.

As to whether or not the Orange Order and loyalist paramilitaries can fairly be referred to as bigots, well...some things really are that simple Larry. Following your line of reasoning, the Klan was really a bunch of nice folks who just saw things differently than the rest of us, and to call them bigots would be engaging in ad hominem attacks.

Subject: RE: Intimidation and hate
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 10:16 AM

CD problem solved, All, things OK on that matter, and soon Ireland will be enjoying abit of the ol' Sorcha Dorcha - and Dan Charging Hawk. Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: Intimidation and hate
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 10:12 AM

Ireland-i am sorry to hear that you feel unable to trust people here, but here is my experinece of Mudcat, I found this site a couple of years ago whilst looking for the words to a folk song, I joined up and made many good friend here, and I mean real friends that I have met, this time last year I drove to Wales, a round trip of 450 miles, to attend a small gathering of Mudcat members, the real friendship shown to me and everybody there was amazing, I have met around 200 members of this site, [it was quite easy for me as there are arounf 50 of us in Hull)!, and I can honestly say that I would trust every single one of them.In fact, I moved to a new house last year and issued an open invitation to any members that wanted to visit, {see thread "Housewarming party in Hull).I have exchanged addresses with quite a few people here and have had no problem, I have no idea what Guest{s}, said in the Northern Ireland thread to frighten you, as I avoid political threads, as in my experience they tend to end up as an argument and cause bad feeling.I have got a copy of Larry's CD, as he was kind enough to send me a copy last year, perhaps if you still wish to accept his kind offer, you could get him to send it to your plave of work? I am sure you will enjoy his CD if you choose to accept it, as it is very good.Though for what it is worth, I tend to agree with Guest above, and suspect that it is possible that you came here just to stir shit.john

Subject: RE: Intimidation and hate
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 10:03 AM

Anonomus Guest.
You should not jump to conclusion that because someone sees things differently they are a bigot. Irish history is complicated and complicated by censorship. That's why we don't get into the ad hominum attacks here. Now, things swing about a little, when I say that there is anti Gypsy prejudice in the US, some defensive types say that I am prejudice against non - Romani people, jeeze give it a break folks. Keep it friendly, you don't know the self control it takes not to flame one or two people who show a rathre strong anti Roma or Traveller sentiment here often. Hang in there Ireland. Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: Intimidation and hate
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 09:53 AM

What would be more interesting, of course, would be to know how many postings GUEST has made, and on what subjects, and under what names.

Subject: RE: Intimidation and hate
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 09:42 AM

Enough with your tired old republican slurs Pooka.

Subject: RE: Intimidation and hate
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 09:37 AM

SINSULL and WYSIWYG/Susan have nailed this one. Thank you both.

I am the guest poster who accused "Ireland" of being a troll, hence this whinging thread, claiming intimidation and hatred. I believe he has joined as a member under this name merely to stir shit on the Northern Ireland threads.

This poster has posted in excess of 65 posts since 6 October under the Mudcat member name "Ireland". Of those posts, all but one or two were to threads on Northern Ireland. In those threads, he has been expressing a very controversial point of view, arguing with some well respected Mudcat members who happen to be very knowledgeable about Northern Ireland. Nothing to do with music, folk, blues or otherwise.

The arguments he is making reflect the position of someone associated with Ian Paisley's UDP, and it's shadow paramilitary organization the LVF. If you know anything about Northern Ireland, you understand just how controversial these opinions might be. If you don't know anything about Northern Ireland, I'll give a quick equivalent, which I also used in the Northern Ireland thread. "Ireland's" position is roughly equivalent to a South African Afrikaaner claiming that because the ANC was a "terrorist" organization, the Sharpeville massacre was justified.

When someone comes into this forum and posts ONLY to controversial political threads, making highly controversial statements as "Ireland" has been doing, I view them as nothing more than a troll. I said so. The entire Mudcat membership is free to disagree with me. But saying so is neither intimidation or hate.

But then, Mudcat prejudices against anon guests blind most members to the facts in cases like this. "Ireland" joined as a member quite cleverly--to get Mudcat members on his side merely by the fact of his membership. He has been politely and nicely saying things intended to hurt and wound Irish nationalist Mudcat members, and push our buttons. He also claims to have been disabled by the IRA. So just what sort of an agenda does everyone suppose this guy is here to push?

If the Mudcat membership wishes to welcome people of that ilk, it is of course their prerogative to do so.

Congratulations on being duped by, I'm guessing by the posts, Conrad Bladey, the Internet's most notorious Orange bigot, and exploiter of "Irish traditions". He even has his so-called books for same at Amazon, folks--copied almost word for word (without due credit, and likely in violation of copyright I might add) from books published by now long dead Irish folklorists.

Subject: RE: Intimidation and hate
From: The Pooka
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 01:10 AM

Hang in there, Ireland. Nononono not Down the Short Rope; you know what I mean. :) Ya done good with anonymous bold fenian Guest, but lave 'im alone now. I hope you do arrange for comfortable secure delivery of the music parcel as suggested above -- and pay heed to the good advice of the wyse WYSIWYG and the wiseguy greg stephens. :) Do some more music. The politics will always be there too, waiting in the wings. (Yeah look who's talkin'. Physician heal thyself. O hi, Dr. Mark. :)

Subject: RE: Intimidation and hate
From: GUEST,curmudgeon
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 07:00 PM

N.B., this post will iist me a guest. It takes a lot less time to post to this Mudcat address than to exchange cookies with Bat Goddess. I am lazy, but also a poor typist and weak on eyesight -- Tom

Subject: RE: Intimidation and hate
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 06:44 PM

Yes I agree with Wyssymagig thingy,Ireland.Post to music threads and get stuck in.Let's hear what you think about the meaning of folk, pentatonic scales and who wrote Blowing in the Wind. And lets face it, calling yourelf Ireland is a bit of a red rag to a bull in these parts, possibly even worse than choosing Dave Bulmer.

Subject: RE: Intimidation and hate
From: alanabit
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 06:11 PM

There's always someone who can say it better than me...

Subject: RE: Intimidation and hate
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 06:05 PM

I'll tell ya what, Ireland, if ya' trust your senses you'll be just fine. Heck, most of the folks here at Mudact are great folks and I've had the privildge of meeting many them in person. And my life is enriched with having these "friends" in my life. Heck, there are folks who I disagree with on just about any subject that I would have no fear of having in my home.

Just like the real world, there are some angry folks who are Hell bemnt on bullying people. Tune 'em out, just like you'd do in you everyday life. But don't throw the baby out with the bath water or it will be your loss.

Bobert

Subject: RE: Intimidation and hate
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 06:04 PM

Ireland, as a new member, it's going to be a challenge if you jump headfirst into the most divisive topics immediately upon arriving. Many of us find that by putting the music first, the rest of all this can become handle-able.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Intimidation and hate
From: alanabit
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 05:27 PM

I've not read the Ireland threads. I - not unlike many Brits - have Irish and British blood in me. I have not got time to go through them all and my views reflect a complex understanding/misunderstanding of the situation. I have had the considerable pleasure of exchanging views and music with fine musicians - and I believe fine people -like InObu, Greg Stephens, Khandu, Robin2, MichaelR, McGrath of Harlow and Steve Rich. I have never met these people face to face, but I look forward to meeting all of them. I may one day have a bad experience with someone on Mudcat, but it will not make me forget the many good ones. That would be giving more importance to the ones I disliked.

Subject: RE: Intimidation and hate
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 05:17 PM

Well, I guess I'd better clarify what I said. Certainly, there are many people who post as guests who are fine people.

"Guest" posts are marked as such because there is no guarantee that the person posting under that name is actually that person. Our registration ensures a certain amount of trust and identification, although it's not ironclad. I would suggest that you shouldn't buy a used car from a Mudcat Guest - unless you've worked out some other way to identify who you're talking with.

So, yes, "guest" posts should not be trusted beyond the level of logical integrity of the particular post you are reading. That's not to say that guests are not welcome here, or that they do not make a significant contribution at times.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Intimidation and hate
From: InOBU
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 05:00 PM

Thanks for all the notes of trust. Ireland, if you feel safer, send me the address of a local pub or church that will accept the CD for you, I think you'll enjoy the music. We on the cat have had a grand time sending each other our bands. Cheers and welcome in, Larry

Subject: RE: Intimidation and hate
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 04:56 PM

"intimidation and bullying"???? Guest has the right and possibly the obligation to disagree with you, me, or anyone else. I was perfectly willing to read your arguments and his with an open mind. This thread however reduces your status to troll. Troll on and please don't give Larry your address. He is a good, decent man who ought not to have his time or his music wasted.

Subject: RE: Intimidation and hate
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 04:49 PM

Ireland, we have a wonderful sytem of Personal Messages here in which we can talk personally to people. In the PM system you know for sure that you are talking to who it says in the message, not so with the Guest title. Sure, many people use the Guest login and a consistent name, and many times a member looses his/her cookie and appears as a guest. But then there are nasty people who hide behind the guest moniker in anonymity so they can say nasty things.

When you download software on the Internet you usually get a certificate verifying that the site is really the site you think it is. Our names here are similar to that. You can trust people here whom you've met through their words, both publicly and privately...when you can be sure they are who they say they are.

Subject: RE: Intimidation and hate
From: Willie-O
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 04:45 PM

Owen, I'm pretty sure Joe was referring to anonymous guests. You're quite right, Mudcat has had some very fine guests.

As to your second point, you might want to restate it so its clearer, if you want it understood. Whose motives?


Willie-O

Subject: RE: Intimidation and hate
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 04:41 PM

You'll be OK with Larry. Be aware, ireland, there are always a few people around like the GUEST youve crossed swords with. These people are mostly not actually arguing, though it may feel as if they are. They are actually just getting off on their considerable skill in finding the right buttons to press to annoy people. Dont let it get to you. The one you havedealt withis an established master, who often appears on irish threads in various guises, but also on Dave Bulmer/Nic Jones threads.Often simultaneously arguing with him(her?)self under different pseudonyms. Ignoreit, admire the skill. He annoyed you, didnt he? Thats what he does. Everybody needs a hobby. Pity he has to practise it here, but there you go.
Thank you for posting your interesting points,keep them coming.(I admit I tend to disagree with a lot of what you say).

Subject: RE: Intimidation and hate
From: GUEST,Owen Murphy
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 04:34 PM

No one who posts as a guest is supposed to trusted here? Since when? A lot of very good contributions are made here by guests.

As to the title of this thread, I read most every thread on Northern Ireland at Mudcat. I've read the one in question, and think Ireland is a bit cut up over the guest being spot on about his motives.

Good riddance, Ireland.

Subject: RE: Intimidation and hate
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 04:15 PM

If you send Larry a PM, it should be safe. He recently sent me a copy of the CD.

Nisi illegitimi carborundum est.

Subject: RE: Intimidation and hate
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 03:49 PM

Don't let the bastards win...

Subject: RE: Intimidation and hate
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 03:48 PM

Well, I guess I have to say that it takes some time to get used to life on the Internet. After a while, you learn who you can trust, and who you can't. Those you can't, you learn to take with a grain of salt, or to ignore completely.

I think most people here will tell you that you can trust Larry, and that you're a fool to trust anybody who posts as a guest.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: Intimidation and hate
From: Ireland
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 02:50 PM

With example of guest in the NI Mess thread and his attempt at intimidation and bullying others who do not share his/her views has one real consequence for mudcat.

I for one will not be buying a single item which reveals my personal address to anyone, guest has successfully introduced an aire of mistrust to this site.

Larry has ask for me to email my address so he can send me a CD,I will not take the chance,this uneasy feeling is what terrorists feed on and what guests employs to make sure that his way is the only way to think.

Should this be let to continue?